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A question for Trinitarians.

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posted on Jul, 17 2010 @ 11:41 PM
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Ummm no dice, Jesus claimed divinity. Daniel 7 attributed the Son of Man to have divine attributes. The apostles treated Him as God, called Him such. And the writings of the apostles disciples claimed divinity for Christ as well.

So you're left with 3 options: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord.

Either Jesus knew He was not God and lied about it, or thought He was God and clearly was not, or He is Lord.

Jesus Christ is Lord.




posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 




Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Ummm no dice, Jesus claimed divinity.


Jesus is divine in the sense that he is the “son of God” and had the spirit of the living God dwelling inside him but Jesus never claimed to be God/Father. Only God, living and speaking through Jesus, claims to be God/Father.



Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Daniel 7 attributed the Son of Man to have divine attributes.


Yes and he does have divine attributes because firstly, he is Gods son and secondly, the spirit of God was living in him also and was one with Jesus spirit.




Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So you're left with 3 options: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord.

Either Jesus knew He was not God and lied about it, or thought He was God and clearly was not, or He is Lord.



I love the C.S Lewis book “Mere Christianity” it was one of the first books I read, in my early journey of discovering Christianity.

Jesus was only Lord, in the sense that he had the spirit of the lord God living in him. This does not however make Jesus God because Jesus also has his own voice, which can clearly be seen speaking through many chapters in the four gospels. Jesus is his own person/spirit as well. Jesus actually sits at the right hand of God as I am typing this now, how is that possible, if we say Jesus is God?

The trinity is a doctrine which came from men, to try to explain the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is no signpost in the Bible, which says, “here is the trinity”.

Anyone who accepts the trinity doctrine, is automatically signing up to a contradiction. In fact, trinitarions freely admit, that a contadiction exists. The following verses are just but a few examples of this…

John 14:28

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’t If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


Mark 13:32

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."


John 1:18

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."


John 14:28

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


John 17:20-23

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."


John 20:17

"Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


Acts 7:55-56

"But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."


John 17:1-3


Jesus Prays for Himself
After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.


Matthew 27:46

"Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?""


The official Trinity line to explain the above verses and other contradictions, goes roughly as follows…


”the doctrine of the Trinity is a deep mystery/paradox in itself, that cannot be fathomed by the finite mind."



So essentially, what believers in the trinity doctrine are saying, is that we believe in this doctrine that came from men, as the absolute truth, and that even though it leads to a contradiction, that’s fine, because God is a mystery.

Personally, I refuse to accept that…

As I pointed out in my previous post, when you begin to understand that God the Father, lived and worked through Jesus and that Jesus is a person in his own right as well i.e. the son of God, then all the other verses begin to make sense and more importantly, it leaves no contradictions.



- JC


[edit on 18-7-2010 by Joecroft]



posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 03:42 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



Jesus is divine in the sense that he is the “son of God” and had the spirit of the living God dwelling inside him but Jesus never claimed to be God/Father. Only God, living and speaking through Jesus, claims to be God/Father.
Think about this,How can Jesus have "The Spirit of the living god" Dwelling inside him?. How can God being a spirit,Which he is, (John 4:24
God is a Spirit) have a spirit? It's an impossibility.A spirit is whole it self. Jesus is God!.


Yes and he does have divine attributes because firstly, he is Gods son and secondly, the spirit of God was living in him also and was one with Jesus spirit.

You either have attributes of that which is God.(who only God can possess) or you dont.Again God does not have a spirit.He is a spirit. Think very hard. How can a spirit possess a spirit? What you are saying is that Jesus possessed two spirits. That of which is his and that of which is Gods. only matter is divisible.Spirit is not.Spirit is whole of its self.



So essentially, what believers in the trinity doctrine are saying, is that we believe in this doctrine that came from men, as the absolute truth, and that even though it leads to a contradiction, that’s fine, because God is a mystery.


This is not so.There is perhaps a mystery- Define mystery. That of which we do not-not know anything , but to that of which we do not know everything.Only that of which God has revealed, And God has revealed this.


Personally, I refuse to accept that…
By all means.However, instead of pointing to scripture which was written with intellect and not imagination try to examine the scripture with intellect and not imagination.Maybe you would come to the same conclusion as our church fathers and myself.


As I pointed out in my previous post, when you begin to understand that God the Father, lived and worked through Jesus and that Jesus is a person in his own right as well i.e. the son of God, then all the other verses begin to make sense and more importantly, it leaves no contradictions.
If it were that easy than the mysteries of God would be solved like yesterdays crossword puzzle.Do you think that the eternal God, all knowing and loving would be so easy to figure out?lol

[edit on 18-7-2010 by oliveoil]



posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
Think about this,How can Jesus have "The Spirit of the living god" Dwelling inside him?.


same way as i can.
same was as Joe can, and does.
same was as you could, if you believed it possible


And all those who are guided by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not get the spirit of servants again to put you in fear, but the spirit of sons was given to you, by which we say, Abba, Father. The Spirit is witness with our spirit that we are children of God:
(Romans 8:14-16)


that's what it is all about, oliveoil!!
joining with Jesus, with GOD, through the gift of GOD's spirit, given by GOD to us so that we may also be children of GOD!



don't you want to be a child of GOD, too?
i mean WOW you're missing out if you say NO.
please don't miss out - join the family


Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(John 14:23)


that verse also contradicts Jesus being GOD, because if so, he would have only said "I will come unto him and make MY abode..."
but Jesus said WE and OUR
we never means i
we means i and another


How can God being a spirit,Which he is, (John 4:24
God is a Spirit) have a spirit? It's an impossibility.A spirit is whole it self.


GOD is the source of Spirit - which is life - and GOD distributes out portions of his Spirit to whomever he decides and in whatever measure he decides!

there are NO impossibilities with GOD!


You either have attributes of that which is God.(who only God can possess) or you dont.


who said only GOD can possess GOD's attributes?
GOD?
nope
do they tell you that in your church?

Jesus told us to be perfect just like our Father in Heaven is perfect.
obviously GOD is willing to share his wonderful godliness with his children!


Again God does not have a spirit.He is a spirit. Think very hard. How can a spirit possess a spirit? What you are saying is that Jesus possessed two spirits. That of which is his and that of which is Gods. only matter is divisible.Spirit is not.Spirit is whole of its self.


i don't know how you are seeing this as something that is logical? you're running away with it, and it seems to be to be somewhat driven by desperation. why do you prefer a separation over a union? why don't you want what GOD wants for you? to be close to him?


This is not so.There is perhaps a mystery- Define mystery.


"A religious truth that is incomprehensible to reason and knowable only through divine revelation."


That of which we do not-not know anything , but to that of which we do not know everything.Only that of which God has revealed, And God has revealed this.


revealed what? the trinity doctrine? or the thing about being a spirit is not the same as having a spirit....or whatever it is you were trying to explain.


GOD didn't reveal either one of those things because they are not consistent with his other revelations. men came up with those ideas, at least the trinity idea - this i know for sure. there is something to recite that defines that doctrine which is a red flag for human fabrication - GOD doesn't dole out creeds or expect any kind of lip service for any reason whatsoever.

GOD doesn't fit inside any box that could ever exist, not even a 3-lock box approved by a papal bull!

the mystery can and will be known
Mark 4:11
Romans 16:25
1 Corinthians 2:7
Ephesians 1:9 and 3:9
Colossians 1:26
just to name a few...

GOD is making his mystery known! just like promised!


Maybe you would come to the same conclusion as our church fathers and myself.


given the choice of agreeing with you and the church fathers vs. being drawn into agreement with THE Father...i'm sticking to my first choice!

counting all the verses in the old and new testaments, the result is an odd number - meaning there is one verse that is exactly in the center of the whole bible. it is literally the core of, and the key to, understanding the mystery - and even the mundane - everything, really.

this is it (Psalms 118:8):

It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.




If it were that easy than the mysteries of God would be solved like yesterdays crossword puzzle.Do you think that the eternal God, all knowing and loving would be so easy to figure out?lol


sure. if one of his children wants to get to know him...he's more than willing to make it so!

none of us can solve the divine mystery, for sure you are right about that.
but GOD can reveal it to anyone he wills - in parts or all of it, a little at a time or whatever he decides! and he does and he will!

all you gotta do is ask!
if you want to be GOD's friend, then you will certainly be friends with GOD.

but you listen to men who do not tell you this truth. i don't think they are withholding information or anything like that. i think they just don't know this truth, either. probably they listened to men, too, who didn't know it.

but i want you to know that which they know not. but you have to trust your Father in heaven, not the fathers in your church. it's your choice and no one else's!



posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
So essentially, what believers in the trinity doctrine are saying, is that we believe in this doctrine that came from men, as the absolute truth, and that even though it leads to a contradiction, that’s fine, because God is a mystery.

Personally, I refuse to accept that…


i do, too!

good for you, Joe!

when we accept man-made doctrines, no longer is our "throne room" unoccupied and awaiting our King, the King of the Universe.

certainly GOD is a mystery but not one that will never be revealed - exactly the opposite - straight from Jesus mouth to our ears, we know that all that is hidden will also be revealed when the time comes.

i'd rather just wait on GOD to show us - i can't wait to see what's underneath the mystery!

i kind of have an idea but i'm not letting on - besides it's probably not even close and even if it is, its just the tiniest tip of the iceberg.

whatever it is...it is going to blow our minds!


As I pointed out in my previous post, when you begin to understand that God the Father, lived and worked through Jesus and that Jesus is a person in his own right as well i.e. the son of God, then all the other verses begin to make sense and more importantly, it leaves no contradictions.


but it is only by having God the Father living and working through you that you understand this concept that many can't yet grasp.

you understand the trail that Jesus blazed because you are following that same trail.



you're the most divine giant ape that i've ever met!




posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 





Originally posted by oliveoil
Think about this,How can Jesus have "The Spirit of the living god" Dwelling inside him?. How can God being a spirit,Which he is, (John 4:24
God is a Spirit) have a spirit?


Yes you are right, God is spirit and his spirit was in Jesus…

Jesus was the first born of all creation and has his own spirit.

Matthew 3:16-17

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."


When Jesus was baptized, the spirit of God came upon him and became one with Jesus spirit. This is why Jesus says, “I and the Father are one”



Originally posted by oliveoil
You either have attributes of that which is God.(who only God can possess) or you don’t.


Well, other biblical passages mention that Jesus is in the likeness of God, so Jesus does posses some attributes of God. Also Gods who is spirit was in and one with Jesus. So essentially God was walking around through Jesus (Man), but Jesus (spirit) was not absorbed by the Father. Jesus (spirit) still existed within the Father, and this is why we hear two voices throughout the four Gospels, one of which is Jesus and the other is the Father/God.



Originally posted by oliveoil
Again God does not have a spirit. He is a spirit. Think very hard. How can a spirit possess a spirit?.


Yes but how do you define a person?

A person isn’t really there flesh but the spirit that lives in them. We all have are own spirit, which is really who and what we are.



Originally posted by oliveoil
What you are saying is that Jesus possessed two spirits. That of which is his and that of which is Gods.


Yes the body/flesh of the man named Jesus, had the son of Gods spirit in him (i.e. Jesus own spirit) and the spirit of God as well.



Originally posted by oliveoil
only matter is divisible.Spirit is not.Spirit is whole of its self.


How do you know that spirit is not divisible? And what bearing does this have on what I am saying? lol

How do you know “Spirit is whole of its self”?
Even if Spirit is whole of itself, don’t you think that the Father God is quite capable of entering another persons or Jesus spirit?

I mean it’s like your prepared to accept the whole trinity deal, the immaculate conception and Jesus miracles etc etc but when it comes to believing what Gods spirit can do, it’s suddenly a no go area lol




Originally posted by oliveoil
This is not so.There is perhaps a mystery- Define mystery. That of which we do not-not know anything , but to that of which we do not know everything.Only that of which God has revealed, And God has revealed this.


Well, the Trinitarians, have already defined the mystery for me lol.

I will be the first to admit that there are still many mysteries that have yet to be revealed in the bible, especially in the field of interpretations of literal vs allegorical verses and the mysteries of prophecies in revelations. Although having said all that, I think it is a lot different when dealing with the trinity because of all the obvious contradictions that it creates.



Originally posted by oliveoil
By all means.However, instead of pointing to scripture which was written with intellect and not imagination try to examine the scripture with intellect and not imagination. Maybe you would come to the same conclusion as our church fathers and myself.


And what exactly is the conclusion of the church fathers and yourself?



Originally posted by oliveoil
If it were that easy than the mysteries of God would be solved like yesterdays crossword puzzle.Do you think that the eternal God, all knowing and loving would be so easy to figure out?lol



LOL

No, because it has taken over 2000 years of fighting, murdering and the creation of hundreds of denominations, each with there own unique take on it, before someone finally figured it all out lol



- JC


[edit on 18-7-2010 by Joecroft]



posted on Jul, 18 2010 @ 09:14 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 



Hey queenannie…

Thanks for answering my questions above, you have some very enlightening answers…




Originally posted by queenannie38

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(John 14:23)


that verse also contradicts Jesus being GOD, because if so, he would have only said "I will come unto him and make MY abode..."
but Jesus said WE and OUR
we never means i
we means i and another



Wow…you actually get it!

Wooohooo


You are the first person I have met who actually understands it…

I knew there was a reason I had to add you too my friends list…





Originally posted by queenannie38
but it is only by having God the Father living and working through you that you understand this concept that many can't yet grasp.

you understand the trail that Jesus blazed because you are following that same trail.




Yes I believe you are right…I recently received the Holy Spirit while reading John 14 one night and I experienced what was described in John 7:38.




Originally posted by queenannie38
you're the most divine giant ape that i've ever met!


LOL
Thanks…I appreciate that, although I’m more of angel than an ape…


- JC



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



Yes you are right, God is spirit and his spirit was in Jesus

Here you go again. You are asserting that God who is spirit, has a spirit that he can send out like an impersonal energy force.Your distinction between matter and spirit is from imagination not intellect and most certainly not scripture.The difference between spirit of a man and that of God is that mans spirit is finite and fused with matter (a body) God has no body and is pure spirit which is also Infinite.Matter occupies space. Spirit does not. Ones thoughts and knowledge are considered to be that which we call spirit.They have no physical attributes whatsoever.Material things can be broken down into lesser parts.Any part of a material being is not the whole of its self.
Spiritual beings however are the whole of themselves. They have no parts that can be broken down.
Now back to your statement.' Gods Spirit was in Jesus'. God is the supreme spirit. Infinite in knowledge and love.There can only be one supreme being infinite in knowledge and love.Now lets look at what Jesus said.Luke 10:22 and Matthew 11:27
22"(A)All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and (B)no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
27"(A)All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father (B)except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
These passages can only mean certainly that The Father and Jesus share the same knowledge.
INFINITE KNOWLEDGE
Your statement should read God is spirit. Jesus' spirit, who is God which has been revealed


[edit on 19-7-2010 by oliveoil]



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



Jesus was the first born of all creation and has his own spirit.

This statement is true however, Again your imagination deceives your intellect.
As to what scripture says you are not fully examining it and thus only receiving partial information.
The scripture you quote is Colossians 1:15 however you left out a huge part.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
And if you care to take if further,
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. What do you supose this means? THRONES DOMINIONS RULERS AUTHORITIES.. VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE.- is God not but the ultimate invisible throne, dominion, ruler, and authority? Yes Jesus has his own spirit. That of which is God.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



When Jesus was baptized, the spirit of God came upon him and became one with Jesus spirit. This is why Jesus says, “I and the Father are one”


Actually no. Matthew 3:16 reads like this: And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:.Intellect has already told us that God being a spirit does no have a spirit. This dove like creature would be the Holy Spirit.The third person in the blessed trinity. This is again part of what is revealed to us as what god is.



the spirit of God came upon him and became one with Jesus spirit. This is why Jesus says, “I and the Father are one
How do you base your theory on this ass-nine statement? lol. Again God has no spirit. God is whole within himself. God being spirit(infinite) cannot merge with a lesser of infinite spirit. That would make the lesser spirit infinite which would be God wholly.Now thats a real contradiction.
- Jesus is Wholly God



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



And what exactly is the conclusion of the church fathers and yourself?

That they were not exactly content with what the bible said in a literal sense and or an allegorical sense but a logical sense. They actually used there mind (which is spirit) to reason.
John 4:24
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 


Queenannie,
You are a delight to ones imagination and a colorful soul to endure. However, you bring no real concrete truths to your reason and your intellect concerning scripture is anything but factual. When your serious about theory and want to learn something worth learning let me know. OO-



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
Yes I believe you are right…I recently received the Holy Spirit while reading John 14 one night and I experienced what was described in John 7:38.


wow!
that is awesome, Joe!
i am so thrilled to hear that.

life is all-new, isn't it?
same, but different...
indescribable.




LOL
Thanks…I appreciate that, although I’m more of angel than an ape…



yes, you are.

but i've always had a soft spot for King Kong!
the first time i ever saw that movie, as a little girl, i cried for him!
and i never saw it again and don't plan to!

i'm a person who's never EVER watched or read "Ole Yeller" or "Where the Red Fern Grows"!

i can't bear to torment my soft heart.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by queenannie38
 


Queenannie,
You are a delight to ones imagination and a colorful soul to endure. However, you bring no real concrete truths to your reason and your intellect concerning scripture is anything but factual. When your serious about theory and want to learn something worth learning let me know. OO-


thank you for your kind compliments and offer, oliveoil. i enjoy your soul, too, truth be known.

however, i'll have to respectfully decline your generous offer of helping me learn theory - i've got a teacher already who prefers the more direct 'hands-on' approach on a 'one-on-one' basis.

but from what i understand, my teacher's schedule is never so full that another student is not always welcome to approach!

*always room for one more* is the motto of the school.



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by queenannie38
 



- i've got a teacher already who prefers the more direct 'hands-on' approach on a 'one-on-one' basis.
And let me guess this teacher would be Jesus.Looks like you missed a class or two...lol still in all I delight in your folly.peace QA38

[edit on 19-7-2010 by oliveoil]



posted on Jul, 19 2010 @ 07:20 PM
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All that Jesus is, is based on being born of a virgin yet he was what, the 12 human born of a virgin.

Many of the earlier religions had the same condition to their Gods.

Regards
DL



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Greatest I am
All that Jesus is, is based on being born of a virgin yet he was what, the 12 human born of a virgin.


any human being born of a virgin would be a female.
there is no 'Y' in parthenogenesis.


but i'm curious as to why you say that all Jesus is, is based on his birth to a virgin?



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 04:42 AM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 


the dove is the symbol of the son, lead by the spirit of Truth (=Truth=Life=God)
glorification is the final seal of the prophet,
and is the son becoming one with the fathers will.

the present teaching do not understand this difference very well.

when jesus was glorified, he spoke from the father as one,
before he was the son, that actually means, not having choice,
there only one best thing you can do in every "choice"



posted on Jul, 20 2010 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by oliveoil
 






Originally posted by Joecroft
Yes you are right, God is spirit and his spirit was in Jesus




Originally posted by oliveoil
Here you go again. You are asserting that God who is spirit, has a spirit that he can send out like an impersonal energy force.


I’m not saying that God who is spirit has a spirit. What I am saying, is that the son of God i.e. the first born of all creation (Jesus who was created by God) has his own spirit, which occupied the body of the man named Jesus.

And when Jesus was baptized, God, who is spirit, entered Jesus and became one with Jesus spirit. So what I am really saying, is that, God/Father and the son of God, were both walking around (as one) in the body of Jesus.



Originally posted by oliveoil
Your distinction between matter and spirit is from imagination not intellect and most certainly not scripture.The difference between spirit of a man and that of God is that mans spirit is finite and fused with matter (a body) God has no body and is pure spirit which is also Infinite.

Matter occupies space. Spirit does not. Ones thoughts and knowledge are considered to be that which we call spirit.They have no physical attributes whatsoever.Material things can be broken down into lesser parts.Any part of a material being is not the whole of its self.
Spiritual beings however are the whole of themselves. They have no parts that can be broken down.



Where does the bible define the spirit, in the way you are describing it above?

IMO you are limiting what Gods spirit is cable of doing, based on some rigid ideas, that cannot be verified and that don’t appear to be scriptural.



Originally posted by oliveoil
Now back to your statement.' Gods Spirit was in Jesus'. God is the supreme spirit. Infinite in knowledge and love.There can only be one supreme being infinite in knowledge and love.Now lets look at what Jesus said.Luke 10:22 and Matthew 11:27
22"(A)All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and (B)no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
27"(A)All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father (B)except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
These passages can only mean certainly that The Father and Jesus share the same knowledge.
INFINITE KNOWLEDGE



Wrong, because if they both share the same knowledge, then how do you explain the following verse…

Mark 13:32

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.




Originally posted by oliveoil
The scripture you quote is Colossians 1:15 however you left out a huge part.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
And if you care to take if further,
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. What do you supose this means? THRONES DOMINIONS RULERS AUTHORITIES.. VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE.- is God not but the ultimate invisible throne, dominion, ruler, and authority? Yes Jesus has his own spirit. That of which is God.


Wrong again…Jesus is the first born of all creation, which should give you a clue lol

creation = created

born = not God

You see God has always existed, he was never created and was never born.

Only the son of God, can fit that description…




Originally posted by oliveoil
Actually no. Matthew 3:16 reads like this: And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:.Intellect has already told us that God being a spirit does no have a spirit.


You keep making the statement that “God who is spirit has no spirit!”, this doesn’t make any sense.

Allow me to make it easier to understand, God who is spirit, entered Jesus and became one with Jesus (the son of God) spirit.



Originally posted by oliveoil
This dove like creature would be the Holy Spirit. The third person in the blessed trinity. This is again part of what is revealed to us as what god is.


This may be the wrong time to bring this up, but there is no “third person” of the blessed trinity. No unique third person that is, because I believe that the Holy Spirit aka the Spirit of God, is a person but that the person is God and not a third new entity/person.




Originally posted by Joecroft
the spirit of God came upon him and became one with Jesus spirit. This is why Jesus says, “I and the Father are one



Originally posted by oliveoil
How do you base your theory on this ass-nine statement? lol.


I don’t base my whole theory on that one statement…there’s more than just that…anyway I was merely pointing out that, at the moment Jesus was baptized, he became one with the Father/God.




Originally posted by oliveoil
Again God has no spirit. God is whole within himself. God being spirit(infinite) cannot merge with a lesser of infinite spirit. That would make the lesser spirit infinite which would be God wholly.



There you go again with that statement, “God has no spirit”…

Once again I think you are limiting just what God/Father can and cant do concerning spirit. I don’t believe what you have said above, has been clearly pointed out in the bible (all things regarding spirit) and therefore I don’t think it can be used to dismiss what I have been saying.

Instead of attacking and trying to find contradictions in what I have written in my last few posts, perhaps you should try defending the contradictions in the trinity, that clearly already exist.

Even if you don’t except what I am saying here, there are many other non-Trinitarian doctrines out there, which are IMO a lot closer to the biblical truth in understanding the relationship between, Farther, son and Holy Spirit. Two I would recommend looking into, are the Jehovah witnesses, the Mormons and the Seventh Day Adventists.



- JC



posted on Jul, 21 2010 @ 12:39 AM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


that was good, Joe.

a hard thing to explain, but i think you and i think along the same lines on this issue.

i see Jesus spirit as GOD's soul.
and GOD's soul becomes Jesus' spirit.
i don't think we had the opportunity to gain our spirit until Jesus gained his, through GOD.

as you say, GOD sent his Spirit to join with Jesus - in my mind's eye, i picture it as GOD coming from infinity stretches out tendrils of spirit and each goes to one of us here on Earth, until everyone gets theirs.

i think of the trinity as being Spirit, Soul, and Body just as man has (now).

when we are not in a body, GOD withdraws that tendril but it is our tendril - our living soul, maybe. Adam lost his living soul and so did we. Jesus gained his back and so will we.


Before ever the silver cord is cut, or the vessel of gold is broken, or the pot is broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the water-hole; And the dust goes back to the earth as it was, and the spirit goes back to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:6-7)


the silver cord = the tendril of our living soul
vessel of gold = what holds our living soul
pot = our physical body
wheel = life force, the dynamic energy that fuels our life




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