A question for Trinitarians.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Look at it this way:


1 x 1 x 1 = 1

I would look at it that way but I am not that stupid.

Regards
DL

LOL!!!!!


Cute little appeal to ridicule fallacy.

Epic fail.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I never said Jesus was the Father. the Father is the Father, and the Son is the Son. Both are one God. There is only one God, but God has 3 persons. He is the Father, He is the Son, and He is the Holy Spirit. The Son is simply the visible, touchable presence of God.

so, would you say, from your understanding, then, that

GOD the father = spirit
Holy Ghost = soul
Jesus Christ = body

?

If God is analogous to water, ice and vapor then the Holy Ghost is vapor, Jesus is water and the Father and God of the O T is ice.

O T God deserves to have lost our love and it is no wonder that He was replaced by Jesus.

www.youtube.com...

Or at least the Bible writers hoped that we would be forgiving enough to accept Jesus. I am not.
I do not mind Jesus so much even with his unworkable sayings as a Rabbi and fully human but if he is the O T God then I have a bullet with justice and his name written on it.

That is justice for any that would use genocide on man.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Then why does Jesus allow idolatry.

to see who believes what.

Jesus allows men he heals to worship Him, He allows the apostles to worship Him.

it says that they do, but doesn't implicitly state that he allows it. unless i missed something. if so, please point it out to me.

The angels allow the apostles to worship Him when He ascends to heaven after his resurrection. And God commands angels to worship Him.

can you give some examples?

Your statements are refuted by scripture.

maybe not.

2 Thessalonians 2:
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(9) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(11) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(12) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

this is an authorized deception! for a specific purpose of GOD's.

the image of this later appears in John's Revelation of Jesus Christ:

Revelation 13:12-18
(12) And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
(13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
(14) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(15) And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(16) And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
(17) And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
(18) Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Jesus was wounded by a sword, his side. Also, he is considered the "head" of the "church" and so the church had a deadly wound to the head but lived.

many, many, people have been killed for NOT worshipping Jesus, in the centuries following his lifetime.

Jesus was not a created being. Jesus has always existed. Jesus is the Son of the Godhead (Trinity). Before He walked the Earth he was the Word of God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Let's replace "word" and "He" and "Him" with "Jesus" and re-read the verse:


"In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with God, and (Jesus) was God. (Jesus) was in the beginning with God. All things were made through (Jesus), and without (Jesus) nothing was made that was made. ... And (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld (Jesus's) glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Let's compare verses from the OT to the New:


"Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath." ~ Isaiah 45:22-23


""Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." ~ Phil. 2:5-11

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I never said Jesus was the Father. the Father is the Father, and the Son is the Son. Both are one God. There is only one God, but God has 3 persons. He is the Father, He is the Son, and He is the Holy Spirit. The Son is simply the visible, touchable presence of God.

so, would you say, from your understanding, then, that

GOD the father = spirit
Holy Ghost = soul
Jesus Christ = body

?

Very very close, I'd add that Jesus is both body and word of God. That is precisely why Jesus said at creation:

"Come, let Us make man in OUR image."

We have body, soul, and spirit.

And finally:

"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Jesus Christ, Revelation 22:12-13

"The Deity of Jesus Christ has always been a strong belief of true Christianity. Likewise, those “churches”, groups, or organizations who do not recognize the Deity of Jesus Christ are easily seen to not be true Christians but rather false religions. The contention regarding the Deity of Christ is certainly nothing new. Ever since the days of Jesus there has been a great dispute as to whether He was God or not. As you know many times the Pharisees took up stones to stone Him because He made the claim that He was God (John 10: 24-33)."

The Deity of Christ

I find it interesting to note that it took 300 years before Jesus was given divine status.

That is like us saying with 100% assuredness that Columbus was Gay.
That is just as impossible to know as the divinity of Jesus.

Nothing has been declared sacred that has not been named so by man.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And finally:

"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Jesus Christ, Revelation 22:12-13

Quickly must have had a different meaning 2000 years ago.

We are still waiting for the slowest boat in history.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And finally:

"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according to his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Jesus Christ, Revelation 22:12-13

Quickly must have had a different meaning 2000 years ago.

We are still waiting for the slowest boat in history.

Regards
DL

"A day with the Lord is like 1,000 years and 1,000 years like 1 day"

You're hearing the words of the eternal creator, 2,000 years is very quick to Him. lol

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I find it interesting to note that it took 300 years before Jesus was given divine status.

That is like us saying with 100% assuredness that Columbus was Gay.
That is just as impossible to know as the divinity of Jesus.

Nothing has been declared sacred that has not been named so by man.

Regards
DL

You're nuts, everyone who called Jesus the "Son of Man" was calling Him God. "Son of Man" is a Hebraism directly from Daniel chapter 7. "Son of Man" in English means son of a man. When a Jew says "Son of Man" it means the Son of Jehovah.

Read the first verse of John, anywhere you see "Word" substitute "Jesus". People have to learn to understand what these men said and wrote from the Hebraic perspective, since of course they were Hebrews who wrote to books of the Bible.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I find it interesting to note that it took 300 years before Jesus was given divine status.

That is like us saying with 100% assuredness that Columbus was Gay.
That is just as impossible to know as the divinity of Jesus.

Nothing has been declared sacred that has not been named so by man.

Regards
DL

You're nuts, everyone who called Jesus the "Son of Man" was calling Him God. "Son of Man" is a Hebraism directly from Daniel chapter 7. "Son of Man" in English means son of a man. When a Jew says "Son of Man" it means the Son of Jehovah.

Read the first verse of John, anywhere you see "Word" substitute "Jesus". People have to learn to understand what these men said and wrote from the Hebraic perspective, since of course they were Hebrews who wrote to books of the Bible.

Literalist and fundamentals end up being so backward thinking.

www.raceandhistory.com...

If you believe in fantasy like this; talking animals, Satan, angels, a six day creation and an immortal water walker who dies, then you might want to ignore me or if not then start thinking like an adult.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Greatest I am
I find it interesting to note that it took 300 years before Jesus was given divine status.

That is like us saying with 100% assuredness that Columbus was Gay.
That is just as impossible to know as the divinity of Jesus.

Nothing has been declared sacred that has not been named so by man.

Regards
DL

You're nuts, everyone who called Jesus the "Son of Man" was calling Him God. "Son of Man" is a Hebraism directly from Daniel chapter 7. "Son of Man" in English means son of a man. When a Jew says "Son of Man" it means the Son of Jehovah.

Read the first verse of John, anywhere you see "Word" substitute "Jesus". People have to learn to understand what these men said and wrote from the Hebraic perspective, since of course they were Hebrews who wrote to books of the Bible.

Literalist and fundamentals end up being so backward thinking.

www.raceandhistory.com...

If you believe in fantasy like this; talking animals, Satan, angels, a six day creation and an immortal water walker who dies, then you might want to ignore me or if not then start thinking like an adult.

Regards
DL

oooooooooooooooh sweeeeet!!! When I awoke today I was parylized with fear thinking I wouldn't have the pleasure of enduring an appeal to ridicule fallacy! Thanks for giving one.


*yawn*

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You're nuts, everyone who called Jesus the "Son of Man" was calling Him God.

I know you weren’t speaking to me but I couldn’t help butting in…

Jesus calls himself and is referred to as, the “son of man” because that is the phrase used to describe the coming Messiah, referenced in the verse Daniel 7:13-14, in the old Testament. When Jesus says he is the “son of man”, he is really saying that he is the Messiah that was prophesied about, in the Old Testament.

The “son of man” only means Messiah, the son of God, it does not mean that Jesus is God.

Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power;…

No one can give authority to God, only God can give authority to someone else.



- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You're nuts, everyone who called Jesus the "Son of Man" was calling Him God.

I know you weren’t speaking to me but I couldn’t help butting in…

Jesus calls himself and is referred to as, the “son of man” because that is the phrase used to describe the coming Messiah, referenced in the verse Daniel 7:13-14, in the old Testament. When Jesus says he is the “son of man”, he is really saying that he is the Messiah that was prophesied about, in the Old Testament.

The “son of man” only means Messiah, the son of God, it does not mean that Jesus is God.

Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power;…

No one can give authority to God, only God can give authority to someone else.



- JC

if you would have read further down in my post from the portion you quoted you'll see that I stated the reference to the "Son of Man" was a direct reference to Daniel 7. The messiah described in Danie 7 has devine characteristics. And look at the reaction from the Pharasees and Scribes when Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man.

"..For being a mere man, thou makest thself to be GOD."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Jesus refers to Himself as the "Son of man", which is a Hebraism directly from Daniel chapter 7. When the Pharisees hear Jesus claim He is the "Son of man" they want to stone Him immediately and Jesus asks:

"For what good works do you wish to stone me", and they reply: "For no good works, but because you are a mere man claim to be GOD."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
if you would have read further down in my post from the portion you quoted you'll see that I stated the reference to the "Son of Man" was a direct reference to Daniel 7. The messiah described in Danie 7 has devine characteristics. And look at the reaction from the Pharisees and Scribes when Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man.

"..For being a mere man, thou makest thself to be GOD."

The only verse where the Pharisees say the above line, “that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.!", comes from John 10:33, but in the said Chapter, Jesus does not refer to himself as the “son of man”, when talking to the Pharisees.

I can only assume that you have got the passages mixed up somehow.

Are you referring to John chapter 10 or another passage?



- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Jesus refers to Himself as the "Son of man", which is a Hebraism directly from Daniel chapter 7. When the Pharisees hear Jesus claim He is the "Son of man" they want to stone Him immediately and Jesus asks:

"For what good works do you wish to stone me", and they reply: "For no good works, but because you are a mere man claim to be GOD."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
if you would have read further down in my post from the portion you quoted you'll see that I stated the reference to the "Son of Man" was a direct reference to Daniel 7. The messiah described in Danie 7 has devine characteristics. And look at the reaction from the Pharisees and Scribes when Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man.

"..For being a mere man, thou makest thself to be GOD."

The only verse where the Pharisees say the above line, “that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.!", comes from John 10:33, but in the said Chapter, Jesus does not refer to himself as the “son of man”, when talking to the Pharisees.

I can only assume that you have got the passages mixed up somehow.

Are you referring to John chapter 10 or another passage?



- JC

I did get them mixed up. But the truth still remains, 1: On NUMEROUS occasions Jesus said he was God, Gabriel the angel tells Mary she will be pregnant by the Holy Spirit and Jesus will be God made flesh. The Apostles call Him God and He says that's true. And "Son of Man" is a Hebraism. These are all true. Jesus Christ is the Father made flesh. The Word of God manifested in the flesh.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world (Hebrews 1:1-2)

..... being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his [God's] person ..... (Hebrews 1:3)

Who is the image of the invisible God. (Colossians 1:15)

Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14:9)

And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.(John 20:28-29)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I did get them mixed up.

That’s what I thought, because in John 10 Jesus tells the Pharisees that “he and the Father are one”, not that he is the “son of man”

The Pharisees, thought (wrongly) that Jesus was saying he was God and they wanted to stone him for his blasphemy.

A few sentences later, Jesus actually corrects the Pharisees, by explaining what he really meant by “he and the Father are one” by stating the following…

John 10:36

what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

So Jesus is reiterating what he meant by his previous words and clearly only states that he is the “son of God”

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world (Hebrews 1:1-2)

Yes God speaks to us through Jesus, because the Father Gods spirit lived in Jesus, when he walked the earth. This verse also alludes to the fact that all things were created, through God and Jesus.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16)

Yes God was manifest in the flesh because when Jesus was baptized “the spirit of God” descended upon him and became one with Jesus spirit.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
..... being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his [God's] person ..... (Hebrews 1:3)

Who is the image of the invisible God. (Colossians 1:15)

Yes Jesus is the image of God but that does not make him God…

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father (John 14:9)

Again this verse only means that Jesus is in the image and likeness of God but not that he is God/Father.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.(John 20:28-29)

The reason Thomas said “my God” is because the Spirit of God was living in Jesus and was one with Jesus spirit. He says “my God” because he recognizes that God is actually speaking through Jesus.

This is similar to the verse…

John 14:8-10

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

There are 2 things to bear in mind here…

Firstly, that they (Disciples) know the Father…

When Jesus tells the disciples that they know the Father, this is true because the spirit of Father/God has been living in and talking through Jesus, during the time they spent with him.

When Jesus says these words you hear are not just my own, he means that not only is God speaking through him but that he (Jesus) is speaking as well. In other words, Jesus is also a person in his own right, along side the Father. There are clearly two voices that are speaking in various parts of the four Gospels, where Jesus speaks on his own behalf and God speaks on his own behalf.


Secondly, that they have seen him…

This kind of gets back to Colossians 1:15, which was the verse you quoted above, but I will take it a step further,

KJB
John 1-18

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This is why Jesus is only the likeness of God because no man has seen God…


NIV
John 12:44-46

Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

I believe that when Jesus says “When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me”, that he not only means he is in the likeness of God but that they see and hear the spirit/character of God, through Jesus.

When you start to understand that the spirit of God was living and talking through Jesus and that Jesus has his own spirit, which is one with God the Father, then many passages in the Four Gospels, begin to make sense.

IMO The most important thing in the above verse John 12:44 (and in many other verses as well) is that Jesus is actually asking us to believe in him and the one who sent him i.e. Father/God. But if we categorically state, that “Jesus is God”, then this becomes impossible to do.



- JC


[edit on 17-7-2010 by Joecroft]