A question for Trinitarians.

A question for Trinitarians.

Let’s check the math on the Trinity.
Math never lies.

Is God/Trinity 100% God or 300% or 400% ?

God the Father is 100% God.
God the Holy Spirit is 100% God.
God the Son is 100% God.
Jesus is 100% Man.

All would have their individual Natures. These natures should all be equal yet scripture is clear that they are not. I E. Cursing the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity must then consist of the God the Father nature, God the Holy Spirit nature, Jesus/God Nature and Jesus/Man Nature.

Is that not four distinct Natures?

Trinity means three, should we not be calling it something else?
Monotheism is one, should Christianity take that title or attribute?

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

I'm sure most Christians aren't interested in the semantics of whether Christianity is monotheistic or polytheistic. But, they'll swear up and down it's one god.

Generally speaking though, it is a polytheistic religion...just by definition.
It's got a major God (God), and a demigod (Jesus, as the offspring of God and a mortal woman, Mary), then a lesser god in the form of Satan (Christians will argue he isn't a god, but he is clearly more than a man or demon). Then, you have a whole other hierarchy of Angels and Demons to boot. (and we're not even including Saints and Apostles yet into this equation)...

I said everything I wanted to say on this point in more than 70 posts on the attached thread;Questions for Christians and others

Job done, as far as I'm concerned.

reply to post by Gazrok

I'm sure most Christians aren't interested in the semantics of whether Christianity is monotheistic or polytheistic. But, they'll swear up and down it's one god.

Most Christians by the definition alone (me included) believe in the one true God
.1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Generally speaking though, it is a polytheistic religion...just by definition.

How is this so? please elaborate and or define.Last time I checked to be a christian meant to be an adherent of Christ, Who by the way is God.

It's got a major God (God), and a demigod (Jesus, as the offspring of God and a mortal woman, Mary), then a lesser god in the form of Satan (Christians will argue he isn't a god, but he is clearly more than a man or demon). Then, you have a whole other hierarchy of Angels and Demons to boot. (and we're not even including Saints and Apostles yet into this equation)..

Its quite obvious that you have no clue as to what Christians and Jews alike believe about God.
You should really examine your own intellect first, then maybe you would have a much clearer picture of God and what the Bible has to say about him.
lol..

[edit on 12-7-2010 by oliveoil]

i'd hate to think Christ and GOD would be so snotty to someone, just for asking a question.

things like that cause a lot of confusion. you say you are a christian and as such, are an adherent of Christ, but then you are downright rude to someone just because....well, i don't know why you were rude, actually.

and it doesn't really matter because all that people remember is the rudeness from an adherent of Christ - and then after they've forgotten the incident, down the road, even way down the road, they will just associate the experience with Christ.

if it was a good impression you made, it would be good.
but when it's not, how can you blame others for not really understanding what you stand for?



--------------

i personally think that "unitheism" is a good word to describe deity.

that way, everyone is united (which we are, anyway, since we are all human) and it also fits the definition of GOD given in the bible:

"Hear O Isreal, the Lord your GOD is one Lord."

ONE is not solitary or single. the word is Echad and it means "united."

obviously there are more than one *individual* working together as deity.
and indeed, in the OT that works a lot better than a lone god with what might be called schizophrenia in modern times.



...and don't thrash me because my GOD is Echad and i don't mind going along with the words i've been given instead of the interpretations and extrapolations of the christian religion which does not make sense in the form presented by its adherents

reply to post by queenannie38


Oh brother... Yes this adherent of Christ is RUDE...Yes, to someone and all who are ignorant as to the word of God and what we as JEWs and Christians believe.Question? can I not be angry with someone who purposely distorts the truth about God?If these people are correct as to my belief being wrong , Please disprove me or give me a comprehensible theory as to why they are right and or I am wrong.The problem with most here on ats is that their imagination is bigger than their intellect.Rude??? Who is being rude? At least I address people when I speak...QUEENANNIE

[edit on 12-7-2010 by oliveoil]

i'm sorry for not using your name, oliveoil

i will try to be more personable.

Originally posted by oliveoil
Oh brother... Yes this adherent of Christ is RUDE...Yes, to someone and all who are ignorant as to the word of God and what we as JEWs and Christians believe.

why are the ignorant?
someone has not taught them
but in this area of life, it is not about teaching but about leading by example.

Question? can I not be angry with someone who purposely distorts the truth about God?

sure, you can do anything you want.
but what does the bible say Jesus said about that, on the Mount?
you can have your own will or GOD's will - either way, it's free

but if you have your own will, how can you be angry about, as you say, someone who 'purposely distorts the truth about God'?

If these people are correct as to my belief being wrong ,

well, if you mean what the OP says, that's not correcting YOU, per se, or even correcting anyone. the OP asked a question, but didn't ask you directly, and wasn't rude.
and logically, it follows, that line of questioning.

besides all that, how can a BELIEF be "wrong?" either it is something you believe or it is not. there is no right and wrong to belief as long as everyone keeps their hands to themselves, if you know what i mean.

asking questions should not challenge your belief if it is strong and if they do, then perhaps it is due time for a bit of a shakeup.
GOD does all things, so what does it matter?

Please disprove me or give me a comprehensible theory as to why they are right and or I am wrong.

you do a fine job of disproving yourself, oliveoil.
what you say and how you say it are worlds apart and that speaks volumes to everyone in earshot.
it's not about right or wrong; it is about being TRUE

The problem with most here on ats is that their imagination is bigger than their intellect.Rude??? Who is being rude? At least I address people when I speak...QUEENANNIE

tinkling brass, oliveoil!
tinkling brass.

Who invented this nonsense?

The trinity teaches that God asked himself to go to earth to save mankind.

Then he agreed with himself and volunteered himself to himself to offer himself.

Then God impregnated a woman as himself, with himself.

God prayed to himself and glorified himself repeatedly.

God strengthened himself and talked to himself.

Finally God forsook himself and sacrificed himself to prove his loyalty to himself.

While dead he resurrected himself so he could exalt himself above himself.

Then he sat at his own right hand and waited till he placed his enemies as a footstool.

Finally with Satan's forces defeated God would turn his kingdom over to himself.

That all things would become everything to himself.


:bnghd:

So you either believe the above, or that Jesus Christ is the created first born son of God Almighty.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Greatest I am


Look at it this way:


1 x 1 x 1 = 1

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Who invented this nonsense?

The trinity teaches that God asked himself to go to earth to save mankind.

Then he agreed with himself and volunteered himself to himself to offer himself.

Then God impregnated a woman as himself, with himself.

God prayed to himself and glorified himself repeatedly.

God strengthened himself and talked to himself.

Finally God forsook himself and sacrificed himself to prove his loyalty to himself.

While dead he resurrected himself so he could exalt himself above himself.

Then he sat at his own right hand and waited till he placed his enemies as a footstool.

Finally with Satan's forces defeated God would turn his kingdom over to himself.

That all things would become everything to himself.

Excellent…I couldn’t have put it better myself…

I would also add…

God ascended back to himself…
:bnghd:


John 20:17

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

- JC

LOL k...

Only the Lord can forgive sins...

Jesus forgives sin.

Only the Lord can be worshipped..

Jesus accepts worship.

Only the Lord can heal the sick..

Jesus heals the sick.

Only the lord can command demons..

Jesus commands demons.

Only the Lord can raise the dead..

Jesus raises the dead.




Jesus refers to Himself as the "Son of man", which is a Hebraism directly from Daniel chapter 7. When the Pharisees hear Jesus claim He is the "Son of man" they want to stone Him immediately and Jesus asks:

"For what good works do you wish to stone me", and they reply: "For no good works, but because you are a mere man claim to be GOD."

here is another couple verses:

1 JOHN 2:22 ~ "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is an antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son."

1 JOHN 4:3 ~ "but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

2 JOHN 1:7 ~ "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and an antichrist."


It's said in hermeneutics that if 3 verses agree on a topic it can be considered sound doctrine. Therefore, if a man denies the relationship between the Father and the Son, or denies the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that person is "an antichrist", or they have the spirit of the antichrist.

Lastly, one of the Lord's names in "Emmanuel" which means: "GOD WITH US."

reply to post by NOTurTypical


But NOTurTypical, Jesus never accepted worship. Jesus told everyone it was their FAITH in God that got them healed, not his powers (in fact, even his disciples had the power. It is a most sad and unfortunate side-effect of modern Christianity that so few can miraculously heal anymore). He commanded his disciples also to heal, remove demons, raise the dead, etc. He said plainly that God worked through him, not that he did the work.

As for forgiveness, we are all commanded to forgive so that our Father in Heaven may forgive us. Jesus may have had the power to forgive, but it was through God's authority. Otherwise, he would have said "I forgive you all", not "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do".

As for the pharisees accusing Jesus, you omitted to give Jesus's reply to their accusation.

I am not denying that Jesus is the Christ. Neither (as far as I understand) are Joecraft and Blue_Jay. But being the Christ (the Prophesied Messiah) is not the same thing as being God.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by babloyi]

Originally posted by Gazrok
I'm sure most Christians aren't interested in the semantics of whether Christianity is monotheistic or polytheistic. But, they'll swear up and down it's one god.

Generally speaking though, it is a polytheistic religion...just by definition.
It's got a major God (God), and a demigod (Jesus, as the offspring of God and a mortal woman, Mary), then a lesser god in the form of Satan (Christians will argue he isn't a god, but he is clearly more than a man or demon). Then, you have a whole other hierarchy of Angels and Demons to boot. (and we're not even including Saints and Apostles yet into this equation)...

A more honest reply than I will ever get from a Christian and more true.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

But NOTurTypical, Jesus never accepted worship.

Absolutely 100% false. Littered throughout the Bible men worship Jesus before his death on the cross:

"Then they (the apostles) that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." ~ Matthew 14:33

"And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him." ~ John 9:38

And Jesus accepts worship also after He is raised from the dead by His disciples. (Matthew 28:9-17, John 20:28-29) The disciples worship Jesus as He ascends back to heaven. (Luke 24:52) The Father instructs angels to worship Jesus. (Hebrews 1:6)

You're absolutely wrong. And MANY verses in the Bible strictly forbids worshiping men, angels or any created thing, but worship is reserved for God only. (Acts 10:25-26, Acts 12:20-23, and Acts 14:8-18, Romans 1:25) Angels refused to allow men to worship them. (Revelation 22:8-9, Revelation 19:10)

Only God is to be worshipped. (Matthew 4:9-10) Idolatry is the worship of ANYTHING other than God Almighty. (Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 6:13-15; Revelation 14:9-11)

* Jesus is expressly stated to be God or to possess Deity.
* Jesus is called by names that may only be used for God.
* Jesus possesses characteristics that only God can possess.
* Jesus does work that only God can do.
* Jesus deserves worship and honor that only God deserves.

Jesus told everyone it was their FAITH in God that got them healed, not his powers (in fact, even his disciples had the power. It is a most sad and unfortunate side-effect of modern Christianity that so few can miraculously heal anymore).

I agree it was BY their faith they were healed, but not faith in God. Demons have faith in God. It was their faith in HIM. That he was the Messiah, they ha faith He could heal them. It was the Lord's SPIRIT that healed them, the 3rd part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. the apostles had this authority and ability because Jesus gave them His Holy Spirit. And I beg to differ, there are countless instances of spirit-filled believers healing the sick, raising the dead, etc today by the power of the Holy Spirit living within them.

As for forgiveness, we are all commanded to forgive so that our Father in Heaven may forgive us. Jesus may have had the power to forgive, but it was through God's authority. Otherwise, he would have said "I forgive you all", not "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do".

You're sorta twisting it. We are to forgive people when they do us wrong. We are NEVER given the authority to forgive men their sins, only god has the authority to forgive SINS. And Jesus was the ONLY Biblical character to forgive men their SINS.

As for the pharisees accusing Jesus, you omitted to give Jesus's reply to their accusation.

You MUST study what a "Hebraism" is. There are MANY. It's virtually impossible to understand the Hebrew figures of speech from an English/Western mindset unless you read about Hebraisms and understand what their unique figures of speech implied to THEM. The meanings of these are lost when translated into Greek, then to Latin, then to English.

*sigh*

John 5:17-18

"But Jesus answered them, 'My father worketh hitherto, and I work...' Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL WITH GOD."

John 14:7-10

"If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

John 10:31-33

"Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

John 17:5

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

Even the Old Testament says God will come to earth in the form of man in Isaiah 9:6-7:

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. ..."

You'll notice above that 'the Son' will be called: "Mighty God", "Everlasting FATHER". Jesus Christ is simply God, which is a spirit, making Himself known to mankind as a man, why Gabriel says His name will be "Emmanuel" which means: "GOD WITH US."

I am not denying that Jesus is the Christ.

No you're not, however you are denying the relationship between the Father and the Son, and the deity of Jesus. You're stating Jesus was created, even though Jesus states He is eternal, that He had glory with the Father before the world began, and even said of himself: "Before Abraham was, I AM."

Neither (as far as I understand) are Joecraft and Blue_Jay. But being the Christ (the Prophesied Messiah) is not the same thing as being God.

It most certainly is. "Son of Man" and "Son of God" are claims to divinity, even the Pharisees knew that and stated that in John. You need to understand what these terms mean to JEWS, not how they are read in English. the meaning is completely lost in translation. Another example of a "Hebraism" is the word "Firstborn". In English we read "Firstborn" and to us it only means born first in order. But to Jews it means something entirely different. Example: David is called "Firstborn", but yet he is the last born of Jesse, the YOUNGEST of his brothers. That is an example of a "Hebraism".

the doctrine that Jesus was created, was not god made flesh was first started in the second century in Alexandria Egypt, none of the Apostles or their disciples etc taught that Jesus was not God made flesh. That teaching came from the pagans and Gnostics at Alexandria Egypt, about 50 years after the death of John in 96 AD.

Final point: have you ever read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD?? You'll also read that Jesus was "THE WORD MADE FLESH. Which also echos the statement by Gabriel, that Mary will call Jesus "Emmanuel, meaning GOD WITH US."

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Gazrok

 

I'm sure most Christians aren't interested in the semantics of whether Christianity is monotheistic or polytheistic. But, they'll swear up and down it's one god.

Most Christians by the definition alone (me included) believe in the one true God
.1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Generally speaking though, it is a polytheistic religion...just by definition.

How is this so? please elaborate and or define.Last time I checked to be a christian meant to be an adherent of Christ, Who by the way is God.

It's got a major God (God), and a demigod (Jesus, as the offspring of God and a mortal woman, Mary), then a lesser god in the form of Satan (Christians will argue he isn't a god, but he is clearly more than a man or demon). Then, you have a whole other hierarchy of Angels and Demons to boot. (and we're not even including Saints and Apostles yet into this equation)..

Its quite obvious that you have no clue as to what Christians and Jews alike believe about God.
You should really examine your own intellect first, then maybe you would have a much clearer picture of God and what the Bible has to say about him.

lol..

[edit on 12-7-2010 by oliveoil]

I will let him answer your question and will only say that damned near all the Jews I ever spoke to did not believe as Christians do.
They tend to be brighter than that.

Regards
DL

[edit on 13-7-2010 by Greatest I am]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
LOL k...

Only the Lord can forgive sins...

Jesus forgives sin.

Only the Lord can be worshipped..

Jesus accepts worship.

Only the Lord can heal the sick..

Jesus heals the sick.

Only the lord can command demons..

Jesus commands demons.

Only the Lord can raise the dead..

Jesus raises the dead.

but the bible mentions "the Lord God" and "God the Father"

2 JOHN 1:7 ~ "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and an antichrist."


It's said in hermeneutics that if 3 verses agree on a topic it can be considered sound doctrine. Therefore, if a man denies the relationship between the Father and the Son, or denies the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that person is "an antichrist", or they have the spirit of the antichrist.

i always understood that last verse to mean anyone who denies the humanity of Jesus Christ...it seems like many have the GOD part down but aren't grasping the human part - just as much human as the rest of us.

which makes babloyi's post, that i am going to reply to after this one, true.

Lastly, one of the Lord's names in "Emmanuel" which means: "GOD WITH US."

Jesus said he was in the Father and the Father was in him - to see Jesus was to see the Father.

that's still GOD WITH US but doesn't make Jesus the Father.

just some thoughts!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Look at it this way:


1 x 1 x 1 = 1

I would look at it that way but I am not that stupid.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by babloyi

But NOTurTypical, Jesus never accepted worship. Jesus told everyone it was their FAITH in God that got them healed, not his powers (in fact, even his disciples had the power. It is a most sad and unfortunate side-effect of modern Christianity that so few can miraculously heal anymore). He commanded his disciples also to heal, remove demons, raise the dead, etc. He said plainly that God worked through him, not that he did the work.

exactly!
to worship Jesus is idolatry, in a sense, because of his humanity.
Jesus was a man.
and is basically the same thing that Daniel wouldn't do under Nebuchadnezzar.

in Revelation, John keeps wanting to bow to the angels but they insist that he should not.

reply to post by queenannie38
I never said Jesus was the Father. the Father is the Father, and the Son is the Son. Both are one God. There is only one God, but God has 3 persons. He is the Father, He is the Son, and He is the Holy Spirit. The Son is simply the visible, touchable presence of God.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by babloyi

But NOTurTypical, Jesus never accepted worship. Jesus told everyone it was their FAITH in God that got them healed, not his powers (in fact, even his disciples had the power. It is a most sad and unfortunate side-effect of modern Christianity that so few can miraculously heal anymore). He commanded his disciples also to heal, remove demons, raise the dead, etc. He said plainly that God worked through him, not that he did the work.

exactly!
to worship Jesus is idolatry, in a sense, because of his humanity.
Jesus was a man.
and is basically the same thing that Daniel wouldn't do under Nebuchadnezzar.

in Revelation, John keeps wanting to bow to the angels but they insist that he should not.

Then why does Jesus allow idolatry. Jesus allows men he heals to worship Him, He allows the apostles to worship Him. The angels allow the apostles to worship Him when He ascends to heaven after his resurrection. And God commands angels to worship Him.

Your statements are refuted by scripture.