The battle of faith and science

One of the trends you cannot help noticing is the constant battle between people of faith and people of science... I believe that this is simply another tool used to divide us, turn us against one another by pretending that we have huge un-rectifiable differences.

Some people of faith often come out with arguments against evolution, age of the earth, possibility of life on other planets etc... and often quote religious text to back up their claims. They point blank refuse to consider alternative theories or even tried and tested facts, arguing that it is the work of the devil. Sadly this can often come across as closed minded or even blinded by their faith (and sometimes even just plain mad)
This attitude actually does more harm, to their cause, than good... the inability to discuss, with an open mind, alternative theories only serves to reinforce the negative stereotypes of the entrenched religious fanatic!

We also have some people of science who mock and laugh at anyone who follows, or believes, any faith based teaching... Often taking a superior tone when discussing such issues and going out of their way to mock these beliefs and insult the believer. They often use comparisons such as tooth fairy and Santa Claus, knowing that this will deeply hurt and offend people who follow religion. They ignore the fact that there are still many mysteries that science has yet to answer... and refuse to except that there could be a higher power. This simply reinforces the stereotype of the godless man being void of morals and arrogant!

However, why can’t you have both? Why can’t you be religious and still follow the teachings of science?

I am a Christian, i pray, go to church, do all the stuff that most Christians do... Does this mean i reject science?? Of course not... For me, Science is merely the understanding of Gods work!

There are many Christians who get angry when speaking about evolution, space and the solar system etc... They prefer to take the Bible in its literal sense. If the Bible says the world was made in 7 days... so be it! If the Bible says that the world is only 6000 years old... so be it... Adam and Eve... so be it etc...

However, I see it like this... The bible was written over many many years... it is (for me) the word of God... However, you have to remember that this book was written to convey the message of creation, and the destruction of man, so it had to include the whole of human history up to the life of Jesus and beyond. If God had included every intricate detail of creation, evolution, the formation of the cosmos etc... I doubt if you would be able to fit the bible into a football stadium.

The bible, in my opinion, gives us a dumbed down version of creation... It may seem blasphemous to some, for me to say that it is dumbed down, but It had to be! For it was designed to be understood by those who walked the earth thousands of years ago, as well as modern humans who have the benefit of inherited intelligence (something we take for granted)

I guess all im trying to say is this...

People of faith and people of science can coexists without this need for constant mocking and arrogant holier than thou attitude. I’ve seen so many good threads descend into a farce due to this toing and throwing of religious and secular mocking.

To my fellow brother and sisters of faith...

Please stop answering logical and sensible question with bible quotes... it simply descends into madness... the Bible is not a replacement for thought... God gave you a brain so do not be afraid to use it!

To my brothers and sisters of science...

Do not be so arrogant as to assume that religious people are all blinded by faith... I am yet to discover any human who has learnt anything, of science, from scratch... Almost all of the modern theories are built upon the work of those long dead... often excepting others work as fact without actually researching and doing the painful groundwork ourselves (for obvious reasons)
Therefore, in essence, you too are people of faith!

Peace!

reply to post by Muckster

The bible, in my opinion, gives us a dumbed down version of creation.

I think that that is a good way to put it. I don't think it's blasphemous at all either. The Bible isn't a science text. The point of the creation narrative in the Bible is more to acknowledge that God is the source of everything, not how God made everything.

You wouldn't know it today, but historically, Christians didn't believe in a young Earth. When I learned that, I found it really interesting. It was just sort of assumed that everything was really, really old. The age of the Earth wasn't even important to them! They, I think often times, understood the greater point of the Bible and the faith: that man screwed up big time, but God, because he loves his creation, set out to save it.

Learning the historical belief about creation and then studying the text further that actually moved me from the Young Earth Creationist camp to the Old Earth camp. That and, I had an epiphany one day and realized how stupid people can sound when they say that science is wrong but then relying on science when it proves their point. Of course, many of my Christian friends don't like that, but, what can one do?

reply to post by Muckster

They ignore the fact that there are still many mysteries that science has yet to answer

Not true at all, that's why we still conduct scientific inquiries on many thing's. Even the spiritual and paranormal thing's. How dare you conduct an ill thought out untruthful smear campaign.

refuse to except that there could be a higher power.

Also untrue! I accept that there could be some creator but I also acknowledge that without evidence of that creator, then other explanations of origins are equally valid. The universe could be the result of the anal drippings of a cosmic unicorn. Crude, yes, but that crude statement contains a kernel of truth if your capable of logical reasoning. However, accepting the possibility of a creator does not mean one has to accept any of the man made mythologies and certainly not the well known biblical mythology that is known to have plagiarized from older mythologies around the region it was born in.

This simply reinforces the stereotype of the godless man being void of morals and arrogant!

I really dislike statements that suggest one can't be moral without belief in a higher authority. Truth be told, morality is an agreed upon concept of proper behavior and what is moral to one group is not always moral to another group. Those kind of statements just further reinforces the stereotype that biblical mythology followers are uneducated. I also personally believe that people who act 'moral' on grounds of belief in reward are not moral at all and certainly not when they make such statements as lack of belief is equatable to lack of morality.

However, why can’t you have both? Why can’t you be religious and still follow the teachings of science?

They can and they do and as a result they have bastardized the original intent and message of the biblical mythologies doctrine. The church had tried to stop this, but they're method of killing and destroying people like that did more harm to their cause. They just assumed people would go along with it because they were the religious authority on Earth. Talk about arrogance huh?

Science is merely the understanding of Gods work!

Sure, if you want to bastardize the religion and reinterpret what God said he really did.

If God had included every intricate detail of creation, evolution, the formation of the cosmos etc

...

The bible, in my opinion, gives us a dumbed down version of creation

...

For it was designed to be understood by those who walked the earth thousands of years ago

So you simply choose which aspects of biblical mythology and the 'word' of it's deity ring true and which were just quickly hobbled together for the more primitive dumb folk? I really dislike statements that continue the stereotype that ancient man was somehow more stupid than modern man. Simply uneducated untrue hogwash.

Therefore, in essence, you too are people of faith!

Naivety at it's purest.

Why change my words,.. you're so afraid.

reply to post by Muckster


I think that the problem is how people interpret evidence. Too many religious people are going by what they were taught and not by what they have researched for themselves. Too many scientist tend to forget that new discoveries in science are constantly changing our ideas of what is vs. what we used to believe. You have to be open minded enough to realize that no one has all the answers and the answers we do have may be obsolete tomorrow.

I disagree with you OP. Why are you pandering to the ideas of people who want to destroy your faith so that you can be better accepted by them? We never evolved. According to the Bible we are in the fall of man stage still until God ends the world. Evolution contradicts the Word of God. Good thing that the evolutionary theory has been easily debunked. evolutionfacts.com...

First, I think that the Bible is a book that contains some science, but the "key" to understanding it has been lost or hidden.

A Prophet and a Scientist have, basically, the same definition; they have to make a statement that can be verified.

I've been saying it a couple of times, here, but I see some places where religion and science join together when describing some of the things of the universe.

Example: In the Nag Hammadi documents, Jesus, about Genesis, had this to say: God was with his Angels. One declared he was the Almighty God present before creation. Hard headed about it, God ended up confining the Angel in a drop of water where the Angel would sleep.
But in his sleep, the Angel dreamt of our universe. Still believing it was the Almighty God present before creation, it created the bodies of men to have them worship the Angel.
But the Angel couldn't animate those bodies.
So, When God saw this, He decided to put a breath in those bodies and gave them the choice to worship Him, instead, only to teach the Angel a lesson.

A) The water bubble. Isn't our universe filled with hydrogen?
B) The Dream. Don't quantum theorists say that our universe is the consequence of something imagined in a higher dimension?
C) Double nature. We are humans, and say we have personality, or that we are persons, but that word describes the "mask" we put on for society. The real word describing us is individual. Scientist haven't reclaimed a change about that description. Is it only because we have 2 brains, or because we have a dual origin as stated from times immemorial? What has come to be known as material=evil, spiritual=divine? For me individual=duality undivided.

And we are as evil as we are good.

Science has never, in my case, dulled my faith in God. And He answers my prayers, so... No chicane for me there!

reply to post by Aresh Troxit

A) The water bubble. Isn't our universe filled with hydrogen?

Water is H2O not H.

B) The Dream. Don't quantum theorists say that our universe is the consequence of something imagined in a higher dimension?

QM says nothing of the sort.

Is it only because we have 2 brains, or because we have a dual origin as stated from times immemorial? What has come to be known as material=evil, spiritual=divine? For me individual=duality undivided.

We technically have four brains if I'm remembering correctly. Each hemisphere is a brain of it's own, then there is one in the stomach and I think the heart has one too, don't remember and can't be bothered to look it up. Definitely at least three though. I suppose biology does away with silly notions of duality.

And we are as evil as we are good.

Good and evil/morality is a subjective agreed upon set of societal behaviors that another group may or may not agree with. What is moral to one religion and/or culture is not inherently moral to another religion and/or culture. The notion that some force of good or evil exists is mere superstitious uneducated belief that has no bearing on reality.

Science has never, in my case, dulled my faith in God. And He answers my prayers, so... No chicane for me there!

Yes, biblical mythology is worded in such a way that blind faith in it's validity can allow one to give thanks to the mythological deity rather than to ones self or to those around him/her that actually helped that person. It's sad really.

People of both science and religion need to keep an open mind.

Some people take the bible too literally, and they lose out on learning about new things, and explanations for other. There are so many contradictions in the bible, I haven't been able to figure out yet how it is believable. It makes no sense to me. Faith can be sooo blind.

On the other hand, if scientists completely reject spirituality, they lose their sense of awe, wonder, and mystery. And some things just can't be explained scientifically. Also science should be ever changing, as more gets found out. I think they should be studying the unexplainable more....

The "math" of the universe is awe inspiring, the Golden Mean, the Mandlebrot set, etc.

See signature below, that's believable.

Yeah it is a false division that people on the crazy ends of the religious/athiest scale rave about.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by sirnex


I know H2O isn't H. But it was not stated that the universe was made of molten gold... get the idea?

Look at the link for the two brains story...
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)"

Alas, for the quotes from quantum physicists, I can't find it for now, sorry.

As for blind faith, well, how do you know I have blind faith? You do look, however, to have blind-faith towards science and scientists. You are what you despise; you are a zealot scientist. Ironic, but demonstrating the topic of this thread...

Fare however you see fit.

reply to post by Muckster

They often use comparisons such as tooth fairy and Santa Claus, knowing that this will deeply hurt and offend people who follow religion.

How is this comparison not valid though? When dealing with a supernatural being or force that can only be believed by faith bringing up fairies, unicorns, and Santa are perfectly valid. Sure some believers might be sensitive to it but is it the fault of the person bringing it up or the believer who is far too easily offended? Perhaps a bit of both are to blame.

They ignore the fact that there are still many mysteries that science has yet to answer...

Its obvious to anyone with any level of scientific knowledge (even grade school level) that science hasn't figured everything out. The point to make to believers is that lacking answers doesn't mean we start making up supernatural beings to fill the gaps in our knowledge. We wait for science to figure it out OR honestly admit we don't know OR pick a scientifically feasible hypothetical (if science has put any forth). I, as a person who is definitely pro-science, have no problem admitting I don't know on a lot of things.

I am a Christian, i pray, go to church, do all the stuff that most Christians do... Does this mean i reject science??

No it doesn't. I for one am grateful that there are Christians out there who accept well proven scientific ideas and theories, if the world were full of fundamentalists us Atheists would be an endangered species.

I doubt if you would be able to fit the bible into a football stadium.

Science textbooks seem to do alright and if God is all-powerful I think he could handle writing a volume of scientifically accurate "religious" texts and pass them on to future generations of humans. Imagine how fast our civilization would have grown to have both scientific and spiritual guidance from the beginning.

often excepting others work as fact without actually researching and doing the painful groundwork ourselves (for obvious reasons)

Umm... No. Scientific conclusions are peer reviewed, experiments are repeated constantly. They are all based on facts, observations and experiments - they also make testable predictions. Science is not faith.

Religion can be good, but its bad when people take it to the extreme and force views on other people. Not only is this the wrong thing to do, but it will further divide groups, and ideas. It doesn't take a genius to figure that one out.

Science can be good, but its bad when people fall into a trap of not accepting new ideas. Now why its absurd to suggest outlandish claims( ie. the universe was crapped out the anus of a unicorn; point taken), it is important to know the history of scientific knowledge. As with "the world is round" people back in the day, they were laughed at, ridiculed, and maybe even persecuted for their outlandish claim that the world was not flat. Did it hold back science? Indeed, but maybe not to a degree that religion may have.

Science needs to understand.....actually people need to understand that although we have made great advances in technology, we need to be careful not to get trapped in conventional wisdom and the "superiority complex" that science is perfect because it boils down to an interpretation of those facts....

People are not ready for change, and indeed your world view will change drastically when the paradigm shifts...be ready to accept because it will challenge your notion of how the universe works. Anything less will keep you confined to a box. You should be thinking outside of it. Many of history's greatest scientists did just THAT.

reply to post by Aresh Troxit

I know H2O isn't H. But it was not stated that the universe was made of molten gold... get the idea?

What is your point? Please remember that this is what you originally said.

A) The water bubble. Isn't our universe filled with hydrogen?

Look at the link for the two brains story...
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)"

OK, what does psychology have to do with two brains? Biologically we have more than two brains.

Alas, for the quotes from quantum physicists, I can't find it for now, sorry.

Of course you can't as I've said, that has no relation to QM at all.

As for blind faith, well, how do you know I have blind faith? You do look, however, to have blind-faith towards science and scientists. You are what you despise; you are a zealot scientist. Ironic, but demonstrating the topic of this thread...

Blind faith in what regards? Please give a more intelligent concise description of this perceived blind faith rather than a meaningless empty claim of blind faith. By default, the very nature of religious belief requires blind faith as there is no tangible direct evidence for any deity ever worshiped on Earth. How you can equate this with scientific progress and technological advancement is beyond me unless you really hated math and science in school?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

How is this comparison not valid though? When dealing with a supernatural being or force that can only be believed by faith bringing up fairies, unicorns, and Santa are perfectly valid. Sure some believers might be sensitive to it but is it the fault of the person bringing it up or the believer who is far too easily offended? Perhaps a bit of both are to blame.

Whether the comparison is valid or not is a matter of perspective... But to deliberately use inflammatory language, simply to offend someone, is rude.

Personally, i try not to be rude about others beliefs that i may not share...Sure i will disagree with them, but try to remain respectful.

Its obvious to anyone with any level of scientific knowledge (even grade school level) that science hasn't figured everything out. The point to make to believers is that lacking answers doesn't mean we start making up supernatural beings to fill the gaps in our knowledge. We wait for science to figure it out OR honestly admit we don't know OR pick a scientifically feasible hypothetical (if science has put any forth). I, as a person who is definitely pro-science, have no problem admitting I don't know on a lot of things

It’s all about perspective... you are obviously happy with the way your life is, and your beliefs... thats cool... Just like i have my belief that makes me happy... neither of us should be ostracized just because of how we choose to live our life’s or what belief system we follow.

No it doesn't. I for one am grateful that there are Christians out there who accept well proven scientific ideas and theories, if the world were full of fundamentalists us Atheists would be an endangered species.

Indeed... And there were many great scientists who were Christians, Muslims, Jews etc... Many religious people like to ignore that fact.

Also, I never try to "convert" people or lecture them about my own beliefs... if people ask me, then cool. Personally, i find that people are far more understanding of your beliefs when you are not shoving them down their throats with threats of eternal damnation

Science textbooks seem to do alright and if God is all-powerful I think he could handle writing a volume of scientifically accurate "religious" texts and pass them on to future generations of humans. Imagine how fast our civilization would have grown to have both scientific and spiritual guidance from the beginning.

My belief is that the book had to be written so that the whole of mankind could understand it... Past, present and future. Can you imagine someone 2000 years ago trying to read about particle physics and DNA?

If the bible had every scientific fact... and an in depth look at human history... it would take a lifetime to read and more to understand... I believe that religion should be simple, not complicated... its just people who over complicate it so that they can twist it to fit their agenda.

Umm... No. Scientific conclusions are peer reviewed, experiments are repeated constantly. They are all based on facts, observations and experiments - they also make testable predictions. Science is not faith.

Sorry but i respectfully disagree... From an individual point of view, science is faith.

How much science has the average person performed from scratch... Let’s take flight as an example... You get on a plane and fly to different parts of the world. But have you ever studied the science behind flight yourself??

And i don’t just mean reading a book on it... i mean going out in a field with your ideas and building a Wright brothers style plane in order to test the theories of flight.
Before you fly, do you test different wing shapes? Do you test different types of propulsion?
Of course not... you have faith in the people who designed and built it. The thousands of different people who have all contributed to the science of flight and the vast pool of knowledge, that modern designers can now dip into, when designing and building a new plane.


Sorry if I’ve over quoted you in my reply, but you make some good points that i felt the need to address individually.

Peace

reply to post by sirnex

How dare you conduct an ill thought out untruthful smear campaign.

Dude chill... i thought my OP was pretty balanced... it’s not like i have attacked only atheists...

Also untrue! I accept that there could be some creator but I also acknowledge that without evidence of that creator, then other explanations of origins are equally valid.

Err... just so you know... my OP was not a personal letter to you! And i never said that other explanations were not valid... in fact i am trying to get people to see that everyone’s explanations are valid and should be heard!! But you seem to have gone off half cocked on this one!

I really dislike statements that suggest one can't be moral without belief in a higher authority.

But i never suggested that... i said... "This simply reinforces the stereotype of the godless man being void of morals and arrogant!"

Stereotype being the key word here...

And so you continue to waffle, down the path of anger, due to someone having a different belief than yourself... Kind of proving my point!

I am trying to bring people together... to show them that they don’t have to hate just because of different beliefs or ideologies... I respect your opinion, and agree with some of your points, but you seem to have completely misunderstood my intention.

reply to post by Bilw85


I am not pandering to anyone... i am simply saying what’s in my heart.

Evolution is a fact... it has been proven time and time again... The difference between myself and many other people is that i believe evolution is part of Gods perfect design.

The question i put to you is this...

Why is it that i can listen to other Christians interpretation of the bible without getting cross... however, as soon as they hear mine many get angry... why is that??

And i go back to what i mentioned in one of my other replys... Religion should be simple!!
If i have excepted Jesus as my saviour and i am a good person... why should any Christian care if my belief is that evolution is part of Gods design? Surely they should just be happy that i have excepted Chirst!!

Why do all humans have this need to angrily shove their own beliefs down everyone else’s throat???

reply to post by octotom


Thank you octotom

I can see we share similar thoughts on this... nice to know I’m not alone


[edit on 9-7-2010 by Muckster]

reply to post by Muckster

Why is it that i can listen to other Christians interpretation of the bible without getting cross... however, as soon as they hear mine many get angry... why is that??

Well the same reason people think religion=juedochristian religions. People have their ideas of what others believe in. When you do not fit into their mold of what they think you believe in you shake their belief system and that makes them angry. Just like those "crazy christians" get when you tell them there is no god.

reply to post by Muckster

Personally, I believe that having both was the way that things were intended. The marriage of each faith is essential to get an overall understanding of the world and the Universe around you. Spiritualism is dependent on evolution. Evolution is dependent on progression. And science is dependent on the observation of empirical evidence which helps the general whole progress and evolve as a species.

Once each decide to reduce their dependence on ego based programming by claiming absolutes and attempt to merge philosophies, giant strides can be made in each field by sharing information that would boost the collective consciousness of the greater whole.

Namaste and Love