Whatever happened to FDR's second bill of rights?

reply to post by undinemyth


Not all I am a Mature soul that is why I understand the basic concepts of humanity.
BY the way why attack me the poster I was just bringing up something that are not my ideas orginally but made sense.

reply to post by felonius


Once again I am not advocating socialism. Just because someone is for human equality does not make them socialist.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


In this recession you say that? Did you forget there are millions unemployed who worked hard!
I am not saying everyone should be rich. I am just saying that everyone should have housing and food. Everyone needs to have their basic need met not luxiries. WHY IS THIS IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
When you are in that situation I bet you will think MUCH differently.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


If you are implying I am lazy you are way off. Why is that every time someone brings something up about human equality people get rude? What is wrong with you?
I have 2 part time jobs and go to college full time. I used to worked 60 hours per work for some big companies who pushed me around.
You are never free in this society. Money is your master!

I just went back through the board and reread everything I wrote. Damn, I’m vicious and mean. I’m sorry to the OP and the others I disagreed with. I get very passionate about trying to explain what makes perfect sense to me, and when it doesn’t sink in I get very frustrated. Still, I shouldn’t lash out and call people stupid for not understanding. I give you my sincere apologies.

I don’t know if the reality of the economics will ever make sense to those who are so caught up in idealism that they can’t see the long term failings of radical egalitarianism.

I wish we could conquer the masters of the world who control our governments and pit us against each other… they are the true evil. I’m sure I’m on their black list already. They are the ones convincing many people that collectivism is a great idea and will work just like on Star Trek. It won’t… just trust me… it just won’t work. People need to evolve very far spiritually before someone goes to school to become a microbiologist to invent the next cure to a disease and is willing to do that for the same pay rate as someone who picks strawberries.

You really can’t force it on people either, or you will suffer a horrible loss of freedom. Admittedly, people like me who have pulled themselves up by the bootstraps tend to be the most venomous and ardent opponents to any sort of collectivism. I mean, it makes sense right? You view the rest of the world as slackers who want a free ride. Also, I have a ton of acquaintances who have “gamed” the system for every last dime. Getting their houses refinanced down to their value while I sit on my upside down house because I still pay the mortgage. That’s a hard pill for me to swallow.

Some people very close to me, relatives, have milked this crisis for every cent. Although they have a house worth more than a few years income they get unemployment for two years, free college, gas to go to college, and food stamps (Bridge Card here in MI).
They could sell the house and downscale and cost taxpayers nothing… but no. They get to keep their house and everything they earned in life and let us pick up the bill for their reeducation, food, gas, income to pay the taxes, etc. I don’t get it. That’s not down-and-out and I don’t think I should be paying for that.

With all that going on around me, I’m very bitter and I should try to be more factual and less passionate in my posts about this stuff but it’s just so dang hard. I feel like everything I ever believed is slipping away. It’s like “you mean I didn’t have to do all this work? You mean I could have just screwed around all that time I was in college and still had an easy life?” That hurts. Collectivists want to talk about unfair… that’s unfair.

Look I am not saying take away anything from anybody. Gees some people on here seem too selfish for words. I am saying that everyone deserves to have their needs meet as well.
People need to remember that there are more people in the world than just themselves and their family.
I know now who NOT to count on in a surival situation. You would probably not share any foor or water with me because I am not you or your family.
Selfish, typical "me" generation thinking.
I am very shocked what is ATS becoming this is not the only time I have gotten negative reactions when I talk about humanity or the poor.
I hope ATS is not becoming an elist site! Just because everyone on here is "rich" does not mean people who are poor do not work hard.
A lot of these comments seem to be in line with mainstream thinking.
I think it is odd when I first joined people seemes to be less mainstreamed;I begin to wonder if ATS is being infiltrated by conservative right wingers to divide and conquer ATS.(probably not; just a thought.)

reply to post by JonInMichigan


It does hurt when I read these comments and know that I am part of the group that is being judged. I think everyone is more bitter in different ways because america seems to be going to heck in a hand basket.
It is hard for to fit in anywhere because I am neither 100% liberal nor conservative so no matter what web site I am on I always find people who disagree with me.
I know I am way different than the mainstream and it is very hard for me.

I have thought about this even if it is just a room that locks where a person has their own bathroom that would be shelter and provide safety. (not a homeless shelter.) This would be provided to those people who need a home. They can share a kitchen and front room area this would provide incentive to people to put back into soceity. I consider volunteer work as work so even that could get someone into better housing.
I just disagree with anyone being homeless and the shelters are ok but it does not provide safety.
I believe that everyone should be able to get the same things in life. In fact everyone would start at 21 in a dorm type housing and move up the harder you work. It would not be based upon money but on age, the work you do and size of family.
The rich would not be as rich in my society but even the people who live in the basic housing will not be considered poor.

reply to post by dreamseeker


It's not that I don't want to help. I'm just hanging on by a thread. I pay my ex-wife $1400 / month support. (that's a whole other diatribe)

I still have to keep house for my current wife and my two kids (and me).

My house is upside down $50k. I make too much to be entitiled to any tax kickbacks. Our taxes are about to go up when the Bush tax cuts expire.

I personally spend several hundred volenteer hours a year working for CARE on Early Childhood Drug Prevention, T3 (an anti teen drinking group), and Nicotine Narcs (and anti teen smoking group) and I smoke!!! (I'm concerned about the kids in the furture, even if I can't seem to quit the habit.)

I am involved in my religion (neo-pagan) and we do a ton of Earth Day stuff. We clean up the parks and plant trees. We help people in need every day with different fun-raisers etc.

I would give you food and water if I knew you personally. You have me ALL WRONG.

What I don't want is some nebulous government body forcibly taking my money to do who-knows-what with. So far, in my life, I have not known many who have collected from the system who really needed it.

One aquaintance of mine sits home smoking her medical mary jane all day while collecting welfare and does nothing. zero. And she boasts to me about all the free crap she gets from the gov. I'm thinking "hey...I'm paying for all this!" In person, I wouldn't give her a dime unless she tried to get a job.

So that makes me greedy? That makes me selfish? Come on! If I thought these programs they are stealing my money for were actually going to a good cause I would be all for it.

Oh yeah... before I bought my first house I lived down in the ghetto of Detroit and regularly watched food stamps being used to by booze, cigs, and drugs. How can you see that go on every day and want to give your money that way. I want to give it to friend, family, and people in my community of my choosing.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


I am glad that I have you all wrong. I like a lot of things you seem to stand for. I understand what it is like to struggle. I make $800 per month and my rent is $600. I give to the poor when I can. I used to volunteer a lot at a food pantry and then crisis line. I have not done as much due to depression.
I am just trying to make sense of things because I am hoping to find a more coperative soceity some day.Of course my ideas would not tax the poor or middle class but the rich.
At one time the rich paid 90% of all taxes and they still were rich. I don't want to take from the middle class to feed the poor.
I want to make the middle class and poors situation even better. I am glad that you shared more information with me.
If it doesn't take anything away from you then why would it be bad?
This is where I am confused. I am not sure FDRs orignal intent but I know mine would be for the good of all people expecially the weak, the poor, the frail and elderly.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


food stamps can only be used for food. Well I am a good example of tax payers helping someone. I am going to college for psychology and I do work. I don't smoke, drink or do drugs. I obey all laws and try to make my world a better place.
I get Social Security, SSI, Medicare and food stamps; I do need those because I have multiple disablties; anxieties, an in born immune defiency which is better now that I am older( I don't have as many anti-bodies as most people so I get sick easier): I had complications from the steriod shot and immune boosters they DR gave me.
The complications include an extreme reaction to flurscent lighting that is not properly working; I pass out and have a mini brian seizure. This happens in almost EVERY store I go to except for hospitals where the lighting must be working properly. I also devoloped mild bi-polar depression as another side effect of the meds I took. My situation is livable but I can't work at most places due to fluroscent lighting and during flu season I stay home more. I don't get vaccines because I have side effects. Drs have to be careful what medication I get because I tend to have side effects.
There are people much worse off than me but some days i have dizzy spells so bad I can't live my house. I had DRs look at me and they recommended I get on disablity because I can only work from home.
I hope this makes you feel a bit better about where some of your taxpayer dollars are going. I apperciate all these programs because my two at home jobs only make $200-300 additional a month.
I would LOVE to work alongside everyone else but I was told by a DR it was too dangerous for me because I could pass out hit my head and die. Once I get my master's degree I plan on teaching online courses and get off SS and SSI. I don't even live in public housing but market rate apartment.

reply to post by dreamseeker


It's just that it won't come from the rich. It's a scam.

I'll explain a typical example. People say "oh let's add this tax to this company and then those greedy CEOs will give up some of their income to people who matter...your average joe"

Um... yeah... they won't. They won't give up a dime at the top, they will just increase the cost of the goods and services to us. Net is break even at best.

The top will never budge. They have the politicians bought and sold, even Obama.

They want to do this Cap and Trade on energy. Everyone on one side is like “Whoo woo! Tax those suckas!!! Make those greedy CEOs give up their millions.”

They won’t. I’m telling you as sure as it is 95 degrees and balmy outside right now that they will cut jobs, cut wages, raise our cost of energy, pollute more…anything … anything they can do to keep their salaries just the same while we all suffer at our own hand. It’s ignorance. It’s being propagated by the media, which they all own. This big richy rich cartel is spinning people up into believing in this stuff. They have the traditionalists conservatives and tea partiers fighting back on their own.

Of course people on the far right have their own agendas, but just like two WWE wrestlers, fighting in the ring and having a beer afterwards, it’s all a show. They all go to the same country clubs and figure out how they are going to screw the middle class out of every last dime they have left so that people like me will be right there with you in the food line. That’s the big goal. The big scam is remove the middle class… it’s in their way. They don’t want companies coming up out of the middle class to move to the upper crust to compete with them. They want to lock up all the power.

Knowing or unknowing, this fight between conservatives and liberals is a carefully crafted piece of sh*t meant to make us fight like this. They will make all you guys feel entitled to rich people’s money. You all vote for it. Then they dump it on the backs of the middle class. Once they do it’s too late. We are done. You will never see another ally with any money to make a difference in politics come out of the non-existent middle class. No one will be left to fight for you, me, or any of the common “surfs”.

So what do we do? We take this last chance to stand up and fight for what’s right and natural, which is what the founding fathers knew was right because they went through this all themselves. England is reborn in America in our bankers. We need to stop the dang Federal Reserve Bank. Tell our government to stop spending and let us work our own problems out. It won’t be easy. They made sure of that. But this is it, the end.
The founding fathers talked on and on about how this day would come. They knew the Rothchilds and others may have lost the Revolutionary War but would win it economically down the road. These families have patience. Japan did the same thing to us as a country, but these bankers are within. They control the media, the politics, etc. Right now I just want to hang on to my status of being in the middle class because it’s the only way I can still try to fight for a future.

Originally posted by dreamseeker
reply to post by JonInMichigan

 

food stamps can only be used for food.

Hahaha.... that's funny. Let me take you downtown where the crooked store owners ring beer up as food products. They just upcharge it to cover their risk. Or behind the store where you can swap food stamps .50 on a dollar for cash or drugs.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


We do need a new system for sure. I am not for the federal bank either. I think of everything as if there is a new system in place.
It is really hard to patch up a broken down system. We just need to make that this new system that is set up equals things out and no one starves or is homeless.
I am for social programs but not for hidden agendas or double speak or any of that poltical BS the government is famous for. At the end of the day what happens? We all complain yet nothing happens and we live out our lives in servitude.
I think the FDR principles has a good basis but a new system would have to be tweaked and work for the present. There is no such thing as the right system every system is evolving and open to change.
I really believe the end of capitlism will be coming once more people wake up to the inequalities maybe that is what the whole 2011 mayan end date is about; an awakening.

reply to post by dreamseeker

Originally posted by dreamseeker
I think the second bill of rights are great. What is wrong with everyone having enough to live?

If You look below you will see that this is what humans beings need to live.
The most basic is food and shelter. How is that communism? We can't get to our higher needs if the first ones are not met.

That is exactly the point.

The powers that be like it when we don't self-actualize; in fact it is in their best interests to keep people at subsistence levels in wage slavery. When you're working your butt off eighty hours a week just to pay the bills for your apartment and food it keeps you from being comfortable long enough to ponder social questions like marriage rights and immigration issues. When you're working from four in the morning to nine at night on the same tenant farm that your father did and your son will because you're paid five dollars a day but the only place your allowed to rent is from the company *COUGH* Chiquita *COUGH* that you work for and rent costs you five dollars and one cent a day you don't really have the time to think about social justice.

There are plenty of armchair communists and internet revolutionaries who go online and quote Marx and Engels and Bakunin and Proudhon from the laptop their parents bought them in the dorm their parents are paying for them to go to school, but TPTB know that they don't have to worry one bit about them because those "leftists" are all bark no bite. The real people who could be moved to action, if they ever had the time to sit down and think about it, are the ones who are kept so busy, or are so infirm, or are so elderly that they never have time to organize.

Our society (the west, and arguably all "civil" society ever) is designed to create gears and cogs, who prove their usefulness to the machines of incorporated power (erstwhile: tyrants, monarchs, and despots; presently: corporations, monopolies, and trusts) that they might be given the "privilege" of prostrating themselves in a suitable position to be ground upon for a pittance compared to their bosses, only then to remove themselves to the place they rest between shifts of work (which in the times of slavery was paid for by the master but now must be purchased with the remuneration that a days worth of sweat and toil provides).

We are slaves and it's in the best interests of the multinational corporations, the largest examples of the incorporation of private wealth and power that this world has ever seen, to keep us that way.

Which is why it would take a real life actual revolution to get FDR's Second Bill of Rights instituted.

Originally posted by Someone336
reply to post by dreamseeker

 

Yes, it is that "me" mentality that is what is shattering this nation.

Let us consider this:

Source: Who Rules America? Wealth, Income, and Power

Just look at that top 1% versus the bottom 80%!

Now look at this:

Source: Where Your Income Tax Money Really Goes

If you want to see something shocking, go to Costofwar.com, and you can see how much money the war is costing the nation, your state, your city, your household, and yourself. Even better, it shows how many social programs, ranging from student loans to firefighters, could be payed for with this outrageous financial sum.

Somehow the America public has no moral qualms with paying for bullets and bombs and the means to wage foreign wars, yet when it comes to the livelihood of fellow Americans, the very notion is an unforgivable sin. "






the sheer volume of the stupidity comming from the left has no end.

IT WAS clinton WHO BANNED all us defense stocking piling back in the 90s.

do you have any idea HOW MANY BILLIONS IF NOT TRILLIONS we would haved saved if we had continued to stockpile us arms and ammunition ?

any idea? guns bullets bombs have no shelf life.


the left wing makes me sick to no end because time and time agian YOU people create the condtions to bitch about something so YOU can bitch about something.

as to the second bills of rights screw that communist bullshjt.

NOONE GAVE the founding fathers crap.
NOONE GAVE out great grandfathers,fathers NOThING!

THEY fought,bled,sweat and made this country with their own to hands.

THIS IS what this country has become a bunch of lazy azz people who have no freaking clue how to survive and flourish without handouts.

[edit on 8-7-2010 by neo96]

reply to post by neo96


Communist? This is not about left or right; conservative or liberal but about basic human decency.

bullshjt-

NO MAN can give another a right- BUT THEY SURE DO TAKE RIGHTS AWAY.


good example: you take ur son or daughter to the store...." daddy buy me that" so he does.

they go home and go back the store agian same thing "daddy buy me that"..... same thing

next time they do the same thing " daddy buy me that too" so he gives in.

its never ending......... what you end up with is a spoiled little brat.... who has no conception that daddy ie people have to work for shjt.


THIS COUNTRY OF TODAY is a bunch of spolied little bratts who have no idea or clue of what it takes to make it in this world.

IF YOU WANT to live a country of depency and a government that is mother and father you go right ahead........... IM OLDER AND WISER THAN THE MAJORITY ON ATS and in the world.

growing up in my household it was freedom and independence that drove me- not to have my hand out and ask my parents for nothing. i earn my keep period.

reply to post by neo96


So someone is spoiled just because they want food and housing? I am talking about basic human needs not cell phones or cars. What is wrong with every person at least having a room and a bathroom that locks. What is wrong with everyone having food.
I don't believe that people have to strave to death or be homeless.
I know I am not spoiled when I have a one bedroom apartment and make $800 per month.
You do not sound wiser to me.
If you as old as you say you should remember the hiearchy of needs. This is what we need to live a fulfilled life.
Maybe you are just bitter that you could not have the life you wanted in this captilist society?

lmfao thats hilarious


pay for 300 million people to eat daily ( your government pays people not to grow food)
pay for over 300 million people to have homes go right ahead ( fanny and freddy worked out real well didnt it)
pay for the over 20 million illegals to have all that to
(dont know how you really count illegals, does a census worker go up and ask , " hey are you here illegally? )



[edit on 8-7-2010 by neo96]