Root Cellar in Arizona...AkA fallout shelter

I have a design that I am going to make on the cheap. I have researched many days and have found few designs. I bought a book that gives me the strengths and spans tables and have come up with an 8x14 design that is buried under 3ft of dirt. The temp should be no more than 50 in the summer heat at ground level of 110.

I'll add all the peculiars if there is interest. Such as the engineering calculations. the drawings and parts list. along with photos.

I planned this last year but as things go I have been distracted. The hole was dug to 9 feet depth by 10 ft wide by 16 ft long. NOW a year later it has had some infill. I have to pull out 3 ft along the floor to level it and get the 9 ft depth.

The building will be 7-8 ft high..undecided yet. My plan is to have it dug out by the end of July. I have to do it by hand now. Backhoe is too expensive for budget at this point , but it did do the original and was well worth the price.

As far as the structure, plans are all over the place, but I am curious as to it's effectiveness. Never heard of anyone in a very warm climate putting one in. Would be very curious as to the end result and how it works.

You mentioned, three feet of dirt will keep the internal temp around 50. I've always been under the belief that you should try for 32-40 with humidity at 80-95%.

Also the size, 8x14 with 7 ft walls? I get the high walls for shelving, but man, that's a lot of shovel time.

Best of luck on this project, keep us posted as to progress, and photos would be great if possible.

reply to post by awakentired


I had a online manual, that I will try to find, but it said that for a fallout shelter one would be best suited to have about 14 ft of dirt on top...I think

I think this is it

www.oism.org...

One of the easiest, lowest cost fallout shelter designs iv'e seen is a old ship cargo container buried underground.. they used to be cheap anyway.. not as cheap anymore..

Ive seen other that have used old schools bus's also.. I'd add some supports down the center for that however, but a school bus has very good roll over crush protection

a true fallout shelter should be as deep as possible.. however any shielding is better than none.. 3 feet is far far better than nothing.

Ideally the best fallout prevention is don't be near where a bomb would be dropped..

To the OP if you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
Whether done with a backhoe or an E-tool the task that you are undertaking is a huge one.
Now the reasons that you are doing it dictate you don’t mess around.
If there were ever anywhere to be cheap or skimp, this is not the place.
Get your shovel and go a bit deeper, but know your ceiling stresses vs your top cover.
This way you will know of what to construct the ceiling and how much dirt to pile on top as to hide it.
Get a definite plan of attack and go with it.
You might also consider going a bit longer for sanity, yes it will be for survival, but first rule of survival is to LIVE.
There is a difference between living and surviving. And sanity is priceless.
I don’t necessarily think you will need 14 feet of cover like hk45 suggests unless you are at ground zero, and if that were the case I would giggle and walk away.
3-5 feet worth of cover with some lead paint cover should do fine, maybe even overkill.
What HK45 is suggesting is a rich mans shelter and I would assume we are not.
We do with what we have. Good looking out though HK45!
As far as cargo containers, unless you are going to fortify the walls and ceiling a lot don’t even consider them, they crush in the center I read somewhere, and it has been awhile since I saw the article so I cannot point out a source
School bus is interesting as I do not know if they do have extra protection but they are a semi domed structure good idea I think.
What I would love to be able to do is a large round hole and basically do a 2 story dome design like a half globe buried. The dome would afford extra cave in protection like an arch.

I'm sure since you did your research, you have seen the ark two shelter in Canada. There probably has been threads on this in the past. They used old school busses.

Their website is crappy at best but here is a link

www.ki4u.com...

reply to post by SUICIDEHK45


thanks for the link. I bought some stuff from them last year as part of my preps. Rad meter and iodine tablets. As a free gift they gave me a cd with alot of survival info. Part of it was the fallout shelter info..here's where I learned 3' dirt gives 1000 rad protection..recommended.

This group berried the buses.

I came up with my design based formulas from the book Timber Framing for the rest of us by Rob Roy. I then posted the design calculations on Cr4 website for engineers to gain confidence in my numbers crunching.

It is a safe design. The backhoe cost was $ 125. well worth it as well.

Thanks for the comments. I will be taking pictures as I move the project forward from just a big ass hole behind my house.
Or is that me? lol.

here are a couple of nice, for the money, "root cellars".
The Shipping Container..nicely designed and executed.
shipping container shelter
reported to be 3600 cost to complete.
This one is built on k4u plans..with some modifications.
mountain mike

This is similar to my design. I am going bigger and deeper. I want to finish at ground level. The door will be a ramp/staircase to a raised porch, on top of the shelter.
storage plus


Our income doesn't permit grandeur and this shelter/cellar is going to cost around 800 ballpark. I have yet to detail the design..maybe tomorrow I'll get better numbers.

Next project is the underground greenhouse. Underground for the purposes of climate control.

Not looking forward to tomorrow.. more dirt to shovel.
Peace

i saw a video story somewhere where a guy made a fallout shelter out of old schoolbuses that had capacity for 200 people . it had bunks a whole kitchen, full bathroom and shower facilities . wired for electricity . how about using water to block radiation i read somewhere that water would make a great raditoin shielding . and i used to lay concrete pipe for a living
bigest i ever laid was 8 ft tall when standing inside of it 2 or three secitions of that pipe at 12 feet sections would make a nice size shelter you could put metal grates at one foot height so u could run plumbing or storage.
now getting back to doing it yourself as somebody who has bgeen in very deep trenches be very careful shore up the sides as you go or you might be digging your own grave instead of a shelter. trust me i know i have been buried several times when trench walls have been improperly shored up and almost drowned when idiot excavator driver hit unmarked watermain and busted it.

The temp should be no more than 50 in the summer heat at ground level of 110.

Unless you are in one of the few wet all year round areas of Arizona you will find that the temperature will be closer to 70º.

If you know if any mines or tunnels in the area check them out and they will tell you what the underground temps will be.
I have worked as a underground miner to in many climate areas from the High Sierras to the desert near death valley Calif.

Desert area underground temps run about 70º.
Dry high forested mountain areas run lower in the 60ºs
Wet mines run in the 50ºs but the wetness will cause a dangerous condition as everything stays wet and wet clothing will cause hypothermia in short order

I have too thought about the possibility of building a shelter, I will eventually construct on behind my house when I finally buy one and settle down. However I am not of the doom and gloom crowd that thinks the entire world will end in two years by bombs leveling everything like the movie "The Road"

I do think however that building a shelter is a great idea if not for "Oh Crap!" scenarios, but for legitimate threats like tornados, hurricanes or major fires. Social order and breakdown is a more likely cause to have a shelter than war, but since no war has been waged on our soil in a long time, eventually someone will get the bright idea to try it and then you're shelter will be the heaven that others would wish for.

Using it as a nice little retreat from the house is good to if the mrs. is on your butt, but as others suggested I have some suggestions for you.

1. Make your roof arched with the center being at the shallowest depth (your 3') Arches are the strongest natural form of reinforcement, look at most bridges, they are either arched below, or suspended with arches from above in a mirror image.

2. Find old car alternators and car batteries and store them. A really neat idea came from an old Charlton Heston movie most younger folks might not know of called "Soylent Green". I'm a big movie buff so I watch alot of older stuff, but he used a bicycle with no tire on the rear rim that ran a belt attached to the car's alternator so that he could continuously charge the car battery when needed. If staying underground for extended periods of time this would be handy, but sticking with Marine deep cycle no-maintenence batteries would be best as well.

3. Invest in dry stock. Keep away from box food that spoils. Seeds and various plants that you can artificially grow with artificial light in a little "mini-lab" is a good idea for a renewable food source.

4. Entertainment. Decks of cards are fine, but for the sake of boredom don't forget to put in some board games and various other things to keep your mind off of why you are stuck there in the first place.

5. Extra light bulbs or flourescent lights. Cheap, flat storage in bulk boxes will assure that you have plenty of light to last a long time. Candles are also a big must.

6. Look at army surplus stores for emergency survival gear such as waterproof matches and other things like flint, fire starter, camping utensils or other things that compact to save your very valuable space.

The most difficult thing I would imagine to deal with would be fresh water. Large 50 gallon drums can be bought for a decent price which can be filled to the brim and stored, however what if you want to take a shower? Plumbing is your biggest issue.

Outside basic construction, give yourself an alternate exit. you never know when or if some crazy individual finds your little peice of heaven and wants to take it for themselves, with or without your consent. If you have to cut and run, at least give yourself the option of twos, not just one.

Most important of all of these: Keep it quiet. Do not tell everyone you have it, only those instructed to go there in an emergency need know where it is, last thing you need is the neighbor pleading with you to save their child and their entire eight person family for a shelter made for two-to-four. Building codes and restrictions by building commissions might make it a pain as well. How can you hide if the structure is registered with the state and you pay to have it inspected? Best to find a contractor to work with you under the table for a little extra cash to make sure the shelter is up to safety standards and you aren't prematurely signing your death warrant.

Post your drawings and designs. I was into cad drafting as well as currently in 3d modelling. I need practice for my college degree, so maybe I could help you sometime with some renderings before you start to build hardcore. I also have friends in drafting who can help you draw up proper blueprints free of charge from the local commission.

Good luck to you sir.

King

if you do go the route i was suggesting make sure to have plenty of ventilation. being a confined space and all. also concrete has a tendency to sweat

Originally posted by SUICIDEHK45
reply to post by awakentired

 

I had a online manual, that I will try to find, but it said that for a fallout shelter one would be best suited to have about 14 ft of dirt on top...I think

3 feet of earth equivalent mass is all you need.

Less thickness for denser material such as steel or lead.

www.oism.org...

Book is "Nuclear War Survival Skills"

This site also has a lot of good info.

www.ki4u.com...

The problems you run into after waiting out the fallout
may be harder to deal than dodging the fallout.

Some of the longer lasting particles will end up in the soil
and could end up in the plants.

The water will be ok after awhile and there will be wells.

I'd recommend a geiger counter, but it will only check
for certain particle type but it is better than nothing.

A lot of info out there, make sure and read it more than once.

Good Luck to you all !

[edit on 7-7-2010 by Ex_MislTech]

Originally posted by ANNED

The temp should be no more than 50 in the summer heat at ground level of 110.

Unless you are in one of the few wet all year round areas of Arizona you will find that the temperature will be closer to 70º.

If you know if any mines or tunnels in the area check them out and they will tell you what the underground temps will be.
I have worked as a underground miner to in many climate areas from the High Sierras to the desert near death valley Calif.

Desert area underground temps run about 70º.
Dry high forested mountain areas run lower in the 60ºs
Wet mines run in the 50ºs but the wetness will cause a dangerous condition as everything stays wet and wet clothing will cause hypothermia in short order

I moved here from another city in AZ and had to deal with the "hot" cold water lines. Here I have an underground water tank and the cold water is cold year round.

Cities don't run the pipes deep enough to keep the water temp consistent.

reply to post by Kingalbrect79


thank you for your post. Well though out. I too have experience drafting. In my career I have been a manager of installations of avionic systems on aircraft. Did quite a few structure modificiations on the aircraft. I would just hire a contractor to review the design and do the loads analysis.
The building loads are quite simple compared to aircraft loads.

The "root cellar's " main purpose will be the safe storage of supplies. Fallout protection is just a byproduct. I only have 2.5 acres but I am intent on building and operating a Aquaponic greenhouse using either solar or wind energy exclusively.

Aquaponics is the merging of fish farming and hydroponics. The soil-less growing of veggies and herbs uses the dirty water from the fish tank. Water from the grow beds returns to the tank clean.

This system operates on 10 percent of the water used in conventional farming. Added bonus no weeds to pull and insect population is very low inside a greenhouse.

The root cellar will be storage for the excess from the garden. While I am a "survivor nut" my plans while unconventional are mainstream.

Currently there is an Aquaponics farm operating on 2 acres of greenhouses that produces enough veggies and fish to feed 1800 people yearly.

That's very interesting, do you happen to have a link to this facility so I could check it out? I've heard of the term but I never looked into the meaning of exactly now it operated. Considering how you explained it, this is something that I might adapt to fit my shelter as well.

I also want to have a facility to store extra food stock and various dry goods, however the plumbing, ventilation and temperature control issues were all very high on my list of crap to figure out.

I'd be very interested to research this process if you have some good sites to visit.

King

Here are some Aquaponics links.

attra.ncat.org...

www.growseed.org...

backyardaquaponics.com...

aquaponics.20megsfree.com...