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What should be done about the violence at our borders? Please vote.

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posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 07:59 PM
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The foundational problems with immigration in the USA have nothing to do with borders. The whole of it is a result of Keynesian 'control' over our labor markets, stimulus, and ultimately welfare.

Get rid of the wacked-out government programs and we wouldn't even need to have this conversation.

Plus, the only realistic way to stop illegal border crossings is to make America the suckiest place on Earth. Something I am sure we do not want.

The issue is not immigration, it is the entitlement system and the idea that government has the wherewithal and knowledge to somehow steer our market into a state of perpetual growth.




posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus


Should we bring out troops home, and place them on the border, with orders to shoot?




Not only that, but there should be land mines placed on our side of the border and there presence should be broadcast to the Mexicans over tv, and radio and large signs should be placed announcing their presence.

You probably would not need to even put land mines down. Just announce they are there and occasionally detonate a few grenades so they can hear them.

[edit on 7-5-2010 by groingrinder]



posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 08:19 PM
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Arizona's new law may help that state.

And no i don't mean there anti immigrant law.

But there new concealed weapons law.
www.azcentral.com...

Gang members. cartel groups, drug users. and illegals committing crimes will have to be very careful.

Or be dead.

And if it works in Arizona i expect Texas to come up with a similar law



posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by groingrinder
 




Not only that, but there should be land mines placed on our side of the border and there presence should be broadcast to the Mexicans over tv, and radio and large signs should be placed announcing their presence.


Terrible idea. Land mines are quite possibly one of the most inhumane defensive ideas ever conceived.

Mines last a long time, and will kill anybody indiscriminately. Children are still dying in countries like Cambodia long after the mines were set.

Not only that, but you endanger the lives of American Citizens. Mines kill indiscriminately. Mine use is excessive and in my opinion, murder.

Think before you speak.



posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 08:35 PM
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Do you really want the border secure? I mean really secure?

Let the IDF secure it.

Sorry, I just had to say that.

Seriously, if the employers are not held to task for hiring illegals, then no fence, or armed sentries will make a bit of difference as those entering illegally to obtain work will continue to cross.

Make drug and weapon smuggling at the border a capital offense, and if the drug cartels want a fight, then I'm sure if our battle hardened NG units were deployed along the border the cartels would be in for all the fight they could ever want. I know even though the cartels are well armed, our guns are bigger than theirs, make a lot more noise and place bigger holes in targets. And if push were to come to shove, we could establish a DMZ along the border, very similar to the 38th parallel. The cartels and any other potential terrorist need to know that we ain't playin'.



posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 08:36 PM
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How about an end to the drug war? Would eliminating the black market not eliminate the cartels, and would eliminating the cartels not end the violence in Mexico that is the major factor in driving people north?

Or does imprisoning people for drugs generate too much money for certain interests?



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


Yes. Yes. Yes. All good ideas. Then, toss out of office or position any elected official or law enforcement that refuses to do their JOB and protect the people they are supposed to protect. Next, place bounties on illegals, so citizens living on the borders can defend their homes and not be jailed for it,. but rewarded, instead. Finally, nationwide laws like some places have, making it illegal and painful (fines, jail time, etc.) for aiding illegals, through transportation, jobs, housing, etc. No amnesty, no benefits, no school. Only emergency medical care, en route to being sent back wherever they came from.

Know too many in border states that are fed up with it all. It's a war zone there, and the invasion needs to be stopped.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:29 AM
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Originally posted by WXBackdoor
reply to post by crazydaisy
 


That is exactly why hey come here , ex. that mother is thinking about her children when they cross the border.

They have two options , stay in Mexico with all the violence , economic struggle , probably see their children grow up to be poor and nothing , or come to the US , get a safer , better life and a better life for her children.

Is a struggle that you will probably never understand.


So when those "poor, struggling" mothers and their kids deplete the economy here to the point that America is like Mexico, where are my kids and grandkids going to go live? Answer that. Do you have any idea how much some people IN THE UNITED STATES are struggling now? I do.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by LadyGreenEyes
 





So when those "poor, struggling" mothers and their kids deplete the economy here to the point that America is like Mexico, where are my kids and grandkids going to go live?


Excellent posts, LadyGreenEyes!
Here are some FACTS concerning illegals and what they are doing to this economy. These facts dispel the myths that immigrants aren't hurting the US:

www.therealitycheck.org...



1.

Claim: “Illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans won’t.”



False: Americans will perform any legal job necessary to support themselves and their families. As an illustration, recently 70 US citizens were dismissed from an Alabama construction site by a foreman who said the dismissal was “because the Mexicans had arrived”. Linda Swopes, who operates Complete Employment Services in Mobile AL said: "I assure you it is not true that Americans don't want to work. We had been told that 270 jobs might be available, and we could have filled every one of them with men from this area, most of whom lost their jobs because of the hurricane." The identified Mexican illegal immigrant workers were simply willing to work for less money than were US citizens.
www.washtimes.com...

*
Claim: “Illegal immigrants help the American economy.”

False: Illegal immigrants to the US cost the country at least $10 billion more than they contribute to the economy. The CIS (Center for Immigration Studies) advises that if amnesty is put into place, these costs to the American economy (and the American taxpayer) will triple. The average illegal immigrant family uses $2,700/year more in services than it pays in taxes. In 2002, this amounted to a $10.4 billion drain on the federal budget. Some of the greatest federal costs included: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

www.cis.org...

*

Claim: “Illegal immigrants are just hard-working people who want jobs.”

False: The US Justice Department reported that in 2003, alone, 270,000 illegal immigrants had served prison time. The Federation for American Immigration Reform reports: "In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones; including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings. In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges."


The Federal Bureau of Prisons estimates that fully one-third of current prison populations are comprised of non-citizen illegals.


Islamic terrorists, including Mexicans with terrorist ties, have entered and are continuing to enter the US via our unsecured borders.

The violent MS-13 Salvadoran gangs have illegally immigrated across the US-Mexico border. MS-13 has also vowed to kill local police, Border Patrol agents and US citizen-members of the Minutemen project, within the US.



www.newsmax.com...

www.tucsonweekly.com...

www.msnbc.msn.com...

www.usatoday.com...

www.washtimes.com...

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Claim: “Illegal aliens help keep cost of goods down”

Misleading and false: Although marketplace agricultural products are estimated to be somewhat lower than they would be if US citizens were performing the jobs illegals carry out, the cost to US taxpayers in free services to illegals vastly outweighs any savings to the US consumer. And illegal immigrants are no longer solely operating in agriculture but, have expanded out into multiple industries. In Los Angeles, 49-year old construction worker Michael Williams (jobless for 3 months) said outside of a Home Depot: "You have a lot of illegal aliens here. It takes food off the table." The spread of illegals into other industries is increasing geometrically.


www.usatoday.com...

*
Claim: “Illegal immigrants are being denied [their] civil rights”

False: Civil rights pertain ONLY to citizens. The Merriam-Webster online Dictionary defines civil-rights as: “The nonpolitical rights of a citizen; especially: the rights of personal liberty guaranteed to U.S. citizens by the 13th and 14th amendments to the Constitution and by acts of Congress.” If one is not a citizen of the country, civil rights do not apply.

www.m-w.com...

*

Claim: “Illegal immigrants are law-abiding citizens”

False: First and foremost, by the very nature of illegal immigrants being in the country “illegally”, they are neither following nor abiding by US law. Also, illegal immigrants are increasingly using bogus or stolen Social Security numbers. The crime of Identity Fraud being affected by illegal immigrants has become a growing and sever problem. Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ) commented: "If the government bothered to look, it could find abundant evidence of illegal aliens gaming our system and the unscrupulous employers who are aiding and abetting them.”

www.dfw.com...


*
Claim: “Illegal immigrants only want to become US citizens’

False: Although many illegals are demanding US citizenship, and to be given special consideration ahead of those who have applied legally, a marked number of Hispanics do not want it. But, they do demand the “same rights” as US citizens. Many Hispanic groups, including (but not limited to) MEChA, the Mexica Movement and LULAC, are supporting and working toward the re-conquest (“reconquista”) of the United States. These groups are, also, becoming increasingly militant.

72.14.203.104...:zb7zb5AZ1w8J:transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0603/31/ldt.01.html+Reconquista+movement&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=20&cl ient=firefox-a

washingtontimes.com...

*
Claim: “Illegal aliens are honest and contribute little to crime”

Misleading: Many are hard working. However, in Los Angeles, alone, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens. “A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal.”

www.city-journal.org...
*

Claim: “The claim that illegal immigrants drain US services is a myth”

False: From the L.A. Times and Rice University’s Professor Donald Huddle: “Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 29% are on welfare.” And as far back as 1997, according to Huddle, the cost of illegal immigration to the American taxpayer was a net (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay) $69 Billion.


www.freedomalliance.org...


*
Claim: “Illegals do not drive down US workers’ wages”

False: As already presented, illegal immigrants from Mexico are working for far less money than US citizen workers and on a regular basis. An 18 April 2006 article in WSJ by Professor of Economics and Social Policy at Harvard University George J. Borjas (“For a Few Dollars Less”) quotes Paul Samuelson: “…an increase in supply [of workers] will, other things being equal, tend to depress wage rates." Although Samuelson’s conclusions were, for years, disputed, recently they have been proving to be accurate.



Borjas writes: “My Harvard colleague Lawrence Katz and I recently examined the impact of the 1980-2000 immigrant influx (and particularly Mexican-origin immigration) for U.S. wages. The results are that, in the short run -- holding all other things equal -- immigration lowered the wage of native workers, particularly of those workers with the least education. The wage fell by 3% for the average worker and by 8% for high school dropouts.” He further concludes: “These effects imply sizable reductions in annual earnings for low-skill workers. In 2000, the typical high school dropout earned $25,000, so that immigration reduced his earnings by $1,200, even after all capital adjustments take place. Mr. Katz and I also examined how much was due to Mexican immigration. We calculated what the wage effects would have been had there been no Mexican immigration between 1980 and 2000. We found that Mexican immigration, which is predominantly low-skill, accounts for all of the adverse impact of immigration on low-skill natives.” In NRO (National Review Online), Borjas continues with: “In fact, immigration may have depressed the wages of low-skilled workers by 5 to 8 percentage points.”



All of the above FACTS are backed up with references. These facts, unfortunately will never be reported on the left stream media.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:59 PM
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To stop the violence, which is mostly drug related, you just have to legalize drugs. As for immigration, I dont buy into the idea that I deserve to live here more than other people, so I think they just need to make it easier for people to LEGALLY immigrate, if your a legal immigrant you pay taxes and what not, sounds fair to me.

[edit on 6-7-2010 by CREAM]



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:04 PM
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Originally posted by crazydaisy
Should Obama be impeached for failure to protect our borders?

Should we bring out troops home, and place them on the border, with orders to shoot?

I vote for both of the above. Only problem is "we" are not the ones that can bring our troops home.


I also agree with this but it seems only sex scandals impeach a president. I personally think every state should become segrigated from the US gov and then they will have no country. With no country they hav no soldiers and then we can move forward with the next 200 years of democracy.

Little somthing a friend sent me:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government."

"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury."

"From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The Average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years."

"During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith.

2. From spiritual faith to great courage.

3. From courage to liberty.

4. From liberty to abundance.

5. From abundance to complacency.

6. From complacency to apathy.

7. From apathy to dependence.

8. From dependence back to bondage."



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:07 PM
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Originally posted by CREAM
To stop the violence, which is mostly drug related, you just have to legalize drugs. As for immigration, I dont buy into the idea that I deserve to live here more than other people, so I think they just need to make it easier for people to LEGALLY immigrate, if your a legal immigrant you pay taxes and what not, sounds fair to me.

[edit on 6-7-2010 by CREAM]


Sounds good to an extent. After all most perscription drugs are more deadly.

Unfortunently this will never happen in this miss lead religion based country.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:07 PM
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reply to post by CREAM
 





As for immigration, I dont buy into the idea that I deserve to live here more than other people, so I think they just need to make it easier for people to LEGALLY immigrate, if your a legal immigrant you pay taxes and what not, sounds fair to me.


Actually, becoming a LEGAL immigrant has rules in place that are necessary. For instance, if you are bringing someone into your family from another country, you must SHOW that they will not become a burden financially on the government. In addition, they must provide evidence of their past, criminal checks are done, etc. These rules are in place to prevent what unfortunately is happening now because of illegal immigration. If you merely allow people in, in an uncontrolled and unchecked way, chaos ensues. The chaos that we see now is a result of these checks and balances being bypassed.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:08 PM
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What should be done?

Eliminate social welfare programs and legalize drugs.

problem solved.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:14 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Here's some honest solutions that will never come to fruition because American politics is infantile at best, corrupt at worst:

1. Change drug policy...Meaning that we must take away the underground aspect of drug use in this country. So long as we have an insatiable hunger for drugs, there will be cartels out there to meet the demand.

2. Force employers to check immigration status prior to hiring.

3. Build a real fence. Station national guard until more border patrol can be hired.

4. End NAFTA. This policy has encouraged illegal immigration and government corruption in Mexico.

5. End aid to Mexico until their policy of aiding illegal migration to the US is stopped.

6. I know this will be unpopular: The ones already here, who have lived in the US for more than 5 years, have a clean background, should be forced to pay a large fine, pay any backed taxes they may owe, be required to learn English, and forced to the back of the line.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by projectvxn
 


I agree, in general, with your proposals. Of course, as you said, those proposals will never see fruition, since politically, both parties BELIEVE that they gain from the current situation.
NAFTA has accelerated the decline of the US economic health more than any other act of Congress.
Personally, I believe that our "elected" officials are the greatest enemy that we have to freedom and prosperity, excluding, of course, THEIR prosperity.
Flagged!



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



6. I know this will be unpopular: The ones already here, who have lived in the US for more than 5 years, have a clean background, should be forced to pay a large fine, pay any backed taxes they may owe, be required to learn English, and forced to the back of the line.


To this part I would add that if they do not pay the fines, backed taxes or meet any other qualification and standards, deportation is the next step. No Exceptions.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 6-7-2010 by projectvxn]



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

Or, do you have any other ideas?

This cannot continue as is.


Well, If I were going to do anything that would gain the EXTREME ATTENTION of the American People of the United States and the world for that matter and create a scene that the MSM absolutly could not ignore or supress in any way, this is what I would do.

( I would have a TEA PARTY type get together at the border. I would invite everyone who wanted to attend and have it from the California border all the way to the end of the Texas border. I think I would ask everyone to bring their tents and a weeks supply of food and water and have a big event. Try to get the numbers in the 1 million or so range and go from their.

In other words, A MASSIVE AMERICAN CAMP OUT RIGHT ON THE BORDER. WE CAN CALL IT ( THE GREAT AMERICAN CAMP OUT )

If you think this is a good idea, let me know.

An idea that would put people on the border and and force the action of law enforcement to patrol the area just to make sure the peace is maintained.

Bad economy, people out of work, need a vacation, just take a camping trip!

BBQ's, water stations, food stations, and porta johns optional and recommended. Form a commitee and start a collection.

Obama is a lier and fraud and will do nothing to secure border.

Eye of Eagle



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:36 PM
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I think we should impeach Obama, secondly I think they should secede from the union, because they would just replace Obama with another treasonous globalist.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:38 PM
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I believe that the one option will be that the current President will try to do nothing, only to offer amnesty in hopes to gather a large voting block. Obama and all politicians are in a lose/lose situation, as they can not act with out losing a part of their voter base, and at the same time can no longer sit idly by and do nothing, as more of the people are demanding that they actually do something.
I believe the solution will be painful and result in some riots, and violence, as well as will be hard, but necessary. My solution would be the following:
1) As much as I abhore violence, I would send more troops to the border states to secure the border, posting signs that if you shoot, we will respond with deadly force, and protect those who are securing the border, from criminial prosecution.
2) I would take a page from the soviet unions book, build an iron curtain, going from the pacific to the gulf of mexico, with sensors above and below the ground, razor wire, watch towers, and land mines. Heavy patrols with attack dogs and use all technology present.
3) I would demand the immediate deportation of all illegale immigrants, giving them 1 month to turn themselves in, and it is a free trip, no punishment no jail time.
4) Any and all illegale immigrants who come into the country or hide and are caught would be subject to a mandatory 20 years hard labor. The Prisons would be set up similar to some of the foriegn countries in latin and south america.
5) I would tell all countries who complain, to clean up their own house, and to tell their people to come through the front door.
6) I would turn around and change immigration policy, the first being that all countries wanting to send workers here would have to provide all information about the people wanting to live here, all criminal, and medical records, going back a good 15 years, any gaps or unverified information would result in denial of entry. And those here would be monitored.
7) There would be no sancutary cities. Going to be one, ok, no federal aid and you own the US government 30000 dollars per estimated illegale immigrant that is present, if you can not pay, then the authorities move in to sweep the entire county. All those caught, immediate prison time, all those harboring, well prison, don't care if it is a church or not.
8) Anchor babies, no longer going to happen, they will not be granted us citizenship, and if they are, they stay in foster care/orphanages, their parents are deported.
That is my solution, hard, yes, unpopular yes, but would be very effective, removing all illegale immigrants in less than 6 months, securing the border and having a new immigration policy.



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