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Undeniable Proof?

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posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 



When Christ went back to his home of Nazareth, it does say that he could not perform very many miracle due to the lack of belief in the town. Maybe worshiping is the path that lets it happen at a faster pace.


Hmm! Interesting! I'd like to respond to this point.

If God had to rely on people to believe in him, then he is not all powerful. An all powerful god could simply make himself be able to perform any action without the assistance or any kind of requirement.

And if he is not all powerful and does require our love in order to perform miracles, then it seems we pretty much only fuel.

Kind regards

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Hitotsumami]




posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by Conclusion
 



When Christ went back to his home of Nazareth, it does say that he could not perform very many miracle due to the lack of belief in the town. Maybe worshiping is the path that lets it happen at a faster pace.


Hmm! Interesting! I'd like to respond to this point.

If God had to rely on people to believe in him, then he is not all powerful. An all powerful god could simply make himself be able to perform any action without the assistance or any kind of requirement.

And if he is not all powerful and does require our love in order to perform miracles, then it seems we pretty much only fuel.

Kind regards

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Hitotsumami]


That could be. I think it has more to do with the people not believing so a miracle (which is good) could have been done. Now this was Christ. He was in a mans body. I am not sure if he had limitations, but it would seem so in that scenario. That being said, I do not think it put any limitations on God the Father.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:03 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


Ah, the requirement possibility was directed towards Christ, not God? Well that might make more sense, since he was a in man's body, as you said.

I do wonder how that process could be done? If one loved God, what physically happened that gave Jesus the power to perform a miracle?

It all seems very odd to me. But it seems we do agree that the God in the bible has no requirements or limitations when performing miracles.

Kind regards



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by hippomchippo
 


When I look at the creation, it's complexity and the formation of the human in the womb and it's complexity, I find that is all the proof that is needed.
Just an example or two: In the Old Testament, it was commanded that a male child be circumcised on the 8th day. Why the 8th day? Why not the first, second or third? It was later discovered that blood platlets (sp?) were not formed until the 8th day of life thus preventing the child from bleeding to death.
Another example: Now, I am not a scientist so I don't know the proper MPH I should be using here, I have read it and I am too lazy right now to look it up, but, of course all of this is documented and easily found. Anyway...the Earth is travelling around the Sun at so many thousands of MPH. The galaxy is travelling through space at thousands of MPH toward something called "the great attractor". Now we manage to stay on the face of the Earth through something, a therory....yes ...therory.. that we call gravity. Gravity is a therory...there is no proof. Science cannot put it's finger on a particle and say this is a gravity particle. I know ...if I don't believe in gravity go jump off the house...I know it sounds absurd, but I think you see my point. Let's say that a basketball represents the mass of the earth and a grain of sand represents the mass of say an aircraft carrier. All mass has this thing called gravity. So place a grain of sand on a basketball and spin it and throw it...no just spin it...is the grain of sand still there ...no. Not scientific I know, but you see my point.
Seeashrink



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:15 PM
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reply to post by Hitotsumami
 


To tell you the truth, I believe that through one's own belief they are cured. Another bible passage states that a woman that had an issue of blood (not really sure what the problem was) just touched Christ's clothes and was healed.

Matthew 9:20
And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with and issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment.
9:21
For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
9:22
But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said,"Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made the whole.

So her own faith healed her. Faith is something that I really need to deliberate on. Is it just belief? I am not sure at this moment.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


Interesting response! This story seems very odd to me. The reason is because there are countless of people who believe in Christ and God, who worship him daily and keep his word, but at the same time they have cancer, and they are not helped.

I am unsure that faith does anything! If we're keeping with the original premise about God is real and all of that, it seems God picks and chooses. Faith just puts you in the lottery. If you win is up to God.

Kind regards



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by hippomchippo
 


When I look at the creation, it's complexity and the formation of the human in the womb and it's complexity, I find that is all the proof that is needed.
Just an example or two: In the Old Testament, it was commanded that a male child be circumcised on the 8th day. Why the 8th day? Why not the first, second or third? It was later discovered that blood platlets (sp?) were not formed until the 8th day of life thus preventing the child from bleeding to death.
Another example: Now, I am not a scientist so I don't know the proper MPH I should be using here, I have read it and I am too lazy right now to look it up, but, of course all of this is documented and easily found. Anyway...the Earth is travelling around the Sun at so many thousands of MPH. The galaxy is travelling through space at thousands of MPH toward something called "the great attractor". Now we manage to stay on the face of the Earth through something, a therory....yes ...therory.. that we call gravity. Gravity is a therory...there is no proof. Science cannot put it's finger on a particle and say this is a gravity particle. I know ...if I don't believe in gravity go jump off the house...I know it sounds absurd, but I think you see my point. Let's say that a basketball represents the mass of the earth and a grain of sand represents the mass of say an aircraft carrier. All mass has this thing called gravity. So place a grain of sand on a basketball and spin it and throw it...no just spin it...is the grain of sand still there ...no. Not scientific I know, but you see my point.
Seeashrink


Wait what? Gravity has proof. I want to know where you've been. We have a moon orbiting us!



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by hippomchippo
 


When I look at the creation, it's complexity and the formation of the human in the womb and it's complexity, I find that is all the proof that is needed.
Just an example or two: In the Old Testament, it was commanded that a male child be circumcised on the 8th day. Why the 8th day? Why not the first, second or third? It was later discovered that blood platlets (sp?) were not formed until the 8th day of life thus preventing the child from bleeding to death.
Another example: Now, I am not a scientist so I don't know the proper MPH I should be using here, I have read it and I am too lazy right now to look it up, but, of course all of this is documented and easily found. Anyway...the Earth is travelling around the Sun at so many thousands of MPH. The galaxy is travelling through space at thousands of MPH toward something called "the great attractor". Now we manage to stay on the face of the Earth through something, a therory....yes ...therory.. that we call gravity. Gravity is a therory...there is no proof. Science cannot put it's finger on a particle and say this is a gravity particle. I know ...if I don't believe in gravity go jump off the house...I know it sounds absurd, but I think you see my point. Let's say that a basketball represents the mass of the earth and a grain of sand represents the mass of say an aircraft carrier. All mass has this thing called gravity. So place a grain of sand on a basketball and spin it and throw it...no just spin it...is the grain of sand still there ...no. Not scientific I know, but you see my point.
Seeashrink

We know quite a bit about how eggs are fertilized and babies are born.
Let me get this straight, because we don't fully understand gravity, we should believe in a God?
It's a good thing you brought up us hurdling through space as a speck in a galaxy, why would God come down to us and give us his ONLY begotten son?
Surely there are some more righteous aliens out there that deserves jesus more.
Just things to think about.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:25 PM
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reply to post by Phlynx
 

I understand that there is proof of gravity, but it is still considered a therory, and again, there is nothing that can be seen that is labeled gravity. But as you said, we have a moon orbiting our earth..by gravity, at least what we call gravity. So you don't see gravity, but you see the results of it. You don't see the wind, but you see the results of it. You believe in these things because you see the results of them. Can you not see the results of God and believe in Him.
Seeashrink



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by seeashrink
 


Interesting post! I'd like to respond.


I understand that there is proof of gravity, but it is still considered a therory, and again, there is nothing that can be seen that is labeled gravity. But as you said, we have a moon orbiting our earth..by gravity, at least what we call gravity. So you don't see gravity, but you see the results of it.


As far as I am aware, gravity is the 'indention' or 'warping' of spacetime. The higher mass, the more of a 'dent' in spacetime, the greater the gravity. So of course there is nothing we can label gravity, because gravity has no physical form. It is simply the name we give to the warping of spacetime. It is more of an action, instead of a thing.

If I am mistaken, please correct me! I don't want to give some kind of wrong information!


You don't see the wind, but you see the results of it. You believe in these things because you see the results of them.


Technically, we can see the wind, in it's molecular form. We know what it is made of. Lots of atoms of different elements.

Kind regards

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Hitotsumami]



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by Phlynx
 

I understand that there is proof of gravity, but it is still considered a therory, and again, there is nothing that can be seen that is labeled gravity. But as you said, we have a moon orbiting our earth..by gravity, at least what we call gravity. So you don't see gravity, but you see the results of it. You don't see the wind, but you see the results of it. You believe in these things because you see the results of them. Can you not see the results of God and believe in Him.
Seeashrink



I think you really need to find the true definition of scientific theory.

On the point, I see no evidence of God in this world. I try to see where you are coming from, but I just cannot see it.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by Phlynx

Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by Phlynx
 

I understand that there is proof of gravity, but it is still considered a therory, and again, there is nothing that can be seen that is labeled gravity. But as you said, we have a moon orbiting our earth..by gravity, at least what we call gravity. So you don't see gravity, but you see the results of it. You don't see the wind, but you see the results of it. You believe in these things because you see the results of them. Can you not see the results of God and believe in Him.
Seeashrink



I think you really need to find the true definition of scientific theory.

On the point, I see no evidence of God in this world. I try to see where you are coming from, but I just cannot see it.

He's using the complexity argument I think.
"I don't understand how things got here or how things develop, therefore God did it"



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


Follow? Depends what you mean by that..


The core of Christianity—the worship of a miracle working, walking, talking godman who brings salvation—was also the core of other ancient religions that began at least a thousand years before Jesus.

Heaven, hell, prophecy, daemon possession, sacrifice, initiation by baptism, communion with God through a holy meal, the Holy Spirit, monotheism, immortality of the soul, and many other "Christian" ideas all belonged to earlier, older Pagan faiths. They were simply part of ancient Mediterranean culture. Along with miracle working sons of God, born of a mortal woman, they were common elements of pre-Christian Pagan religion. Mithras had 'em. So did Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus. And more.

And they had them generations—centuries— before Jesus was a twinkle in Saint Paul's eye.


The Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth

So it's a myth. But I will support anyone who has good ideas to bring forth a positive change in the world. These myths are scattered all over the world, almost every religion has them. It just may be that all the major religions have a common root, from where they all branched from.

But even if they are myths.. there may be some truth to them. All these messiah myths appear on regular basis. Where do these phenomenons come from? And what's the meaning? It's quite obvious that it isn't just random.

[edit on 4/7/2010 by Tryptych]



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by hippomchippo
 

Well, the question was about "if we knew there was a God" I say that we can see the evidence of an unseen God by what is seen. Hebrews 11:1 state: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
As far as the alien question; if there is life on other planets that is fine with me because they were created by God. God being the same in all space, time, and demensions means that they would have the same Jesus as Saviour, the same faith, good, bad, right, wrong, etc.
Seeashrink



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by hippomchippo
 

Well, the question was about "if we knew there was a God" I say that we can see the evidence of an unseen God by what is seen. Hebrews 11:1 state: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
As far as the alien question; if there is life on other planets that is fine with me because they were created by God. God being the same in all space, time, and demensions means that they would have the same Jesus as Saviour, the same faith, good, bad, right, wrong, etc.
Seeashrink


But God says specifically that he gave us his ONLY begotten son.
And you might think that it's god doing these things in nature, but scientifically, we have very laid out and very well explained ideas of how fetus's form, trees grow, etc.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by Tryptych
 


Okay, by now it is obvious you just don't know. I will place you in the no category.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by hippomchippo
 


I agree, I did not mean to imply that there was more that one Jesus.
I cannot convince you of God's existance no more than you can convince me that He does not exist. Personally, I believe that all science does is discover and label what God has created.
Seeashrink



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by seeashrink
reply to post by hippomchippo
 


I agree, I did not mean to imply that there was more that one Jesus.
I cannot convince you of God's existance no more than you can convince me that He does not exist. Personally, I believe that all science does is discover and label what God has created.
Seeashrink

Both I consider impossible.
But what we do know is that science has helped us through quite a bit and has allowed us to understand things in nature alot better than God has, atleast in my opinion.
Nice talking to you though.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


It isn't that simple. Many things that Christ said (according to the Bible) are very multi-layered, hard to understand allegories.

Like "come through me" etc.. could be understood in many ways. The Bible has been rewritten and changed over and over. It's really hard to find the original scriptures and to be sure that they really are original.

Many of the Christian rituals may have some real basis. Like saying grace at the dinner table. It's been now proven that thought patterns and blessings etc. have effect on water molecules. So, if our food is largely composed out of water, imagine what that does to the food?

There's a lot stuff like that. The baptism (also done with holy water) have possibly similar meaning.

So maybe the "christ" could be seen as a perfected man, who is inside of all of us. Sort of a divine prototype, in connection with something we don't understand and call "god". An illuminated man. So when we are out of touch with this "christ" (or whatever) inside of us, we "sin" (aka, we err) because we don't fully understand the consequences of our actions. And then, suffering occurs.

I'm gonna smoke a cigarette now.


[edit on 4/7/2010 by Tryptych]



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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It wouldn't change things for me at all. I would go on with life as normal. I would not go to church, I would not pray and I would not worship. If the life i've lead isn't up to the god beings standards, then oh well. I live my life the way I want to and live based on who I am. No existence of a god being or alien life or alternate dimensions etc. etc. are going to change that.



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