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Undeniable Proof?

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posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


Thanks for your response!


Correct me if I am wrong, but would you consider than maybe your morals where wrong if faced with the knowledge that God is the one who created morals?


My morals are to help people, not deceive them, teach them, and hope they live good lives. If my morals are wrong, then God's morals are not good.

Let's go through my morals and compare them with God's.

Does God help people? As far as I have read in the Bible, yes. He has helped many people, but at the cost of many other peoples lives. I do not see this is as good. An all powerful and all loving God can find a way to help everyone without killing.

Does God deceive people? If we take the Bible as literally true, as many, many people do, then many things in science contradict what God says is true.

Does God teach people? He does teach them many things. In the Old Testament, he teaches how to punish people for things I consider non harmful. He teaches them many bad things. He never seems to teach people how the world works, or how to take care of themselves by giving them cures for diseases.

Does God hope people live good lives? I guess so! The definition of Good in many circumstances for God does not seem good to me.

So even if my morals were wrong, I still do not see a reason to follow God's.

Kind regards




posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by Exalted321
reply to post by hippomchippo
 



When you put it in terms like that do you feel that way because you want to follow god in every way or are you afraid to question? I think that fear drives people to believe because they are afraid of what you would call hell because of their actions while they are alive.

So i ask you this, if there was undeniable proof of god would you be forever in fear of your actions in life because of the "possibility" of eternal damnation?



But what if God gave you a free pass out of hell? What is there to fear then?



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


I responded to your previous point, but you posted while I was responding. I will now answer this one.


Given there was proof of God, would not you consider that he does what he does for the overall good? That maybe he might know something that we do not? We would all have to examine our own roles in life.


For the overall good? I would have to have proof that what he does is for the overall good. I do not see how creating people God knows will go to Hell and suffer forever, but allows them to come into existence anyway, is overall good in any way.

There are other examples as well. This is just one.

Kind regards



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:27 PM
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What if the creator of life on earth was just on one of those Von Neumann probes for example. Seeds of life planted by a far advanced alien civilisation (gods) millions of years ago...

Although coming back round to the topic question, it would definately change the way i think about things if there was undeniable proof like i think it would many people but, tbh if there was proof of a creator in the religious god/christ sense then i would be alot more shocked as i personally dont believe this is the case.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by Hitotsumami
 


Fair enough. Why do you think God did what he did? Because he is evil? Christ said a house divided cannot stand. Everything happens for a reason. If we do not understand something we usually look it up or ask someone that does. How about, given proof, you would just ask God why he did it and listen to his explanation, then you will have all the sources to make the best decision.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by Exalted321
reply to post by hippomchippo
 



When you put it in terms like that do you feel that way because you want to follow god in every way or are you afraid to question? I think that fear drives people to believe because they are afraid of what you would call hell because of their actions while they are alive.

So i ask you this, if there was undeniable proof of god would you be forever in fear of your actions in life because of the "possibility" of eternal damnation?


I don't fear to question, but if it's a god who has ultimate knowledge, he should have the ultimate morality and therefore mine would be inferior.
I would sincerely ask him many questions
Like why didn't he simply destroy the devil during the last 2000 years?
Or why he simply never created satan to begin with.
If there was undeniable proof of a god who would torture me forever for the things in the bible, sure I would be afraid, but I know I would do all those things in the bible because I don't want to be tortured forever.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:29 PM
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All beliefs in God are based on faith......UNLESS the person has had an Awakening, Enlightenment, or Near Death Experience (NDE). These lucky few KNOW what awaits us after this life. You can pray to (insert your God here) till the cows come home and still only HOPE and HAVE FAITH that your God is real. There seems to be alot of "faithful" believers that are terrified to die when the time actually comes. A person who has had an NDE will never again fear death, because they now KNOW there is NO SUCH THING. A person who has had a mind blowing mystical experience such as an Awakening can come back with the real Truth......which is that we are ALL GOD, no matter what faith, color, or belief. We tend to take such a simplistic view of our Reality! In truth Reality is God itself! ALL of us, ALL of matter and energy in every dimension there is. Imagine zillions of dimensions each holding zillions of universes that have been fractally multiplying eternally. THIS IS WHAT "GOD" IS. Everything. Everywhere. Always and Forever. To limit God to a certain faith or prophet is totally ludicrous. We are God. We have been God for Eternity. We "play" in this and countless other lives/dimensions to gain experience and to HAVE FUN. It's what God does! There is no good/evil, there is only Being. We are here to experience EVERYTHING there is to experience in every possible universe. Forever. Some Realities like this one cause a veil of forget to drop over us upon birth. (though some kids "remember" till 4 or 5) The only goal of life is to connect with your "God-Self" and REMEMBER WHO YOU REALLY ARE. We make everything so complicated! When the truth is so simple that when it hits you all you can do is laugh/cry in AWE at the utter simplicity of it all. And never again will you fear "death".....because you know that you are GOD and the next game you play will be so unbelievably freakin COOL. And you finally RELAX and LIVE LIFE w/o fear....with a sly smile on your face because you have found the true Secret.

Namaste-
-Boypony



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


I would expect that if there was judgment a free pass from hell to heaven would be a gift greater than all but why would anyone be given a free pass? If your sins can be wiped out no matter what you do then what is the need for hell?

Given the fact that is there is no undeniable proof of god, Do you fear to question the fact that there might not be a higher power, an all knowing all seeing god?



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by hippomchippo
 


Wow.. I do see you point in that respect.

Nice thinking.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:32 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 



Fair enough. Why do you think God did what he did? Because he is evil? Christ said a house divided cannot stand. Everything happens for a reason. If we do not understand something we usually look it up or ask someone that does. How about, given proof, you would just ask God why he did it and listen to his explanation, then you will have all the sources to make the best decision.


Thanks for responding! I responded to another point you made, but you might have missed it, or you are reading it now, haha.

It kind of connects to this point.

I need to specify something. Would we have all access to talk with God and receive an answer for the reasons he does certain things that do not seem possibly good in any way? If we are, then I would certainly ask, and based on God's response, I would then decide if it was truly good or not.

Kind regards



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by Exalted321
reply to post by Conclusion
 


I would expect that if there was judgment a free pass from hell to heaven would be a gift greater than all but why would anyone be given a free pass? If your sins can be wiped out no matter what you do then what is the need for hell?

Given the fact that is there is no undeniable proof of god, Do you fear to question the fact that there might not be a higher power, an all knowing all seeing god?


Very good question. Maybe for the one's that when faced with undeniable proof and still reject their creator. That would be my guess anyway.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by Conclusion
 



Fair enough. Why do you think God did what he did? Because he is evil? Christ said a house divided cannot stand. Everything happens for a reason. If we do not understand something we usually look it up or ask someone that does. How about, given proof, you would just ask God why he did it and listen to his explanation, then you will have all the sources to make the best decision.


Thanks for responding! I responded to another point you made, but you might have missed it, or you are reading it now, haha.

It kind of connects to this point.

I need to specify something. Would we have all access to talk with God and receive an answer for the reasons he does certain things that do not seem possibly good in any way? If we are, then I would certainly ask, and based on God's response, I would then decide if it was truly good or not.

Kind regards


If that was the proof it took for you to believe then yes. Full access. That would be awesome.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by Conclusion
 


I see!

So let me review some things.

A undeniable proof of God comes forward. You are able to speak with God and receive an answer to any question you might have about why God does the certain things he does.

If God's answers make sense and really ARE overall for the good, then I would certainly follow him.

As a side point, I don't see why a God NEEDS worshiping, but I'm sure God would be able to answer that point too, haha!

Kind regards



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by Conclusion
 


I responded to your previous point, but you posted while I was responding. I will now answer this one.


Given there was proof of God, would not you consider that he does what he does for the overall good? That maybe he might know something that we do not? We would all have to examine our own roles in life.


For the overall good? I would have to have proof that what he does is for the overall good. I do not see how creating people God knows will go to Hell and suffer forever, but allows them to come into existence anyway, is overall good in any way.

There are other examples as well. This is just one.

Kind regards


You know I have read that some of the earliest churches believed everyone was going to heaven. Now why that changed I do not know, or even if it has changed.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by Boypony
 


And..your answer to my question? Yes or No.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread590378/

So...is that a yes or no from you?


I don't think there's such a simple answer to this. If we go looking for a bearded man in the sky, we can't find one, simply because it isn't rational. Or logical.

I do believe, however, that many of the allegories in the bible (and other "holy" scriptures) have some real basis. That's what they are. We can find similarities in these texts, f.e. the Genesis in the bible and the ancient Egyptian creation myths.. and like how "god" made man into his own image etc etc. It COULD mean how the soul/mind/whatever of "god" is reflected in us, in our psyche. Or in any living thing for that matter.

But maybe, if we want to understand what this is all about ("god", life), we should just study the phenomenons of the nature, from all angles. If we go reading some esoteric texts, word by word, it will probably get us nowhere. I think that the answers to every existential question (on this plane at least) are scattered all around us.

We should try to figure out what we're trying to find.

[edit on 4/7/2010 by Tryptych]



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by Conclusion
 


I see!

So let me review some things.

A undeniable proof of God comes forward. You are able to speak with God and receive an answer to any question you might have about why God does the certain things he does.

If God's answers make sense and really ARE overall for the good, then I would certainly follow him.

As a side point, I don't see why a God NEEDS worshiping, but I'm sure God would be able to answer that point too, haha!

Kind regards


That is a good question. Why does God need to be worshiped?


I don't know, unless it is just to show that we recognize his authority as the Creator. My best guess. lol



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by Conclusion

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by Conclusion
 


I see!

So let me review some things.

A undeniable proof of God comes forward. You are able to speak with God and receive an answer to any question you might have about why God does the certain things he does.

If God's answers make sense and really ARE overall for the good, then I would certainly follow him.

As a side point, I don't see why a God NEEDS worshiping, but I'm sure God would be able to answer that point too, haha!

Kind regards


That is a good question. Why does God need to be worshiped?


I don't know, unless it is just to show that we recognize his authority as the Creator. My best guess. lol

I always heard that in order for god to expand he needs to be loved, and that without our love he wouldn't expand and would...I dunno grow stale or something?
I'm not big on God stuff.
But it does make me think of how the universe is expanding...



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Tryptych

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread590378/

So...is that a yes or no from you?


I don't think there's such a simple answer to this. If we go looking for a bearded man in the sky, we can't find one, simply because it isn't rational. Or logical.

I do believe, however, that many of the allegories in the bible (and other "holy" scriptures) have some real basis. That's what they are. We can find similarities in these texts, f.e. the Genesis in the bible and the ancient Egyptian creation myths.. and like how "god" made man into his own image etc etc. It COULD mean how the soul/mind/whatever of "god" is reflected in us, in our psyche. Or in any living thing for that matter.

But maybe, if we want to understand what this is all about ("god", life), we should just study the phenomenons of the nature, from all angles. If we go reading some esoteric texts, word by word, it will probably get us nowhere. I think that the answers to every existential question (on this plane at least) are scattered all around us.

We should try to figure out what we're trying to find.

[edit on 4/7/2010 by Tryptych]


I agree with trying to find out from all angles. But if faced with any proof you needed that Christ was, is, and will be our Lord, would you follow him or not. It is easy to say yes or no to that. I mean I am just looking for a kind of percentage to take form to better initiate an overall perspective.



posted on Jul, 4 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by hippomchippo
 





I always heard that in order for god to expand he needs to be loved, and that without our love he wouldn't expand and would...I dunno grow stale or something? I'm not big on God stuff. But it does make me think of how the universe is expanding...


That very well could be true. When Christ went back to his home of Nazareth, it does say that he could not perform very many miracle due to the lack of belief in the town. Maybe worshiping is the path that lets it happen at a faster pace. At any rate excellent point.



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