Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

... sorry thats not at you, I just thought of something funny. Hell is what you put yourself through. It doesn`t matter if you think you "got away" with something, cause you judge yourself based on your definitions of right and wrong. Sure, there are those who lie, even to themselves to justify their actions. But deep inside, you WILL punish yourself, there`s no escaping it. You will NOT be able to be happy if you try to live in a way you know to be wrong. Things you choose to do will haunt you for years and years to come... Perhaps there is a different hell. But this one is bad enough! Another thing I`ve heard that may answer your question is that there is a secret, and that secret is that we all get to go to heaven. Perhaps that lends creed to my own hell on earth theory. Hell could be what we go thru when we do not live according to the intended plan of our creator, and Heaven is where we go after being judged. Does this mean rapists and killers will be rewarded just the same as muhatma ghandi? Perhaps not. The bible (unreliable as it may be) mentions that you will be rewarded according to your judgement. So maybe a rapist would get to go to heaven, while ghandi would have a higher status of some sort and may even be given command over a section or catergory of earth or maybe a whole other planet of humans. Thanks for starting this discussion. I fully enjoyed taking part in it. And I don`t believe asking such questions is blasphemous at all, it`s a good thing to ask questions. Its when we arrive at an answer that we may make a crucial error... You should begin another thread asking, "how would things be different in the world, and in your mind, if the bible said that everybody goes to heaven, just a different styou fare ddgement


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by brilab45

God created all things good and evil. All will go back to source. Even me (jerk) and the jerks who repond here. So it is said. See ya in the next life.

Fine, but when we get there, don't expect me to share my poisoned Fruit Loops or my wire-tapped toilet seat because they're mine.

Ahh... I love ats mobile. Its really convenient, but I guess I need to upgrade my env3. It bogs up or has a lag when the post gets too long. As I was saying. You should make a thread asking "what would be different if the bible said that everybody goes to heaven, with a different status based on how you fared during judgement, and that hell is what you go thru on earth when you live a life out of balance with the creators plan?" Furthermore, that Hell is self imposed in a way, since "god" lives in us all so we judge ourselves more harshly than anyone else could. Maybe the bible used to say something like that...


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Evil comes from free will. If we have the ability to act in ways God does not approve, God can still be the source of good, because evil comes from our own hearts. Not that hard to understand. God creating things which can ignore his preferences means He created the potential for evil, not evil itself. If God is good then evil must come out of our own will. Therefore if we have the freedom to disobey God, we have the ability to be evil.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by 547000]

i don't think going to hell has anything to do with believing in Jesus.

I studied Christianity for a long time and its all a bunch of bull.

Its a form of control.

May Jesus damn me to hell, but if I was a good person and saved lives, and went to hell? well than is God something we should worship?

NO

reply to post by ignorant_ape


"Amen" buddy to your post! It is so obvious, and ape figured it out! (No disrespect intended.)

Seriously, the religionist folk face a ridiculous contradiction every day of their lives with this business. God loves us! But he will send you to hell if you do/don't, etc....

But they're stuck in a very powerful system. The cage they wear on their heads was forged a long time ago, and , and it seems that few can ever get it off.

Sadly, there are many who literally suffer from mental issues because of it. They worry about hell, they worry about their loved ones not measuring up, they wonder where they will go when they die, they look in the mirror, and know they can never quite measure-up...

It's sick. And yet, the simple, oh-so-simple Truth can set them free. And you shared this truth with them, in few words. But how few will take the opportunity to go free? My guess, almost none. Very sad.

JR

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?

Hell as it has been described by Alighieri and Milton are not accurate as far as the scripture. If you look at the word "hell" from its original translation ("sheol"), the word literally means "grave" in hebrew. So for starters, all of us are going to hell. Even the boss himself didn't get out of here alive.

If you own a pet, and the pet is so destructive, and destroys your house, and attacks your friends, what are you going to do? You got the pet. You gave the pet a chance. Then the pet bites your hand and breaks your rules. The pet can't be trained and seems to enjoy destroying everything in sight. What are you going to do? You're going to put the pet down. You KNEW that it was possible that you would have to destroy the pet, but you weren't entirely sure.

There are 3 resurrections described in the bible. The third resurrection, called the lake of fire, is probably what most people think "hell" is about. But it isn't. It is a final end, it is when the soul dies.



[edit on 5-7-2010 by MKULTRA]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by adjensen

 

Uncleanliness and ritual purification is very important in the relationship between humanity and HaShem.

I take it you don't believe in ablution or baptism then?

Yes, I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin, as a sacrament of the Church. I don't think you need to be baptized over and over though.

Dietary purity and ritual purity are practically universal among all major faiths: Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, and some sects of Christianity.

Yes, but they're not relevant to our relationship with God.

Matthew 15:11, Jesus says:

"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'"

and further clarifies in verses 16-20:

"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

Consider also the controversy around circumcision in Acts. The early Church struggled with the notion of whether they were still Jewish and still tied to the requirements of that faith, and, more importantly, did new Christians from among the Gentiles need to follow those old requirements?

Also what is your opinion of the whole text in Matthew 5: 17-20

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven

My belief is that what Jesus is saying here is that he has come to fulfill God's promise in the covenant, to restore the relationship between the people and God that had been corrupted and bottled up by the Jewish religious hierarchy and dogma. But he isn't introducing something new, the previous rules of God still prevail, hence the admonition that he has not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it.

The question then becomes "what is the law", and, for my faith, the law is the ten commandments, which Jesus distills into the two great commandments. Follow them, and you are following him. The passage in Matthew that I cited tells me that, at least from Jesus' perspective, the law did not include dietary restrictions, which then interpolation allows for the excising of pretty much all of Deuteronomy and the other non-commandment laws of the Jewish people.

Consider that the ten/two commandments are God's law, all of the rest of it is man's law, added to canon through observation, tradition or supposition. There is nothing wrong with man's law, it's obviously very beneficial to creating a stable society. But do we expect God to be bound by laws that we make up?

To move along this topic:

“Hell” in semetic genuine metaphysics, not these distorted superficial religions of today, is actually a corruption of paradise.

In Arabic the word for hell is Jahannum, which is derived from the word for paradise which is Jinnah. There is the same word for hell derived from the Hebrew Gehannum

Hell is a corruption of paradise

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by adjensen
A characteristic of scripture is that much of it can be interpreted in different manners, but logic dictates that, if our interpretation of a particular passage results in a significantly different view of God than everything else, that interpretation is probably wrong.

perhaps. i don't judge on those criterion. if GOD teaches me, then it doesn't matter if it is the only version of itself in the world, i trust it as true. i trust GOD.

Thank you for your response, I won't reply to it all (though I did read it!) but I just wanted to reiterate this point. Trust in God, but verify in scripture. None of us have a direct, clear as a bell, connection to him, and things that come to us in meditation, prayer or thought may be from him, they may be from us, they may be from something else.

If you have an insight, but it is contrary to Christian belief, it is probably not a Christian insight. If you're not a Christian, of course, ignore that and apply it to the theology and basis of your own religion, with the same expectation.

I am certain that many of the ills committed "in God's name" were done under the aegis that "I got this straight from God." No one, apparently, thought to apply behaviour like the Spanish Inquisition or burning "witches" to the test of what God said he expects us to act like.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by adjensen]

I have always found this topic so intriguing.
I was raised catholic and since I was very young I asked my self the same question.
Now a day's, I live by balance and the Tao Te Ching.
One thing I realized while learning to live in balance was the difference of judgment.
My argument has always been, Sure you have freewill. And we have the freedom to become evil or good, by what...Actions (apparently thoughts as well.) But how come let our souls suffer for the rest of eternity?
I mean, if you had a child who was a pest and always caused trouble, would you lock him in the basement living off not even an apple and a glass of water a day?
I believe we are all doomed to judgment, but it is while you spend your time here on earth.
What goes around comes around.

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I can honestly say that Christians are the BIGGEST form of the scum bags and hypocrites, and that’s why the world looks down at them.

I'm hoping that you missed the word "some" before Christians in that sentence. If so, I would tend to agree with you, much of our established religion has come to resemble the tangled mire of Judaism that Christ came to fix up.

But there is still a lot of good there. My church (United Methodist,) through UMCOR, is often one of the first groups on the site of a natural disaster. They aren't there to preach, they're there to help, and they stick around a lot longer than some more visible secular efforts.

Sadly, it's the "scumbags" that draw the attention and ire of most people, and I'm sorry that you've come to equate religion with hypocrisy. But I guess that's one thing that you have in common with Christ when he was here!

My personal opinion about religion is to love life, love/forgive others, and to raise children to love others. No one is perfect or can live life w/o sinning. God knows this, and wants us to except it. No matter if a Christian or not, we will sin to the day we die. Get over it, b/c according to the Bible, God already has.

No, God didn't "get over it." He accepts our faults, and has given us the means to reconcile ourselves to him. But he doesn't just sweep things under the rug and say "what you did on Earth doesn't make a bit of difference, because I know you just couldn't help yourself." If you choose to reject what he offers, all of that is on you.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst

There is no hell, god does not judge, and the Christian interpetation of the bible if far from the truth.

And this belief of yours, it's based on what?

.... Experience. Seeing the universe for myself, not taking someone else's word for it, or studying it from some book.


You know what they say, Those who Can, Do. .... and those who can't, .... Teach.

Originally posted by ignorant_ape

Originally posted by adjensen
God has unconditional love for all of us. Unconditional means that there is nothing that you can do to make him love you more, nothing you can do to make him love you less. He wants you to love him, too, but he's not going to force you to do so, that's the free will bit.

that is not " unconditional " by any accepted definition

` worship me or go to hell ` is not unconditional love - it is blackmail

also - please look up " coersion " , in summary

god : love me
ignorant ape - why ?
god - if you dont you go to hell

i dont want that kind of love

I'm not sure that you understand what is being said here.

God has unconditional love FOR you. That has nothing to do with hell.

God would probably like, but doesn't expect, unconditional love FROM you.

God doesn't send you to hell. You choose to go there by opting to live life the way you like, irrespective of what the law says. God grants you the freedom to do that, it's totally your choice. He gets no joy from seeing you ignore him, particularly because he knows the consequences of it.

As I noted earlier, love and punishment are two separate things, even for us. Does God's unconditional love allow for the eventual forgiveness of your rejection of him? There are faiths that believe that to be so (I read a book a couple of years ago called "If God Is Love" that did a good job of discussing it) but there is no promise that it works that way.

Originally posted by adjensen

That is what Christian theology states. I didn't make it up, neither do I claim the authority to decree it. If you believe that Christian theology says that Christ is not necessary for salvation, you're pretty far off the mark.

Once again I did not state that anywhere.

and if you do not accept his gift, you will not receive the saving covenant of God.

No problem with that but you seem to be skirting the issue. YOU can believe that, but you have no right or authority to apply that to anyone who does not believe your particular version of religion. Tell me why is it that you seem to be unable to understand that?

I am well aware of the common history of the Abrahamic religions. In my opinion, Islam is not relevant to Christianity, as Abraham's covenant went through Isaac, not through Ishmael. Judaism is relevant, but I don't believe that the Christian faith can be adequately defending using Jewish theology, because the nature of God's relationship to people is significantly different in the two religions.

Once again you skirt the issue. Judaism IS relevant because it is the foundation up which Christianity was built.

Islam is relevant, or its bibliography, because it also references the foundations upon which your religion is built.

In both cases, though, the lack of belief in Christ's divinity makes them pointless for defending the core tenets of Christianity, exactly as I wrote.

Wrong. Before you can defend the core of Christianity you have to establish the validity of the religion. You cannot do that without reference to it's foundations and supporting literature.

You also cannot defend the tenets of your faith without access to not only the current literature, but also to additional writings that as you are well aware, or should be, were omitted on purpose by numerous leaders of the Church leading up to and including the Council of Nicea and even subsequent to that because they did not suit their purpose and served to lessen the control of the Church upon it's followers.

It is necessary to have read and understood all of these documents before you can defend your faith and have the presumption to apply your beliefs to others who are not of your persuasion.

Why is it that you are not capable of understanding that YOUR religion applies only to YOU and not to those who do not follow your religion.

There are over 2600 religions in the world of which yours is but one, albeit a large one. You have absolutely no right to impose your beliefs on any of those other religions. You or any other religion as I said before does not have the right to say that it is the only correct religion and thus you have no jurisdiction to apply to me the belief that I will go to hell if I don't believe if your religion and your version of salvation.

The sooner that Christianity, Islam and Judaism get that simple fact through their heads the better place the world will be.

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst

There is no hell, god does not judge, and the Christian interpetation of the bible if far from the truth.

And this belief of yours, it's based on what?

.... Experience. Seeing the universe for myself, not taking someone else's word for it, or studying it from some book.


You know what they say, Those who Can, Do. .... and those who can't, .... Teach.

So it's not based on anything. It's something that you "figured out". You state categorically that there is no hell, that God does not judge, and that the Christian interpretation of the Bible is wrong, claiming "experience" has shown you this. I'm curious to hear what your experience was that granted you these insights. For 2,000 years, scholars and theologians have discussed, debated and meditated on these three things as absolute truths, and yet you summarily dismiss them all, so it must be pretty amazing.

Sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that God (who you apparently believe in) would allow his followers to mistakenly follow the wrong path for thousands of years, choosing to wait until now to fill you in on the secret. If he can show you the true way, he could have corrected the faulty Christian interpretation, obliterated all references to hell and said "do whatever you please, folks, I'm sure not going to judge you" a long time ago.

reply to post by adjensen

God doesn't send you to hell. You choose to go there by opting to live life the way you like, irrespective of what the law says. God grants you the freedom to do that, it's totally your choice. He gets no joy from seeing you ignore him, particularly because he knows the consequences of it.

What a most extraordinary presumption!

Does the Buddhist choose to go to hell because he does not believe in your God? Can he even make that choice? Does he even know about your God?

Does this person, who lives a life of care for others and concern for his/her environment and for all creatures great and small, by the reckoning of your religion go to hell because he knows not about your God and his dastardly options? I think not.

The arrogance of your religion is astounding!

Once again I say:

You cannot apply your belief system to others who do not share your belief. You do not have that right.

Understand that and we may have peace in the world.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

Because "god" as envisioned and created in the minds of ancient man who's books people now blindly follow does not exist. One cannot state with certainty beyond doubt that a creator does not exist.

One can say the "God" in religions created and defined by man is a nonsensical, illogically and down right evil being. It is a being of murder death and torture.

This evil being could not possibly have created someone such as me. I am by far more loving and caring of my fellow human than the mythical creature that so many in the world follow today. If I have a creator it would be far more compasionate, understanding and loving to its own creations than I am.

This being is a flawed failure if indeed it created us flawed and sinful humans only to send those who through no fault of their own go to hell.

This god created souls implicitly to send them to hell. If I were going to define such a creature it would indeed be Satan.

It simply cannot exist.

I think we're given free will to make our own decision. Sorta' like a test. To see if we're worthy of goin' to heaven. If not, BAM, you go straight to hell for choosing to be bad.

Cause, TBH, if we didn't have free will and we were all destined to go to heaven from the beginning, regardless of the life we lived... what's the point of excisting on earth first? Why not go straight to heaven and "cut out the middle man" so to speak.

I believe it to be a test to see if we are worthy for a place like heaven. A perfect place to live for eternity. As oppose to the firey depths of hell to spend an eternity of pain. A little horrorific, I know, but it's the way it apparently is.

But, hey, what do I know. I 'm not even religious, but just a theory I'd believe, If I was religious... just sayin'

reply to post by adjensen


It is not " something I figured out" , it is where I've been. These bodies are simply vessel's, and we do not have to wait untill death to leave them.

These things you read have only been accepted as absoloute truths because well, ... you've accepted them. You can't really learn how to ride a bike by reading about it.

... god this, god that, .... look, god does not take much stock in what we are doing here, no matter which path we choose, we all share the same destination. All roads lead to rome.

You may ask for clarification, but why attempt to explain something you can barely understand, and will never accept, your mind is made up, and your destiny set. How can I describe the Ocean to one who has never stepped outside.

I was a Christian for many years, and the bible does contain truth's. Yet christians completely misinterpet them, and are in essence, seeing them in 3d, .... when they are multidimensional concepts.

The author's were simply trying to interpet the truth as best they could, to the people of the time using concepts they could grasp.

The truth never changes, only our ability to understand it.

These scholars and theologians should make better use of their time, and explore where the truth is going, .... not where it has been.

[edit on 5-7-2010 by IntastellaBurst]