Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by adjensen
Um... Christian theology? Do you believe that all religions share the same theology?

No and thus that was the point. Under which authority do you presume to state that those who are not Christians will not go to heaven? This is your belief and not a statement of fact.

That is what Christian theology states. I didn't make it up, neither do I claim the authority to decree it. If you believe that Christian theology says that Christ is not necessary for salvation, you're pretty far off the mark.

Understand that I am not arguing the merits, virtues or validities of Christianity versus anything else, I am simply stating that the core of the Christian faith says that salvation comes through Christ, and if you do not accept his gift, you will not receive the saving covenant of God.

You can say that you don't agree, or don't believe, but don't imply that just because you don't like something, it invalidates 2,000 years of religious thought, discussion and tradition.

Did I say that I did not like something? I asked you to provide the authority for your statement, which of course you cannot, because it is a belief and not an authority.

Yes, it is a belief. Religious discussions are usually about beliefs.

Or expect a Christian to defend their faith by utilizing Buddhist, Muslim or Jewish theology.

It is quite apparent then that you have absolutely no concept of the roots of Christianity and Islam both of which are founded upon Judaism which itself goes back further than 2000 years. It is actually impossible for you to defend Christianity WITHOUT using the theology of Judaism since it is the foundation upon which your religion is built. I would agree that you could not use Buddhism, but Islam - yes since if you read the Noble Qu'ran you will find many references to the common roots of your religions. I assume that you have read the Torah and the Qu'ran?

I am well aware of the common history of the Abrahamic religions. In my opinion, Islam is not relevant to Christianity, as Abraham's covenant went through Isaac, not through Ishmael. Judaism is relevant, but I don't believe that the Christian faith can be adequately defending using Jewish theology, because the nature of God's relationship to people is significantly different in the two religions. In both cases, though, the lack of belief in Christ's divinity makes them pointless for defending the core tenets of Christianity, exactly as I wrote.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

No, There are hellish NDE. But not of the religious nature. Whenever a NDE actually went to hell in an NDE, and ask for forgiveness they were forgiven. In the christin religion there are no second chanes. This is what I think is dumb.

Again, consider purgatory, which is the belief that, upon death some (few) are immediately granted entry to heaven, some (few) are immediately sent to hell, and the rest are "somewhere" to work out their issues, accept or reject God, and then move on. There is no scriptural support for this (except in the Catholic Bible, and even then it's a pretty iffy reference in 2 Maccabees) but it certainly plays along with our belief in the justice of "second chances".

See www.newadvent.org...

You could also look into the Quakers -- if memory serves, they're of the belief that, because God is love, he saves everyone in the end.

reply to post by Maddogkull


Yeah, I think you're right, but the theologians always have their reasons.

Speaking in theological terms, people are often defined as "mind", and "will"...

What EXACTLY changes at that moment of death? Oh, I know, it's a "rule" that once you die, it's all set in stone, but why would that be, apart from it just being a rule?

I can imagine myself dying. I believe this, or that. I've lived this way, or that, done some bad things, some good. But then there is that "moment"...

Really, I can almost see that nothing really changes! Let's say I had lived a "bad" life, screwed virgins, stolen lots of money, raped, pillaged, burned, etc. At the moment of death, why is it all locked in stone? Sure, I can't live again to rectify it all, but I can certainly "see" the error of my ways, and even see myself being truly "sorry"...

Let's say I'm standing before the fabled "Judgement Seat"! God Almighty has just reminded me of what a piece of poopoo I was...Hey, He's GOD! I'm very convinced! Dude, you're right! I have been a serious dick!

Then what? You just get flushed down the toilet?

It is really all a huge stretch for me. Doesn't make sense.

But alas, it isn't supposed to make sense! It's just the way it is...

JR

reply to post by JR MacBeth


The most obvious argument is that, when you're standing before God, you're sorry you did stuff because you know that you're in for it, not because you're really sorry. Sort of like when you were a kid and apologized for doing something wrong, not because you felt bad, but because you got caught.

While the story of the thief crucified with Jesus shows that salvation comes from simple faith, and it's never too late, I suspect that it's better to lead a good life, following Christ's example, than to count on a deathbed conversion.

reply to post by adjensen


I'm AOK with some kind of purgatory. At least there is a remedial aspect to it. But hell? There isn't, and that's troubling to say the least, since all of our human experiences suggest otherwise.

Here is our experience...Is hope ever really dead? No, not here! But we're asked to believe that once that magical moment of death occurs, it all changes, and as the boom lowers, I guess there must be something very convincing that says there is no point in hope anymore. Maybe the famous sign over the doorway, "Abandon all hope ye who enter here!...

What a bleak doctrine! No wonder the damned souls are said to curse "god" in Eternity...Makes sense to me!

JR

reply to post by adjensen


See that is your opinion. In NDE most people have a life review, and actually relive the emotions of other people they hurt. So if they are truly sorry, and not for the fact they are going to hell, but truly sorry. Do they go to hell? Christianity seems to think so. Why do you think it is becoming more extinct day by day in this world?

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

See that is your opinion. In NDE most people have a life review, and actually relive the emotions of other people they hurt. So if they are truly sorry, and not for the fact they are going to hell, but truly sorry. Do they go to hell? Christianity seems to think so. Why do you think it is becoming more extinct day by day in this world?

What's becoming extinct? Christianity? Well, I don't think it's in any danger of dying out, but I'd put a fair amount of the decrease down to people thinking that the way they live their lives is their business and that it doesn't matter if they have faith or not. Christianity is all about decrying selfishness and arrogance, and we live in a society that fairly well celebrates both, so it's not surprising that people would rather not be told that they should care about the poor, or treat people you don't like as well as you'd like to be treated.

In your perspective, though, what's the point of heaven? What's the point of this life review? We're free to treat people like crap here on Earth and after we die, we're shown what crumbs we were, we feel bad, and then, poof, we're sent to heaven?

One thing that I thought of after reading all those NDE reports after my wife died is that they all have one thing in common. They were experienced by people who did not die. It's not unreasonable to assume that, since God knew that they would be going back to life, their experience is not the same thing as one who truly died, for good.

reply to post by adjensen


WOW more ignorance. These people died, some for 5 minutes some for 20 minutes. It has been proven they have been dead. When their brain waves stop your brain goes flat in around 6 seconds if I am not mistaken. No brain waves, no gag reflex. Dead. Ever heard of reincarnation? That could give killers another alternative that a loving god would do. Instead of send them to a place of pain for ETERNITY. I am more sincere then the god of Christianity. I would not even banish Hitler to hell for ETERNITY. I would for a vast amount of time. But never eternity. Or I would give him the chance to reincarnate. Now how could I a slave of god, be more humble then the creator of the universe?

reply to post by adjensen


And what is your view? If we do good in this world, and help people out, and just becasue we do not believe in a guy from 2000 years ago, we burn for eternity? .....

bible-truths.com...

One of the few places on the net where the bible is expounded as it was meant to be and translated properly. If you believe in an eternal hell, you must do so without proper translation or spiritual discernment. All the fundamentalist "what about Hitler?" questions won't cover the obvious insanity of the "free will choice to burn or suffer" doctrine...the bible states the opposite of free will throughout and proclaims God as the only sovereign.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

WOW more ignorance. These people died, some for 5 minutes some for 20 minutes. It has been proven they have been dead. When their brain waves stop your brain goes flat in around 6 seconds if I am not mistaken. No brain waves, no gag reflex. Dead.

Unless you believe in zombies, they're not dead when they come back. They experienced death, some sort of existence after we are no longer in our bodies, but they didn't die, not for good. My wife died, and in spite of the efforts of the EMTs, she was gone for good. Had they resuscitated her, she might have come back, telling of an NDE. Two very different paths, trust me.

But God knows who will come back, and who will not. All I'm saying is that it's not beyond reason that those who come back do so after having a different experience than those who died and will not be returning. Again, I question what the point of giving someone a life review is, if they're getting into heaven anyway. But I can see a really good reason for doing it, if you know that the person is going to be coming back to Earth, because it may help them turn their life around, or they'll tell others, and those people will act differently.

This is simple, either he /it doesn't exist , doesn't have sufficient power to correct evil, or is evil itself.


According to the Bible he himself is the master of evil and sin. He banishes Satan, whom he created, sends him to Earth, then lets him poison our souls with desire and evil (he made us weak to sin ) , then in god's infinite wisdom , blames US for it all.

(analogy)
That is like a human walking down a road with a rabid dog, releasing it knowing it will do terrible harm , then the dog kills an infant while it;s parents are walking down the street. Now instead of blaming the dog or its owner , according to gods rules in the bible , the Parents would be blamed and sent to hell (or jail)!!!

The bible is full of logical fallacies such as this. Just take it with a grain of salt. It most likely isn't even remotely true in any sense of the word anyways. Hell weas humans can even think of ways to improve the world and make it better. If god was so intelligent why can we improve upon his creation?

Maybe we could just clean up hell a bit, put up a few pictures, get some air freshners, maybe work out some difference, you know there enough of those Catholic priest down there,

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

And what is your view? If we do good in this world, and help people out, and just becasue we do not believe in a guy from 2000 years ago, we burn for eternity? .....

That is what Christian faith is, yes. We cannot achieve salvation on our own, because we're not perfect. What does it mean to "do good"? Giving money to the poor? How do you know how much to give them? If you give all of your money to the poor, did you do it right, or did you miss giving it to someone more deserving?

You could go mad, trying to sort all of that out, and, in the end, God says that we're going to inevitably fall short anyway. Accepting Christ in your life, accepting his sacrifice and following his example the best way that you can is the path that God says will bring you to him. And, to be honest, even if that's not the only way, I sure don't see a down side to it, unless I was simply so arrogant that I refused to believe that I can't do it on my own.

reply to post by adjensen


IT IS NOT ABOUT GIVING THE RIGHT AMOUNT. IT IS ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE. Making there life better then it is. Giving them positive hope. I stand by what I said. you just admitted that if a good person does not belive in jesus he goes to hell. THAT GOD IS A GOD WITHOUT FORGIVNESS. Hence me being more humble then my creator, as I would never banish someone for eternity becasue they did not get life right on earth for the small amount of time they were on it.

reply to post by adjensen


You say it like it is fact. Christianity is fath based. You do not know it is real. So it is better to put maybes and if's in your posts.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

IT IS NOT ABOUT GIVING THE RIGHT AMOUNT. IT IS ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE. Making there life better then it is. Giving them positive hope. I stand by what I said. you just admitted that if a good person does not belive in jesus he goes to hell. THAT GOD IS A GOD WITHOUT FORGIVNESS. Hence me being more humble then my creator, as I would never banish someone for eternity becasue they did not get life right on earth for the small amount of time they were on it.

Two things.

First, Christ, and a belief in Christ, is the tool by which we are reconciled to God. That is what Christian theology teaches. If you don't want to accept his salvation, you are welcome to try to gain it on your own, but our faith says that you will not be able to do that.

Secondly, you throw out some vague notion of doing good, without any notion of how you might quantify that. Is living our lives for ourselves, and throwing money to a beggar once in a while good enough? That's helping people, isn't it? Your friend who was in the Peace Corps, he sacrificed a lot of things to help out others, can you expect to be judged similarly when you didn't do that? How does any of that stack up to one who truly gives their entire life to others, like Mother Theresa?

Get this through your head... in the Christian faith, you CANNOT be saved by your own works. Period. If you don't accept that, then you are not a Christian, and this discussion is pointless. Whether you think that's fair or unfair doesn't make any difference. I have already told you that there are some Christian sects that have beliefs that allow for second chances, but they all still require that you accept Christ's sacrifice for you, because that's the avenue you must follow to be reconciled to God.

If you believe in God, and believe in heaven, but don't want to accept Christ, as I said, you're welcome to find your own way, but by the Christian faith, you face an impossible task, and by the Jewish faith, unless you are Jewish by birth, you're also out of luck. I don't know what the particulars of Islamic salvation are, sorry, maybe you'll have more luck there.

Yes lets agree to dissagree

Yes lets agree to dissagree

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Yes lets agree to dissagree

Agreed! And, for the record, although as I said, it's not a part of my faith tradition, I really do hope that the purgatorial view is the right one. No matter what my own faith journey has been and will be, I hope that everyone will be given the opportunity to know the peace and comfort that my faith has brought me.