Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by adjensen
Well, that's my point, exactly. You're judging God, based on your human perspective. People throw out that "God must not exist (or be evil) because bad things happen" chestnut constantly, believing that it proves something, when, in fact, it proves nothing beyond your own belief that life isn't fair. If we can't see God's view of things, we can't infer what motivates him to act or not act.

But God is happy for us to judge Him when we are praiseworthy. (God is most high, He is the Creator and King of the Universe.)

That isn't a judgement, it's an observation.

Again, free will. It is likely that most religions have some degree of truth in them, and bring people closer to God, though I believe that Christianity is the only complete religion that reconciles us to him. But God isn't going to force you to be a Christian, and he's not going to blot out other faiths, because that would be the same thing. He's simply made sure that the Word is out there, and given you the freedom to accept it or reject it. If you are deceived by something, you've done it of your own accord.

How exactly is the "word out there"? We have thousands of belief systems and hundreds of religions, most of which claim that "their word" is the truth and from God. Considering the size of the Earth and diverse systems of belief, the probability of somebody NOT being exposed to Christianity is much higher than those who have.

Again, without a comprehensive understanding, we don't know how God reconciles himself with someone who hasn't been exposed to Christianity, but most theologians believe that he can. As for what to believe, out of all the options out there, that's up to you. Explore and decide for yourself. You want to believe in Norse mythology, knock yourself out.

The assumption of free will isn't unreasonable. I can, at this moment, close the browser and end this conversation, or I can continue it. My choice. In fact, within the context of faith, free well isn't even an assumption, it's a given.

According to your standards from before, yes it is unreasonable. You claim to understand what Free Will is and how it functions. Are you able to get down on your knees and pray to an idol? Can you turn grass into water? Can you fly unaided by machinery? Is there a restriction on your Free Will?

Where do you come up with the notion that just because you want to do something, you can? Do you believe that our beliefs shape reality? Free will has nothing to do with enabling, it has to do with God taking a "hands off" approach to our decision making.

Can you visualise Utopia without God? Are you able to visualise a world where an omni-X deity does not exist?

Nope, I can't.

How do you know that is the next phase of our existence? Why does God require different realms of existence? If it is to separate creations from other creations, then what is the point in going to another phase?

I don't know that. I have no idea whether God requires different realms of existence, and obviously wouldn't know why. Some things just don't have answers (for now,) sorry.

Not at all -- the arrogance is not in questioning reality, that's very admirable. I got where I am in my faith by questioning reality. No, the arrogance is in assuming that a human being knows enough to be able to judge God's motivations, and declare him non-existant or evil, based on those assumptions.

The ugly side of Free Will hey? Not wanting robots, but being unhappy when you don't get praiseworthy robots...

It's regrettable, of course, for those who make bad choices, but you are empowered to think for yourself and make your own decisions. I don't see the alternative as being a better option.

What is the method to determine unequivocally that what you believe about God is truth?

My own perception, based on my faith and bolstered by my religion and theology. Saying that you refuse to explore faith because you're afraid that you'll pick the wrong one is a rather immature argument.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by adjensen

 

My answers in that reply were parodying what the standard reply is when questions such as those are asked. I was attempting to demonstrate how illogical those answers are when they are considered using logic and reason. Maybe you should read over that reply again.

[edit on 16/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Well, in that case, you get a big "fail" for your parody, which is neither funny, nor makes a point. I've never seen a Christian (or anyone) who says that free will is the cause of evil, and if I did, I would suspect an attempt to abrogate responsibility for their decisions.

I havn't read but a few of the first posts to the OP.
Although I can answer these questions very simply for myself.
With those answers making perfect sense to me.
This may not be the case for you.
So for this moment I will simply say, that if you believe in God.
Then you know what he is capable of.
There is a grand difference between questions about God and questioning
God. Questions about God suggest you havn't yet made up your mind.
Questioning God I would say is complete fallacy. It comes from those who believe in God, but question his righteousness.
If you can't find these simple answers for yourself. You may not be meant to have them. I have my own answers to every question an atheist or anyone else can ask. I make perfect sense of every answer.
That's just me.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by FiatLux
So, if i`ve learned to forgive myself for the wrongs I`ve done, I should not forgive anyone else who has done wrong? And as for loving all others, seems pretty selfish of me if I keep my love to myself like that.

I'm not sure I understand what it is you are saying here. Could you please rephrase?

To put it in simple terms. I don`t hold back any love at all, why should I? I believe in humanity as a whole, so I love all of humanity as a whole. It`s simple.

One must remember, we are all from the same maker, so to not like someone else or to even hate them, is to hate ones self. To love that part of us that is the maker within, is the same as loving all. Even though there are those who do bad or evil, they are still a part of the whole, and are doing as free will allows them to do.

By the way, everything I state is my opinion, just as you have your own opinion of all things. That is what makes free will work so well. We can think as we want. It`s just to bad so many hate others for what they think. It`s like they aren`t allowed to have an opinion at all, be it right or wrong.

Originally posted by randyvs

I havn't read but a few of the first posts to the OP.
Although I can answer these questions very simply for myself.
With those answers making perfect sense to me.
This may not be the case for you.
So for this moment I will simply say, that if you believe in God.
Then you know what he is capable of.
There is a grand difference between questions about God and questioning
God. Questions about God suggest you havn't yet made up your mind.
Questioning God I would say is complete fallacy. It comes from those who believe in God, but question his righteousness.
If you can't find these simple answers for yourself. You may not be meant to have them. I have my own answers to every question an atheist or anyone else can ask. I make perfect sense of every answer.
That's just me.

I respect your opinion on the matter, but I feel thats a cop-out answer. To explore something is human nature, and shouldn't be looked down upon. I feel God wants us to question, and look into the meaning of life only so we can grow from it.
It's a legit question..... Why would God let someone come into existance knowing that person will make a decision that will put them in hell? Don't just live your life without questions.. How boring.. How pointless...

Originally posted by FiatLux

Originally posted by Astyanax
There is, of course, no God of the kind you insist upon, but if there was He would be evil.

I`ll ask you, just as you did me..................how about some evidence to prove all of that statement?

Most certainly.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I give you Exhibit A: human history. I have here a working model you may examine at your leisure. I advise you to wear gloves and wash your hands afterwards. Human history is not very nice. It is a history of endless suffering. A little of this suffering may in theory be blamed on the humans themselves--wars, genocides, serial killings, and so forth--but a great deal more must be put at the door of disease, famine and accident. For most humans on planet Earth, throughout history, life has been more or less miserable.

God is said to be omnipotent. Therefore he has the power to end this suffering. A human being in such a position would be regarded as callous and evil if he did not use his power to do so. Why should God not be held to the same standards?

I think the evidence of Exhibit A alone should be more than sufficient, ladies and gentlemen, but even so I give you Exhibit B. Exhibit B is Planet Earth itself. Not so toxic or unpleasant to the touch, despite about a million years of human habitation and pollution; yet nasty enough in its own way. Planet Earth features something called Life.

Earthlings are very proud of Life; they regard it as the highest development of Nature. Let me tell you something about this Life. Do you know how it survives and prospers? By devouring itself. Yes, imagine that--all life lives by eating pieces of other life, often killing or irreparably damaging the other life in the process. And the means by which Life gets its dinner and its babies is often horrific. Consider the design of a virus, a twist of DNA or RNA inside a protein jacket, beautifully evolved to cut its way through the membrane of a living cell, hijack the cell machinery and force that machinery to make more copies of the virus until the cell can hold no more and bursts, to spread contagion throughout the body. Consider those wasps that paralyze caterpillars and lay their eggs in them so that their offspring will have a secure supply of nice fresh food. Consider cancers--their immense variety and proliferation, from which no multicellular organism is safe. Are these the works of a good Creator? Why does life entail, inevitably, so much suffering?

Why does life entail death?

Could a God be good who created a World this monstrous?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, your Honour, the prosecution rests. It is time for the defence to present its evidence. Indeed, it is overdue.

Originally posted by adjensen
That isn't a judgement, it's an observation.

By using observation in that context I assume you mean fact? How do you know those observations are correct?

Again, without a comprehensive understanding, we don't know how God reconciles himself with someone who hasn't been exposed to Christianity, but most theologians believe that he can. As for what to believe, out of all the options out there, that's up to you. Explore and decide for yourself. You want to believe in Norse mythology, knock yourself out.

What makes your beliefs more truthful than "Norse mythology"?

Where do you come up with the notion that just because you want to do something, you can? Do you believe that our beliefs shape reality? Free will has nothing to do with enabling, it has to do with God taking a "hands off" approach to our decision making.

I thought Free Will meant we were allowed to make our own decisions? It seems we are restricted in our ability to make decisions, as I demonstrated above, and therefore this idea of Free Will is corrupted.

Dark Ghost: Can you visualise Utopia without God? Are you able to visualise a world where an omni-X deity does not exist?
adjensen: Nope, I can't.

This might be the greatest weakness of the Modern Theist. You cannot allow for the possibility that a Universe exists that is free from the Absolute power of a single entity that controls all other things.

I don't know that. I have no idea whether God requires different realms of existence, and obviously wouldn't know why. Some things just don't have answers (for now,) sorry.

Fair enough. At least you admit you do not know this.

It's regrettable, of course, for those who make bad choices, but you are empowered to think for yourself and make your own decisions. I don't see the alternative as being a better option.

Your comments remind me of that "23 minutes in Hell" video on YouTube. Apparently God takes the subject to Hell and after removing him starts to cry about how He doesn't want any of His creations to end up there. And tells the guy to spread His word that they must know that place is real.

If the alternative will prevent us from suffering for an Eternity, then yes it probably is the better option. If my limited human intelligence can easily reach that conclusion, then what conclusions could an omniscient entity reach?

My own perception, based on my faith and bolstered by my religion and theology. Saying that you refuse to explore faith because you're afraid that you'll pick the wrong one is a rather immature argument.

Or how about every time you do explore faith you arrive at the same Crossroad: believe and Fear an Omni-X God and do things that make Him happy and you will be rewarded. If not, don't expect peace, security, prosperity and happiness because you will not follow His word.

[edit on 17/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by adjensen
Well, in that case, you get a big "fail" for your parody, which is neither funny, nor makes a point. I've never seen a Christian (or anyone) who says that free will is the cause of evil, and if I did, I would suspect an attempt to abrogate responsibility for their decisions.

Might not have been funny, but it certainly DID make a point. You admitted that the answers were ridiculous and implausible, which is kind of what I was trying to demonstrate.

Care to explain what does cause evil? We keep hearing that it is our choice not to follow God's word that leads to our pain and suffering. How do we go against God's word? Could it be by utilising our Free Will?

Why should I take responsibility for incurring God's wrath when He is the one who gave me the potential (Free Will) to do evil?

[edit on 17/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

God is said to be omnipotent. Therefore he has the power to end this suffering. A human being in such a position would be regarded as callous and evil if he did not use his power to do so. Why should God not be held to the same standards?

reply to post by Astyanax


I would ask first, where do you think the standards you speak of come from.

Have a look

[edit on 17-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs

I had a look. Another pathetic, fallacy-ridden argument by C.S. Lewis, that useless old failed apologist. You think we get our moral standards from some god?

Our moral standards and behaviour are derived from our evolutionary heritage, just like everything else about us. Altruism, loyalty, reciprocity and group cooperation are common to all hominids and to social primates in general. Most social animals, not just primates, display some of these characteristics. Altruism is widespread among kin groups in many higher animals.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
What makes your beliefs more truthful than "Norse mythology"?

Didn't say that they were. For me, they are. For you, it's up to you. I'm merely expressing tolerance for people who explore or hold beliefs other than mine. I believe that my view is correct, but, aside from correcting misconceptions that you have about my view, I have no interest in whether you come to my beliefs or not.

Where do you come up with the notion that just because you want to do something, you can? Do you believe that our beliefs shape reality? Free will has nothing to do with enabling, it has to do with God taking a "hands off" approach to our decision making.

I thought Free Will meant we were allowed to make our own decisions? It seems we are restricted in our ability to make decisions, as I demonstrated above, and therefore this idea of Free Will is corrupted.

Free will allows you to make a decision, nothing more. If I am debating whether I want to fly unaided, free will allows me to say "yes, I think I shall!" At that point, free will is out of the picture, and I'm left with figuring out how I going to fly on my own by myself.

Claiming that the ability to make decisions forces those decisions to be feasible is nonsensical, whether free will is part of it or not.

Dark Ghost: Can you visualise Utopia without God? Are you able to visualise a world where an omni-X deity does not exist?
adjensen: Nope, I can't.

This might be the greatest weakness of the Modern Theist. You cannot allow for the possibility that a Universe exists that is free from the Absolute power of a single entity that controls all other things.

How is this a weakness? Because it makes me closed minded? Okay, I'll own that -- one of the reasons that I fail to sympathize with the atheist position is due to my theistic perspective. However, "a single entity that controls all other things" is a significant misstatement. I certainly don't hold that view, and I'm not aware of any person of faith, Christian or otherwise, who does.

I can't figure out whether you think free will is a good idea or not. One moment, you're arguing that we don't have it, because you can't fly unaided, then the next you're arguing that we do, because there's no God who "controls all other things."

It's regrettable, of course, for those who make bad choices, but you are empowered to think for yourself and make your own decisions. I don't see the alternative as being a better option.

Your comments remind me of that "23 minutes in Hell" video on YouTube. Apparently God takes the subject to Hell and after removing him starts to cry about how He doesn't want any of His creations to end up there. And tells the guy to spread His word that they must know that place is real.

Do yourself a favour and skip the book. I read it, and it's so poorly written that I nearly wrote him a letter to ask if he'd even had an editor for the thing. Ugh. There's a lot of beautiful and insightful Christian literature out there, "23 Minutes in Hell" isn't one of them.

My own perception, based on my faith and bolstered by my religion and theology. Saying that you refuse to explore faith because you're afraid that you'll pick the wrong one is a rather immature argument.

Or how about every time you do explore faith you arrive at the same Crossroad: believe and Fear an Omni-X God and do things that make Him happy and you will be rewarded. If not, don't expect peace, security, prosperity and happiness because you will not follow His word.

Because my faith isn't based in fear. Period. If you can't understand that, that's fine, but it's something that significantly limits your view of my faith.

If I had a single piece of advice for you, it would be to stop applying the things that you find annoying about some people of faith to all people of faith. The "23 Minutes in Hell" guy obviously has fear as a big part of who he is. He likely comes out of an evangelical or, more likely, fundamentalist background. I did, as well, but cast all of that stuff aside as I explored my faith.

reply to post by adjensen

Free will allows you to make a decision, nothing more.

Free will does not exist at all. People who believe so are simply naive narcissists who think they have any amount of true control over reality. You can't just brush aside the larger aspect of reality and the interconnectedness of cause and effect and call that dismissal 'free will'.

Because my faith isn't based in fear. Period. If you can't understand that, that's fine, but it's something that significantly limits your view of my faith.

Whether acknowledge or not, any belief in life after death is rooted to the fear of no life after death. It's a shame there are those whom with the wave of their hand dismiss it blindly. I understand it makes you feel better, but please be honest in your arguments.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Care to explain what does cause evil? We keep hearing that it is our choice not to follow God's word that leads to our pain and suffering. How do we go against God's word? Could it be by utilising our Free Will?

Sigh. You understand, very well, the cause of evil. It is our decisions and actions that cause evil. That's true in both worlds -- whether God exists or whether God doesn't exist, evil is the result of things that we do. The only way that you can blame God for evil is if he DOES exist, and we do NOT have free will.

Why should I take responsibility for incurring God's wrath when He is the one who gave me the potential (Free Will) to do evil?

Because he didn't just give you free will and say "good luck, see you on the other side!" He gave you rules and expectations that are in keeping with not doing evil. At their core, they are to love him, and to love everyone else. If you do those things, you will not do evil.

Unfortunately, we do not do those things, or we do them poorly, and so evil exists. But, just as we frown on people justifying their own bad actions by blaming them on something or someone else, God expects you to take responsibility for ignoring the rules and doing what you pleased.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by adjensen

 

Free will allows you to make a decision, nothing more.

Free will does not exist at all. People who believe so are simply naive narcissists who think they have any amount of true control over reality. You can't just brush aside the larger aspect of reality and the interconnectedness of cause and effect and call that dismissal 'free will'.

I've never seen evidence of anything that indicates predestination, and the things that I've read on the subject from a scientific perspective (such as experiments that indicate a possibility that our brains come to some decisions after we've already taken the action) are too esoteric, sketchy, and based on science that we really don't have a good handle on yet.

Naive narcissist that I am (along with 99.9% of the population, I would guess... that's a lot of self love,) in the absence of evidence, I'll continue to operate under the assumption that the more sensible premise is the correct one.

Because my faith isn't based in fear. Period. If you can't understand that, that's fine, but it's something that significantly limits your view of my faith.

Whether acknowledge or not, any belief in life after death is rooted to the fear of no life after death. It's a shame there are those whom with the wave of their hand dismiss it blindly. I understand it makes you feel better, but please be honest in your arguments.

You presume to know my faith, in its entirety. You do not, so please do not make judgements as to my honesty or motivations.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by adjensen]

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


to place the bad souls in a specific area where they can learn to be good souls and are kept away from those who are already on a path towards enlightnement.

It could be a way to also help those bad/lost souls/people become good once they have lived enough lives to realize their mistakes and take action to correct them and become a wiser and more knowledgable and better person...


Duality is everywhere in existence.....at least the one we know of.

Originally posted by adjensen
Sigh. You understand, very well, the cause of evil. It is our decisions and actions that cause evil. That's true in both worlds -- whether God exists or whether God doesn't exist, evil is the result of things that we do. The only way that you can blame God for evil is if he DOES exist, and we do NOT have free will.

You are failing to acknowledge the key difference of those two worlds: the existence of an omnipotent and omniscient being that can cease evil and suffering and even prevent it.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by adjensen
Sigh. You understand, very well, the cause of evil. It is our decisions and actions that cause evil. That's true in both worlds -- whether God exists or whether God doesn't exist, evil is the result of things that we do. The only way that you can blame God for evil is if he DOES exist, and we do NOT have free will.

You are failing to acknowledge the key difference of those two worlds: the existence of an omnipotent and omniscient being that can cease evil and suffering and even prevent it.

The answer is right there. You even included it in your quote. Here, let me pull it out, repost it and boldface it. Then maybe you'll get it.

The only way that you can blame God for evil is if he DOES exist, and we do NOT have free will.

If you want to argue that we lack free will, that we do evil because God forces us to, knock yourself out.

Your "omnipotent and omniscient" argument cannot prove the non-existence of God, because it allows in the same breath for an "evil" God, and it cannot prove the existence of an "evil" God, because that requires that you accept my earlier proof, that you can't judge something when you don't understand it.

Our moral standards and behaviour are derived from our evolutionary heritage, just like everything else about us. Altruism, loyalty, reciprocity and group cooperation are common to all hominids and to social primates in general. Most social animals, not just primates, display some of these characteristics. Altruism is widespread among kin groups in many higher animals.

reply to post by Astyanax


I don't understand why your reply needed a pathetic putdown. Anyway
uh, So for you our religious beliefs are derived from our evolutionary
heritage. Can you explain to me how we evolved with a belief in God?

reply to post by adjensen

I've never seen evidence of anything that indicates predestination

Predestination is a religious concept and certainly not one I described at all.

and the things that I've read on the subject from a scientific perspective (such as experiments that indicate a possibility that our brains come to some decisions after we've already taken the action) are too esoteric, sketchy, and based on science that we really don't have a good handle on yet.

What you mean is research in how the brain works. Again, something that is not related to the religious concept of predestination.

Naive narcissist that I am (along with 99.9% of the population, I would guess... that's a lot of self love,) in the absence of evidence, I'll continue to operate under the assumption that the more sensible premise is the correct one.

Absence of evidence for what?

You presume to know my faith, in its entirety. You do not, so please do not make judgements as to my honesty or motivations.

I made no claims or remarks about your faith in any complete full detail. Beliefs in an afterlife are rooted in fear of no life after death. If it were not, then there would be no need for belief in an afterlife. Unless you are trying to tell me you don't believe in an afterlife?

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by adjensen

 

I've never seen evidence of anything that indicates predestination

Predestination is a religious concept and certainly not one I described at all.

Apologies for believing that, in a thread on religion, your open ended statement that there is no free will implied predestination. If you would like to elaborate on your basis and reason for that belief, I would like to hear it.

Naive narcissist that I am (along with 99.9% of the population, I would guess... that's a lot of self love,) in the absence of evidence, I'll continue to operate under the assumption that the more sensible premise is the correct one.

Absence of evidence for what?

The lack of free will that you state without explaining why.

You presume to know my faith, in its entirety. You do not, so please do not make judgements as to my honesty or motivations.

I made no claims or remarks about your faith in any complete full detail. Beliefs in an afterlife are rooted in fear of no life after death. If it were not, then there would be no need for belief in an afterlife. Unless you are trying to tell me you don't believe in an afterlife?

Yes, I believe in an afterlife, but not out of fear. Saying "beliefs in an afterlife are rooted in fear" is presumptive and, at least in my case, incorrect.