Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?, page 15

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

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Heaven and hell are metaphors for inner peace and inner turmoil. Love is to inner peace what fear is to inner turmoil. The law (The 10 Commandments) was given to humanity in order that it may know fear and inner turmoil. The option of enlightenment (heaven) was given to humanity in various forms in order that it may transcend fear and inner turmoil and know love and inner peace. Why? Because it is not possible to know love without knowing fear, the same can be said for all other polarities that exist in our awareness. Enlightenment facilitates unity with the source which transcends inner peace by moving from local to non-local awareness. Some souls who have walked the earth in human form have chosen this option, the rest have stuck with the law (or hell), some of us through a number of incarnations. This is understandable in the context of local awareness which relies on the mind (brain) to interpret the meaning of experience which is referenced to actual past or expected future events in the physical universe. As we near "The Shift Of The Ages" a window of opportunity exists for a large number of souls to choose enlightenment, facilitated by the decline in the earth’s electromagnetic field which can be likened to the glue that holds all belief systems on the planet in place. Enlightenment is facilitated by heart-intelligence as opposed to brain intelligence. The heart is the most underrated organ in the body, although its electromagnetic field is 5000 times stronger than that of the brain. Ongoing scientific research into the intelligent role that the heart plays in our interaction with all there is and the manifestation of our dearly held beliefs into physical reality is yielding some astounding results. Worth investigating. Many blessings

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

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Your concept of God as a separate being who created us as separate beings and does things to us, judges us, and sends us to Heaven or Hell as reward or punishment, needs to be abandoned. We are extensions of God, on a great adventure to discover our Self.

reply to post by Erad3

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This post for me or are you just contributing to the thread?

Originally posted by meteoritics
reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO

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There is no hell........The god of the Bible is as real as Santa or the Easter Bunny. There are most certainly beings out there that would appear god like to us, and some of them are no doubt mean critters, but Hell???

Think about it for a few minuets, use your brain…..still believe in hell? You people scare me…….

This isn't a debate about "hell" existing. If you wanna debate that im sure there are several hundred other threads on this site that allow for that discussion. The OP asked why would a god send people to hell.....so if you wanna post here, discuss that. we aren't debating the existence of hell or god here.

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by adjensen

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Originally posted by adjensen
Free will does not contradict omniscience. God knows what path you will take because he transcends time, so, from his perspective, he already knows what you'll do next week, because it's already happened. But, for you, the decision that you'll make that will result in whatever he's seen is still in the future, and you will make it, freely, regardless of whether God knows it or not.

Sorry, but that doesn't let God off the hook.

If God foresees that evil will be done, causing suffering and misery in the world, and allows it to happen, then God is evil by definition. End of story.

I'm very sorry, but there is no way in which an omnipotent, omniscient being can possibly be good. It's a contradiction in terms.

Well if he is responsible for suffering and misery, then he is responsible for everything else too. So the way you think is because of god right? God makes you think the way you do? Its all his thoughts in your mind? Even you know this is a silly notion.

Reminds me of my ex.....do several good things, it wont matter. all she can remember is the one bad thing that happened....just let it go shanon

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by AHustler

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the new age religion totally misconstrues the Messiah of the Bible. I loved reading the Immortal Series back a few years ago, and I think JJ should stick to fictional writing, he's alot better at it....

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion no matter how wrong and uninformed it may be.

I wouldn't call JJ new age, he has taken all faiths disciplines and writings and brought them all together, and also added new light that I have not heard anywhere else. Not everyone resonates with his writings but much of it rings true to me and is confirmed by the inner voice. But to each his own as we are all on our own journey and at different spots on the path.

thank you, you just summed up the new age right there, you got Jesus, you got Buddha, you got a few catholic saints...etc.

and why is it self-serving? cuz you're only doing 'service' so you can work off you're karmic debt so you can "ascend" through the levels of initiation...

have fun on your multi-million year quest trying to reach the unreachable...

And Christians who accept Jesus do it so they do not have to take responsibility for the harm they cause others and that is not self serving?

depending on interpretation of other quotes in the NT, I can argue that even the Messiah Himself says those who accept Him for the wrong reasons aren't really accepting Him and He does not know them...

Matthew Chapter 7

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

the Messiah only accepts you're acceptance if it's sincere and for the right reasons....

So you quote some guys skewed view and think it has anything to do with the subject matter since you do not even use a correct number of years?

the number of years is irrelevant, you still choose to believe this new age philosophy that you will never be able to prove within this lifetime, I atleast have an historical and archaeological basis to fall back on...the only basis the new age has to fall back on is the historical and archaeological basis of the various religions it twists to fit its agenda...

No one enters the service to humanity just to pay off Karmic debt they do it for the love of thier fellow man for the work is to hard and trying and takes great focus that you must have a true desire to serve humanity out of love or you will not stick with it.

I'm curious, do new agers have missionaries, cuz all I could find from a "new age missionaries" search is.......nothing....all christian based missionaries, interesting....

and how exactly are you working off your "karmic debt"?

Everyone will pay thier karmic debt whether they serve or not. Service to humanity can help to pay it off faster but it cannot pay it all off. Even the scriptures say the blood of the saints and the prophets who were killed for the cause cry from the dust to be avenged. How can they be avenged if those who killed them are dead unless they reincarnate and pay the debt?

yet another Bible quote twisted to try to fit the new age belief system, and a bad example at that.

6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

THE MESSIAH is the avenger, that's an easy one...

[edit on 6-7-2010 by AHustler]

Originally posted by hawkiye
No one enters such service until they have reached a certain stage of understanding and enlightenment through many lifetimes and struggles to learn what they know from the soul or inner voice and through experience.

right, so all those suffering in the 3rd world are suffering cuz they chose to and they are merely on their path so no reason for us to get in the way of that path..

and how far along are you?? do you know? will you know when you reincarnate or will you have to learn it all over again from scratch and try to figure out once again how far along you are?? but what if you reincarnate in a remote part of the 3rd world with no access to the new age religion to help you figure it all out again??

There is no difference. Elohim is plural it means Gods not singular. It is the same word used for himself and the scripture where in he says does it not say in your law I said "Ye are gods" Or IOW ye are Elohim just as I am Elohim. or you are gods as i am gods etc. Your idea that the modern English translation capitalization has any bearing is absurd and only an attempt to justify your belief and is quite the mental gymnastics.

I think you're the one trying to find loopholes.....and attempts to justify my belief? so much more can be said for the new age in that regard...as shown already, taking bits of every religion and twisting them to fit its belief structure..

Elohim is a Hebrew word, and must be seen and viewed in the context of the Hebrew language, and in the Hebrew language, Elohim can and IS used as both plural and singular..

by your logic, since elohim is always plural, Jesus is apparently saying Ye are Gods as I am Gods, how is Jesus, one being, more than one Creator??

Exodus 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, "See, I have made thee a god (Elohim) to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." (KJV)

but apparently by your logic, He made Moses "a gods" to pharaoh

www.outreachjudaism.org...

You want to attack the messenger but you cant deal with the message. You tried to attack the author of some of the writings I linked to but you did not quote him and address what he wrote you posted some quote from some 3rd rate hack that had nothing to do with whom you tried to attacked. If you want to discuss why you think something is inaccurate instead of making useless blanket statements about the new age that aren't even relevant then give it your best shot. Otherwise quite wasting our time with amateur pot shots and false labels...

I'm whole heartedly attacking the message and overlooking the messenger...as described in the above post, JJ pushes the new age belief system, and it is that which I am attacking, in fact, i've been on the keys yahoo group mailing list now for a few years since i read the immortal series, and JJ consistently quotes DK, talks about logis, etc etc., all new age beliefs...and you right away saying you wouldn't call him such only attests to your own lack of knowledge of the new age beliefs you seem to hold so dear...

but ok, about the links you gave of JJ's writings...

link 1- Atonement Writings

right away the article loses credibility by sourcing the Book of Mormons, the golden plates the book of Mormons was apparently taken from were found less than 200 years ago, but are already lost to obscurity, the Book of Mormons is probably one of the most least historical religious texts out there...

Originally posted by hawkiye
The Christ came and dwelled in Yeshua and worked through him and they became as one but they were two entities working together through one body by mutual agreement. The Christ is indeed the greatest and Yeshua a high level initiate also, the crucifixion was his 5th or sixth initiation. www.freeread.com...

link2-Overshadowing Of Jesus

all the "I in Father,the Father in me" references prove nothing of this claim of overshadowing or "divine" possession..and can still all be used to defend Jesus as the prophesied Messiah...all the "father in me, me in father" can also be used to defend the belief that Jesus and the Father are one in the same, if 2 are one in the same, indeed what is in one will also be in the other.

if Maitreya really was "overshadowing" Jesus, a Jew, amongst Jews, surely this ever advanced being could have used terminology so as to not get Jesus killed.

John saying "And I knew him not", there are a couple possibilities for this...

1-it refers to John not knowing Jesus was the Messiah until that moment or

2- it seems there's much debate as too how closely related John and Jesus actually were... cousins, 2nd cousins, or just relatives etc., and I know that I have many blood relatives from my dads side living in PEI that I have never seen in my life and some that i know i saw when i was around 5 or so but haven't seen since and wouldn't recognize them today if i wasn't told it was them.

and lets keep in mind, the NA theories of Jesus' missing years have Him travelling around the world studying these secrets, so even the NAers own books give reason for why John might not recognize Jesus

source1
source2

source3

The bulk of Levi's gospel, first published in 1911, focuses on the education and travels of Jesus. After studying with Rabbi Hillel (a Jewish scholar), Jesus allegedly traveled to India where he spent years studying among the Brahmins and Buddhists.

Jesus supposedly became interested in studying in the East after Joseph (Jesus' father) hosted Prince Ravanna from India. During his visit, Ravanna asked "that he might be the patron of the child; might take him to the East where he could learn the wisdom of the Brahms. And Jesus longed to go that he might learn: and after many days his parents gave consent." So "Jesus was accepted as a pupil in the temple Jagannath; and here he learned the Vedas and the Manic laws."[23]

Jesus then visited the city of Benares of the Ganges. While there, "Jesus sought to learn the Hindu art of healing, and became the pupil of Udraka, greatest of the Hindu healers."[24] And Jesus "remained with Udraka until he had learned from him all there was to be learned of the Hindu art of healing."[25]

Levi proceeds to chronicle a visit to Tibet, where Jesus allegedly met Meng-ste, the greatest sage of the East: "And Jesus had access to all the sacred manuscripts, and, with the help of Meng-ste, read them all."[26]

Jesus eventually arrived in Egypt, and - in what must be considered a climax of this account of the "lost years" - he joined the "Sacred Brotherhood" at Heliopolis. While there, he passed through seven degrees of initiation - Sincerity, Justice, Faith, Philanthropy, Heroism, Love Divine, and THE CHRIST. The Aquarian Gospel records the bestowal of this highest degree: "The hierophant arose and said, upon your brow I place this diadem, and in the Great Lodge of the heavens and earth you are THE CHRIST. You are a neophyte no more; but God himself will speak, and will confirm your title and degree. And then a voice that shook the very temple said, THIS IS THE CHRIST; and every living creature said, AMEN."

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by adjensen

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Originally posted by adjensen
Free will does not contradict omniscience. God knows what path you will take because he transcends time, so, from his perspective, he already knows what you'll do next week, because it's already happened. But, for you, the decision that you'll make that will result in whatever he's seen is still in the future, and you will make it, freely, regardless of whether God knows it or not.

Sorry, but that doesn't let God off the hook.

If God foresees that evil will be done, causing suffering and misery in the world, and allows it to happen, then God is evil by definition. End of story.

I'm very sorry, but there is no way in which an omnipotent, omniscient being can possibly be good. It's a contradiction in terms.

To claim that God is evil because he allows bad things to happen simply shows that you neither understand God, nor the concept of good and evil.

Let's just say that evil is merely an aspect of good... the absence, in fact, of good. But no action is purely good or evil, because there is not just the action, there is the result, which factors in. So there's a spectrum of goodness, with pure good on one end and pure evil on the other.

From our perspective, we can quickly deduce that something is bad behaviour -- it's on the evil end of things. But, perhaps, from God's perspective, the act itself is evil, but the results are less so, when viewed in the context that only an omniscient being can comprehend.

God "allows" an evil dictator, who kills thousands of his subjects? Perhaps the injustice of this causes people to not allow the rise to power of another evil dictator, who would have killed millions.

My wife died in March of a heart attack at age 46. Pretty awful, trust me, there's not much good that I can see in that. But I'm not God. He may see her brothers and sisters, taking better care of themselves because their sister's death showed the importance of doing so. It's tough for me, but the good of extending the lives of many people, at the cost of my beloved wife, probably results in the better good coming from God "allowing" her to die, rather than fix her.

Finally, we have no idea what God has done to mitigate evil, because it didn't happen. Maybe he's offed dozens of evil dictators over the years, because the bad that they would do outweighed the good. Maybe my wife was supposed to die of a heart attack when she was 44, and he saved her then and gave us two more years of being together.

Your claim that God is evil, simply because evil exists, comes out of the ignorance and arrogance of thinking that because something seems unfair to you, from your human perspective, that makes it so to everyone, including God.

reply to post by adjensen

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"God "allows" an evil dictator, who kills thousands of his subjects? Perhaps the injustice of this causes people to not allow the rise to power of another evil dictator, who would have killed millions."

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In philosophy, the subject of Utility (utilitarianism) is contemplated. It is generally held as being rather weak, morally speaking. But when it comes to "God", nothing seems to apply, certainly not "morality" in any real sense.

Of course I understand that He is "omniscient", and so perhaps He can indeed get away with being the Great Utilitarian.

I notice that lots of replies do seem to miss the various points you make, from your mostly orthodox position. The idea of God knowing everything does seem to be a tough one, and it is common for people to impute to God a level of "responsibility", based on His unparalleled Knowledge. Naturally, our primary way of grasping at anything is to think in "human" terms, which is probably why we seem to miss the big theological points so often.

But since you brought up this idea of Utility, I continue to think that one of the weakest parts of the arguments for an eternal Hell, relate to the disturbing fact that it is by definition, of absolutely no remedial value whatsoever! I hate to invoke "human" reasoning (alas, what else do we really have?), but can you see how that aspect of "Hell" is not only unpalatable, it is blatantly unreasonable, at least based on every human intuition, and even our common experiences.

Perhaps you, and some of your fellow travelers can enlighten us. And please, try to find something more than the standard "perversity" of Man nonsense. Isn't there anything else? I can accept that people can be very twisted, and it may even be common to speak of some as "beyond redemption" (usually someone like Hitler will come to mind). But where is the reality beneath this notion, really?

Of course, the whole matter involves more than just human nature, and how permanently "perverse" we can imagine that nature becoming.

To be a bit more thorough, we would need to introduce (again) the issue of HOPE. It's not a subject that should be foreign to anyone calling themselves Christian of course, but when it comes down to it, I'm guessing that we will never be given an explanation for the "mechanics" you might say, of such a thing.

Let me elaborate. Critical to the orthodox Christian theology on this matter is the fabled "moment of death". At that moment, Caesar's famous quote, "The die has been cast." If you have the misfortune to die in a bad state, your final destination will be Hell. If you "pass the test" somehow, you will be admitted to eternal bliss (even if some prefer to have a brief stopoever in Purgatory first!).

And so, what EXACTLY happens at that critical moment, that split second of eternal ramifications? Well, let's think about it. I would submit that NOTHING happens, nothing substantial changes. By this I mean that a person would still retain their personhood, their natural qualities, which theologically are primarily what they call "mind", and "will".

If the deceased retains these essential features (of course, how else could it be?), than how is it that anything (at all) is "set in stone"? (Thank you Lady Green Eyes for adding me as a foe, and for your quotable comment in this regard.)

It's really not a difficult thought experiment. Imagine yourself dying. What, in it's essentials, has changed for you? If we presume there is an afterlife, then we need to rationally think about our "state" if you will, after that moment. And by "state", I do not mean final destination. I simply mean, will we still be able to think (use our minds)? Will we still be able to "decide", make decisions? Realize the implications of this, if it remains so. And yet, how else can you even conceive of individual survival, if these definitional features of consciousness are somehow negated?

And no, invoking fiat, by God, will not work in this case. Certainly, God "could" simply "declare" at your moment of death that you will no longer be making decisions ("judgement"), but even if He dd do this, it wouldn't matter in any real sense. And you know why. Because there would be no point to damnation if "free will" failed to remain intact. And so, back to the irrational "perversity" of the "fallen" nature, again. But when we examined that closely, it evaporated, since we have no concrete experience of such a thing, other than our coloquial manners of speaking perhaps. And certainly no rational way whatsoever that anything would really be "set in stone", at least if we were to retain what supposedly makes us responsible to begin with (free will).

I know, these are issues far beyond the usual scope of a casual discussion, but I think we can all agree that these are incredibly important issues. Whether we believe in the terrible place, or not, I tend to think that it's not merely a theological or mental health issue. This insanity is passed on, generation after generation. And so, there is an ethical dimension to it, because if it is not true, it would certainly not be something we would want to pass on to our children.

JR

reply to post by AHustler

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depending on interpretation of other quotes in the NT, I can argue that even the Messiah Himself says those who accept Him for the wrong reasons aren't really accepting Him and He does not know them...

And as I have said no one who is not sincere can stay in service to humanity very long. Many Christians and people of other faiths fake it for a time but they never last so what. Your contention that anyone who decides to serve but does not stay within your rigid black and white belief system of Christianity must be self serving makes no sense whatsoever and is an incorrect emotional blanket statement you feel bolsters you emotional attachment to your belief. There are sincere and insincere people in all faiths and disciplines.

the number of years is irrelevant, you still choose to believe this new age philosophy that you will never be able to prove within this lifetime, I atleast have an historical and archaeological basis to fall back on...the only basis the new age has to fall back on is the historical and archaeological basis of the various religions it twists to fit its agenda...

They are relevant in that it shows you do not know the subject matter you seek to condemn. There is far more evidence for many lives then not. Young children often remember their past lives and it has been proven many were accurate as to what happened in their past life and they knew things they could not have known any other way and some of their relatives still living verified the information and were shocked at what these children knew. Of course then there are past life regressions where people go back and can remember their lives etc. and the scriptures and esoteric writings of almost every culture testify of it. You have nothing but your unbelief and limited rigid cultural understanding or lack thereof to prove your opinion.

There are hundreds of cases such as these: www.youtube.com...

yet another Bible quote twisted to try to fit the new age belief system, and a bad example at that.

6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

THE MESSIAH is the avenger, that's an easy one...

Millions of people die daily on earth and those that killed the ones crying for vengeance have died long ago, many generations have passed since those crying for vengeance were killed and persecuted. So who will he execute vengeance on? According to your logic the unlucky ones who happen to be on the earth at the time he decides to do it? How is that justice if they are not the ones who killed the prophets and saints? Or those that actually killed and persecuted the ones crying for vengeance are on the earth when he executes vengeance. Reincarnation fits perfectly here. The reason they are crying for vengeance is because of those on the earth many are the same ones who killed and persecuted them in the past and reincarnated into many lives and they want their justice on them. Otherwise how does the Lord avenge the prophets of those already dead? The only way is if they live again on the earth. He promises many in ancient times they will be on the earth at his coming. How could that be? The rigid black and white believer will of course dismiss it all and never venture out of his box and question anything. If God created all things as Christians believe then he created reason logic and the ability to question. So why do you mock God and not use the the gifts of reason and logic he gave you?

do you know? will you know when you reincarnate or will you have to learn it all over again from scratch and try to figure out once again how far along you are?? but what if you reincarnate in a remote part of the 3rd world with no access to the new age religion to help you figure it all out again??

I will reincarnate where my soul sees I need the experience and or opportunity. Sometimes you must pay off some karma and learn some lessons, other times you rest, and still other times you serve and progress. What else can account for the many different circumstances people are born into seemingly undeserving? Most people have at one time or another said why me God.

Of course I have never said anything about not helping others even in 3rd world countries. You keep projecting your angry biases into it and then attacking it as if I said it which is commonly called a straw-man argument.

Elohim is a Hebrew word, and must be seen and viewed in the context of the Hebrew language, and in the Hebrew language, Elohim can and IS used as both plural and singular

And most if not all Hebrew scholars agree that it is plural and using it in singular is incorrect translation. Strong's Concordance shows Elohim as a plural noun, In Genesis 1:26, it says, "Let "US" make man in "OUR" image. Plural! Sure it is used as singular but that is incorrect translation.

by your logic, since elohim is always plural, Jesus is apparently saying Ye are Gods as I am Gods, how is Jesus, one being, more than one Creator??

Or... it is an incorrect translation and he said ye are gods as "we" are gods... Just like in Genesis.

right away the article loses credibility by sourcing the Book of Mormons, the golden plates the book of Mormons was apparently taken from were found less than 200 years ago, but are already lost to obscurity, the Book of Mormons is probably one of the most least historical religious texts out there...

Neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon are historical texts. Jesus cannot be proven to exist as a historical figure and appears as a mythical figure in many writings preceding the Bible. So according to your logic he must be a fairy tale. I always get a kick out of Christians who act like the Bible is a provable historical text of some sort. I see them as inspired texts in many ways not historical texts but have lost some of their light in translation but much of it can be retrieved by the inner voice and light of the spirit. Each will garner what his evolutionary advancement allows him to.

all the "I in Father,the Father in me" references prove nothing of this claim of overshadowing or "divine" possession..and can still all be used to defend Jesus as the prophesied Messiah...all the "father in me, me in father" can also be used to defend the belief that Jesus and the Father are one in the same, if 2 are one in the same, indeed what is in one will also be in the other.

John 5:19 
"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

So if he and the father are one and the same how is it he can do nothing of himself but has to see the father do it first? The only way this makes sense is if the Father must have lived and died and sacrificed himself on another planet so the son could see it. Which testifies to multiple lives also. He also said he is not good only the father is good. etc. Several times he distinguishes himself from he Father but says the father is in him. The Divine possession makes much more sense using simple logic. Again the black and white believer in modern tradition simply dismisses it rather then use his brain God gave him and apply a little logic.

and lets keep in mind, the NA theories of Jesus' missing years have Him travelling around the world studying these secrets, so even the NAers own books give reason for why John might not recognize Jesus

This helps makes the case that Jesus taught much more then the average Christian seems willing to consider today much less believe.

as described in the above post, JJ pushes the new age belief system, and it is that which I am attacking, in fact, i've been on the keys yahoo group mailing list now for a few years since i read the immortal series, and JJ consistently quotes DK, talks about logis, etc etc., all new age beliefs...and you right away saying you wouldn't call him such only attests to your own lack of knowledge of the new age beliefs you seem to hold so dear...

LOL! Speaking of lack of knowledge. JJ also quotes the Bible, Koran, Nag Hammadi, Buddha, Vedas, and a host of other writings so he must be a Christian, a Muslim, a Buddhist, and Hindu etc, by your logic. Oh wait I already said that he brings them all together. So your label of him being strictly a new ager doesn't even fit your rigid reasons for labeling him in the first place because he quotes a certain teaching.
Look just because you don't believe something in no way invalidates it. That is up to each individual to decide. You still haven't explained why teachings of JJ's are incorrect only that you don't believe them. You have made a few weak attempts to explain what you think some Bible passage means but most of all you have made disparaging remarks or quoted others making disparaging remarks toward him or some straw man you made up and tried to associate to him.

I don't agree with him on everything but I find much light there more so then most other places.

You are free to believe as you please and I am not here to try and impose any belief's on you but please refrain from personal attacks on people and unsubstantiated labels on people and stick to what they wrote. I doubt this will go anywhere productive at this point so perhaps we should end it and I will let you have the last word if you decide to respond.

[edit on 6-7-2010 by hawkiye]

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