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Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

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posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:01 AM
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You seem to have given this alot of thought. I would suggest that you have alot of searching to do. God loves and cares for each of us. The concept of hell has as many descriptions as there are secular institutions to provide their personal deffinitions.The answer is out there, I can assure you. I firmly beleive we are spiritual beings living a human experience. this is a although short a very important phase of eternal progression. Perhaps when we die Hell will be the reality of where we came from, what we were before we got here, and what we did while in this life. Were our decisions right or wrong? Our freedom of choice may be the catlyst that opens doors of greater exaltation. Our actions though, if self centered and non contributing to anyone or anything could result in losing a previously gained status prior to the short sojourn on earth. HELL.. knowing who you were. Where you were before comming here. and the eternal existance ahead of us based solely on our perforance here. Eternal frustration and self condemnation can be a hard pill to swollow, but Im sure many will have allot of company to blaim and complain to as the train leaves the station.




posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by IamBoon
According to the Bible he himself is the master of evil and sin. He banishes Satan, whom he created, sends him to Earth, then lets him poison our souls with desire and evil (he made us weak to sin ) , then in god's infinite wisdom , blames US for it all.

(analogy)
That is like a human walking down a road with a rabid dog, releasing it knowing it will do terrible harm , then the dog kills an infant while it;s parents are walking down the street. Now instead of blaming the dog or its owner , according to gods rules in the bible , the Parents would be blamed and sent to hell (or jail)!!!

[edit on 5-7-2010 by IamBoon]


Bad analogy. Very bad, in fact, and since you posted it twice, I have to address it. Satan was kicked out if Heaven for revolting, for trying, in fact, to take over, believing that he could be equal to God. (Not unlike some here have claimed, in fact...) Satan then came here, and started lying to people. To Eve first, who knew better, since God walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden before they chose to disobey Him. However, Satan did not force that fruit (and please can we stop calling it an apple...) down anyone's throat; they chose to eat it.

Better analogy. Young man causes all sorts of havok in their home. Father tells young man to get out, never to return, for disrupting the entire household. Young man goes off, and in his anger and pride, starts corrupting other young people. Father offers shelter for all that will simply ask for forgiveness, which is offered freely, and try to not follow the ways of the bad young man. Some agree, and are brought into the home. Others don't agree, and are forever banned.

Now, at some point comes a day when things will be intolerable outside the home. SO, should that father simply allow all inside, to ruin the lives of those that are trying to follow the rules? Really?

God never blamed us for the sins of Satan; only for our own.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:04 AM
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reply to post by SmokeandShadow
 


There is NOTHING in the Bible that states that all will be saved, and plenty to say quite the opposite. I recommend you locate a different site, and perhaps actually read the Bible for yourself. That site is quite mistaken.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by AHustler

Originally posted by hawkiye
The common Christian understanding of Christ and the Father being one misses the mark IMO. However I do agree in a sense he is God however he also said to the people Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

So he echos the eastern and other esoteric teachings that we are all God or part of God.


as said, capital and lower cases make a difference...


Yeah and Jesus said and be sure make that so that after it is translated umpteen hundred times over several thousand years that it translates to a small g so the Christians in the 20th and 21st century will understand I didn't mean the capital G gods but the small g gods... Never mind the context in which he said it


speaking of the context, notice how he said "Is it not written in your law, I said", thus taking responsibility as the Creator and God of the OT, since he is referring to the OT, you must also look at it in terms of how the terms he used there are used in the OT as a whole...and everytime the Creator is referred to it's God, when referring to the people it's gods...

en.wikipedia.org... (my emphasis)

Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity or deity, notably used as a name of God in Judaism. Its Arabic equivalent is Elohiah (إلوهية).

It is related to the Northwest Semitic word ʾēl (אֱל) "god". Within Hebrew, it is morphologically a plural, in use both as a true plural with the meaning "angels, gods, rulers" and as a "plural intensive" with singular meaning, referring to a god or goddess, and especially to the single God of Israel. The associated singular Eloah (אלוה) occurs only in poetry and in late Biblical Hebrew, in imitation of Aramaic usage.[1]


if you don't see the difference....then ya, I don't know what else to say...anyways, this side discussion is way off topic of the thread, so I'd like to stop it here, though it's ever so hard for me to not be an avid opposition to new age views when I see them...though i guess this thread got off track many pages ago...



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

No one enters such service until they have reached a certain stage of understanding and enlightenment through many lifetimes and struggles to learn what they know from the soul or inner voice and through experience.




also, evolution of the soul is hastened in those who choose to life all ranges of possible lifetimes, from the most hated or "evil" to the most loved and "good."

many souls choose the same general type of life-line and stay within a comfortable zone.
they become specialists.

some do not.
they become the rogues and messiahs and prophets and revolutionaries.
sometimes they get a break to be an artist or musician, sometimes a scientist.


either way it is 100% personal soul-choice and the nature of a bodhi is that of a volunteer and a genius




posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen
 


Why so? If god CREATED EVIL is he not RESPONSIBLE for it? If he made the DEVIL and let him CORRUPT our souls is he not to blame? Maybe it is YOU who are short-sighted and foolish. My analogy works fine. You just cannot accept it as your god can do no wrong even though that is basically what the whole Old Testament is about. That jealous ,nasty , infanticidal maniac. Example when he killed every newborn in Egypt, WHy the hell can't he just kill pharoah? Or what about just letting them go himself...? my mind is just filled with the many horrific and unjust acts committed by this invisible friend of yours.


Omnipotence does in fact hold god responsible for he cannot possibly be benevolent in all aspects if he has the power to abolish evil and in fact partakes in committing evil himself . Read the "Old Testament and the New it is all there for your soon to be teary eyes to read.

Instead of writin off a post with no rebuttal and just make a silly claim about its poster try and show some intelligence!

[edit on 5-7-2010 by IamBoon]


Please get the facts straight, if you are going to criticize. Every FIRSTborn, not every newborn, was killed in Egypt. That was after a host of other plagues, sent because Pharoah refused to release God's people. Think that's harsh? Your choice to believe so.

Plus, God did not "create" evil. Evil is simply the result of OUR choices , and those of Satan and the rest of the demons, to break God's rules. WE cause evil. Destroying those enemies of His people was not an act of evil, either. Are you seriously unaware of how corrupt many of those people were? The atrocities they committed? What, you think the Egyptians were nice guys back then? Not even close. If God had killed Pharoah, that would not guarantee that the Israelites would have been released. Some other ruler would have stepped in. Plus, if God had killed Pharoah, you would be complaining that He was some arbitrary, petty child, killing off all who dared to oppose Him. Admit it; no matter what course He took, you would find fault.

Now, all that is your choice, and you have the right to your opinions. Not saying otherwise. However, that doesn't mean you are right. Truth doesn't change because some refuse to accept it.

Must add, you are quite good about not attacking other people, even while disagreeing. Not something I have seen form many with the same viewpoints. Much appreciated.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
Wow, I didn't expect alot of responses to this thread! Thanks for all of the opinions, and personal insights on the matter! I was raised in a Christian home, and observed several moments that left me scratching my head.

For example, I have seen countless times where a group of kids (3-5 years of age) went before the church, and stated they became saved because "they didn't want to go to hell." How sad.. First off, to promote children to make a decision that they have NO concept of is wrong. Plus, they have no want for personal/spiritual growth, but only fear for burning alive for eternity.

In my mind, the church has completely missed the point of the Bible or any meaning behind God. Instead of looking at the Bible as a starting point, or the tip of the iceberg, they have become obsessed with the small/minute details which then contradicts the bigger picture. I can honestly say that Christians are the BIGGEST form of the scum bags and hypocrites, and that’s why the world looks down at them.

My personal opinion about religion is to love life, love/forgive others, and to raise children to love others. No one is perfect or can live life w/o sinning. God knows this, and wants us to except it. No matter if a Christian or not, we will sin to the day we die. Get over it, b/c according to the Bible, God already has.



I have young children, and all are saved, and not one came to that through fear. Nor did I, and I accepted Jesus at a pretty young age. Why did I? Because I was taught that He loves me, and I wanted to do what would make Him happy. Not through any fear. Through knowing that, no matter what I did, or how badly I might mess up, He would always love me. ALWAYS.

The Bible is the Word of God, given to us so that we can know Him. The entire thing, from beginning to end, is about Jesus. That's why it matters. It is very important to know what is taught, and what isn't. so that we can know how God would have us live. There are not only rules, but lessons, contained in those 66 books. The most important part is to understand that Jesus is God, and that He paid the price for our sins, so we don't have to. Doesn't mean the rest isn't important, though.

One last note. Even if a child accepted Jesus because of a fear of Hell, why would that be bad? If Hell is a real place, would not any loving parent do everything they could to keep their children from such a place? No one complains that parents tell kids not to run in the street, so they don't get hit by a car. Yet so many complain when children are taught about a much bigger danger. Personally, I find that quite disturbing. Pretending the danger isn't real won't help anyone on the Day of Judgment.

Quite an interesting thread, all in all.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 01:50 AM
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Originally posted by PuterMan
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It is necessary to have read and understood all of these documents before you can defend your faith and have the presumption to apply your beliefs to others who are not of your persuasion.

Why is it that you are not capable of understanding that YOUR religion applies only to YOU and not to those who do not follow your religion.

There are over 2600 religions in the world of which yours is but one, albeit a large one. You have absolutely no right to impose your beliefs on any of those other religions. You or any other religion as I said before does not have the right to say that it is the only correct religion and thus you have no jurisdiction to apply to me the belief that I will go to hell if I don't believe if your religion and your version of salvation.

The sooner that Christianity, Islam and Judaism get that simple fact through their heads the better place the world will be.



It is not necessary to understand things that were written far after the time, that do not agree with the Scriptures. It is only necessary to understand that many such writings were penned, but not all were Scripture. THAT is why many books were not included. Because they disagreed with other parts, or were written far later, or were based only partially on the actual Word of God.

It isn't about what
religion" applies to whom. It is about what God has stated will happen, and that WILL happen, regardless of who chooses to believe otherwise. You can get in a boat, and head downstream to a waterfall, and deny all day long that the waterfall isn't there, but that won't stop you from going over the edge.

No Christian here has stated that you, or anyone, must believe as we do. We have stated that, if you choose to believe otherwise, there are consequences, because that is what God tells us. I for one am not so arrogant as to presume I can win a debate with God. If you want to try it, feel free, but don't get upset if people try to warn you about that waterfall.

I share what I believe because of His love for me, not for any other reason. On my own, I would say "good riddance" to those that would prefer sin over love. On my own, I would be over the falls as well. He loves me, though, so I am trying to pass that along. Ok?



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...


You are starting to wake up! It can be scary and there'll be times when you will wish that you could just go back to sleep. Just stay with it and one day you'll be free from the religious programming that was always intended to keep you passive and pliable. From that point, you'll be capable of free and independent thinking in all aspects of your life.

Bon voyage!



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
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Here is another thing to consider too. Hell was created for the fallen angels and demons.....are those the same things as humans? exactly, made differently, so something that isn't flesh and blood like us....suffering in hell. how would that work with humans? you think they suffer the same way we do? interesting to think about, perhaps many missed this point, just sayin......

[edit on 7/5/2010 by The Endtime Warrior]


Not the same. but capable of suffering. Point is, of course, that eternal separation from God would come with suffering, no matter how the place was God kept those that rejected Him. If God made it a paradise, it would soon turn bad, because all there would make it so.

Long-time lie of the enemy, trying to convince people that he would rule in Hell, lol!



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:10 AM
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reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
 



There is no hell........The god of the Bible is as real as Santa or the Easter Bunny. There are most certainly beings out there that would appear god like to us, and some of them are no doubt mean critters, but Hell???

Think about it for a few minuets, use your brain…..still believe in hell? You people scare me…….



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:14 AM
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reply to post by AHustler
 





if you don't see the difference....then ya, I don't know what else to say...anyways, this side discussion is way off topic of the thread, so I'd like to stop it here, though it's ever so hard for me to not be an avid opposition to new age views when I see them...though i guess this thread got off track many pages ago..


There is no difference. Elohim is plural it means Gods not singular. It is the same word used for himself and the scripture where in he says does it not say in your law I said "Ye are gods" Or IOW ye are Elohim just as I am Elohim. or you are gods as i am gods etc. Your idea that the modern English translation capitalization has any bearing is absurd and only an attempt to justify your belief and is quite the mental gymnastics.

You want to attack the messenger but you cant deal with the message. You tried to attack the author of some of the writings I linked to but you did not quote him and address what he wrote you posted some quote from some 3rd rate hack that had nothing to do with whom you tried to attacked. If you want to discuss why you think something is inaccurate instead of making useless blanket statements about the new age that aren't even relevant then give it your best shot. Otherwise quite wasting our time with amateur pot shots and false labels...

And this subject is germane to this thread because it deals with the concept of sin and hell which the OPs question was about and how all the bad stuff we do is worked out in Gods plan.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:15 AM
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To answer the question of the OP, in what I believe, for what little it is worth~
the free will we are given determine where we will go after we die God doesn't already "have it set"... my belief is that when we die, and we are escorted by our Guardian Angel to be judged, and God askes by what right we have to enter Heaven, we are saved by Christ's death on the Cross, and by our works on earth through His death on the cross. We are not saved by faith alone, and the Bible backs that up in Scripture. That is my belief. I do not impose my beliefs on anyone else or sit here in judgment on anyone else for what they believe... I just live my life on that belief system, personally. So, my personal belief is that if people go to Hell, it is because they have failed that.

At any rate, in sifting through these posts and the answers, I am just very glad that I have my faith. I can't imagine thinking truly and for real that this mediocrity, and quite frankly, cesspool of a earthly so-called "life" would really and for eternity be "it".
Really????
Wow. What a gyp, huh? That would suck. And be quite depressing. I wouldn't want to be so afraid to hope and so cynical to believe that I would just have an absence of faith in anything. Why even try? Life here is not that great even when it is, you know?







posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:28 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by alicepip

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior

Originally posted by alicepip
reply to post by orionthehunter
 


But doesn't that still contradict the notion that god is all knowing? If he really was he would know the 'possible outcome' that you would choose. If he doesn't know that, he isn't omniscient.



you will always have contradictions when you are describing god with human logic. there is just no way around it. just like the whole can he create a rock that he can't move, and so forth. perhaps there is some other way.....


That's the easy way out. If the bible is god's word why wouldn't he write it in a way that makes sense and is logical to humans, the ones he wants to worship him. The bible is filled with inconsistencies, and that is a major reason that many former Christians have become atheists or agnostics.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by alicepip]


Fundamentalists take the Bible literally, non-fundamentalist faiths do not, recognizing that the Bible is inspired (and probably directed) by God, but written by men. Men who put things into contexts that they understood, given their world perspective. Did God give Moses Ten Commandments? Yes. Did God personally write Exodus? No.

I've never met any Christian who had a strong faith that turned to atheism due to inconsistencies in the Bible, though I've met plenty (including myself) that moved away from a fundamentalist point of view for those reasons.


Youve met one now. Well i didnt turn to atheism as the name implies a belief in no god but rather i dont follow christianity anymore. As i have stated in other posts on this site, once i stopped being afraid of dying and going to hell and started really looking with my eyes and seeing what the bible says, i was enlightened to the real truth. There are way to many inconsitencies in the bible. Too many things that the bible cannot account for and this topic is one of them. As far as god being omnicient and the existence of free will, i will go with the thought that god transcends time and knows everything that is going to happen in his universe. From the movements of the smallest atoms to the movement of the universe as a whole. However that does interfere with free will since it means accepting that the future is actually written or in some perspective already taken place. If that is so then my decisions are already made in some pretext and it matters not if i have free will to decide because its already been decided. Unless there are multiple possibilities to the future and god can see all possibilities. This would mean he is omnicient and sees everything including every choice we can make but still the uncertainty principle remains even for god. I know people would like to think that god transcends his own creation but i rather think gods is his creation. So therefore subject to even the highest laws of the universe.
Its a hard topic to argue but its my perspective.

I do not think the christian god allows people to go to hell. I agree with the poster who made the statement that the word for eternity was mistranslated. I have also read where the word for eternity or forever was actually meant to say for a time of times or something like that. A loving god of forgiveness doesnt want to see any of his creation destroyed. As such according to christianity he sent his only begotten son so none should perish. I dont think any do. Fact is the jews have no concept of hell and christians and jews follow the same god.

Also agree with the person who posted about people dont know their own bible. They dont know the history and dont know the actually true meanings of the words being translated or the culture and politics of the time the words were written. Yes politics have always played a huge role in religion. As a matter of point the pharisees were the ones to introduce the idea of a messiah during i think the second temple period as well as the idea of a ressurection. The pharisees did not always exist and the meaning of the word messiah meant annointed one and wasnt always thought of as a person who would come as a saviour. The word was often used to describe rabbis. So again you have to actually know alot about the religion your talking about and alot of its written and oral histories and traditions to get a full context of what your talking about.

I dont follow christianity anymore because i see where many times in history the meaning of the stories and words used in the bible have been twisted to fit whatever agenda was trying to be forced on the people of the times. The churches of today would paint this crazy picture of a god who wants you to believe in his son or you will die and burn in a lake of fire forever from a loving god. They craft this whole mythology of a devil who god allows to roam around tormenting people and screwing everything in some sick perverted attempt at testing my free will. Its a scary bed time story meant to controll your mind and keep you afraid all the time of whats coming to get you. If you can control peoples actions through fear of the unknown then you can do anything. Personally i am not under their yoke anymore. I still believe in god. I just do not think the modern day church has a friggin clue as to who god is.

My advice to the Op is to seek and ye shall find. Your spritual path is one long road and you may not find all the answers to your questions but you will find peace along the road if you just keep looking and asking those questions. Never let any religion tell you to be afraid to ask questions. Be more afraid of those who would teach such crap.

[edit on 6-7-2010 by fizzy1]



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:40 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Originally posted by adjensen
Free will does not contradict omniscience. God knows what path you will take because he transcends time, so, from his perspective, he already knows what you'll do next week, because it's already happened. But, for you, the decision that you'll make that will result in whatever he's seen is still in the future, and you will make it, freely, regardless of whether God knows it or not.

Sorry, but that doesn't let God off the hook.

If God foresees that evil will be done, causing suffering and misery in the world, and allows it to happen, then God is evil by definition. End of story.

I'm very sorry, but there is no way in which an omnipotent, omniscient being can possibly be good. It's a contradiction in terms.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 02:58 AM
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The book of lies does not make sense in any regard. I think what you are asking could be interpreted as, "Why would 'God' give its creations FREEWILL and then 'punish' them for using it"?

Another question that could be asked is: "Who JUDGES our actions and deeds as 'good or bad' whilst we inhabit this planet?"

The bible (book of lies) was created as a system of control over the mass population of planet earth, to be used for the purpose of manipulation and fear by the 'dark forces' which held power at the time of its creation. If you wish to research a few topics in relation to my statements, check out Constantine (who edited and omitted the female presence from the book of lies). Also you may want to check out the story of Pan Horus, and Krishna, see if you can see any similarity in their 'immaculate conception' birth into this world, see if you can see any similarity in the celestial body which was supposedly present when 'jesus', Pan Horus, and Krishna were born (of immaculate conception of course), see if you can see any similarity in the '3 wise men who came bearing gifts' to the above upon their individual 'births'.

Link below you may be interested in reading "The Terra Papers- The Secret History of Planet Earth".

www.freedomdomain.com...

which was previously in this thread-link attached

www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=4244747#pid4244747

If you are really interested you may like to research 'The feminine principle and the bible'. Only if you really are interested to know!



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 03:02 AM
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Simple solution... There is no such thing as hell!



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 03:11 AM
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'God' allows the suffering and the inhumanity in this world and will apparently send all non believers and sinners to hell to scream in agony beyond agony for eternity. hmmmm personally i would say the suppossed god does so because hes an evil twisted bast# and like far too many followers, they made their hell and they are the ones who should go to it..
The god they think they know is far from the benevolent Father figure.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by meteoritics
 


Well said, my sentiments exactly, Who said there is a god? or a satan for that matter? The book of lies (bible) is programmed into our heads by the system from a very young age AS IF IT WAS A LITERARY WORK OF FACT, which, in the opinions of the wise and awake ones, IT IS NOT.



posted on Jul, 6 2010 @ 05:02 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 



Here is how I see it; God used the word or breath if you will to create everything. God breathed out and created the vibration which created the world. When he takes the in-breathe it will retract and the universe will be no more, but he will breath out another then a new Universe begins again in that breathe. This universe is still expanding so the breath is still breathing out.


I think your getting the Ruach and the Neshama confused. The Ruach is the "wind" or spirit of HaShem. You can compare it to the Anima Mundi of the philosophers and the Brahman Atman and Paramatman of the east.

The breath itself, is the "divine spark" of life. In Hindusim the Prana, which translates as breath suprisingly, is the vitality that flows through all life, just as the Neshama does. The Prana by itself is not the Paramatman.
The Neshama by itself is not the Ruach either.


Otherwise how do you account for regressions and past life memories if we do not retain all experience and use it to progress and evolve through the planes of existence.


I never said the memories or knowledge was erased. That was my point. I don't think the breath or the Ruach ever forgets anything. The information gets recycled. The Buddhist have another concept where multiple people can have fragments of one saint's spirit. The same would apply here, multiple people alive at the same time could have fragments of a past life's breath.


The Spirit is not necessarily the breath.

Spiritus in Latin is...breath.
Other comparable terms are Pneuma in Greek, Lung in Tibetan, Qi in Chinese, Ki in Japanese, and Prana in Sanskrit.

In a sense they are a microcosmic apsect of a greater macrocosmic hypostasis, which would be the Ruach.


In the beginning G-d created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit(Ruach)of G-d was hovering over the waters.

Genesis 1:1-2



the L-rd G-d formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Genesis 2:7

[edit on 6/7/10 by MikeboydUS]



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