Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Well, I read the first page of that, and it's enough for me. As I said earlier, if you start with a premise and go through scripture, looking for something that vindicates it, that's not hard to do. So it's difficult to take someone seriously who flat declares that he's desperate to find support in Christianity for reincarnation.

The difference between reincarnation and what Christian theology says is so significant, it seems highly unlikely that this is the case, and we've just overlooked it over the centuries.

Sorry if that makes me closed minded, but faith is an important matter for me, and I don't approach it with a casual "let's try on Buddhism for a while" way of thinking.

Well that's too bad because it just gets better as it goes and proves it beyond doubt using scripture. The first page was more a primer. To each his own...

Originally posted by Maddogkull
He also said, that god is in all of us. Including him. We are all gods. Did you ever think that is what he was trying to tell us. Jesus was god. But so are you and me. We all come from the same source.

ye are gods

Q - Can you please comment or explain Psalm 82:6 where God says, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." I know in John 10:34 Jesus makes reference to this passage. I have family members who are Mormons and they use these verses to promote their belief that they will one day become gods.

A -The title, god, carries the idea of one who is exalted and powerful. Only God has all power and is fully exalted. In this sense, He alone is God (Psalm 86:8-10; Isaiah 44:6; 45:22). We are to have no other gods before Him (Exodus 20:3)...............

notice how anytime the Messiah equates Himself to the Creator capital letters are used ie. I and the Father are one, but when referring to us followers its lower case, always just gods, not Gods, you may not want to admit there is a difference, but there is, capital and lower case letters are used in these spots for a reason...

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

Another thing is, you post quotes like they came from his mouth. Did you hear him say it? The bible has been changed throughout 2000 years.

the same argument goes for those you claim the Messiah is a mix of..

[edit on 5-7-2010 by AHustler]

Originally posted by hawkiye
The common Christian understanding of Christ and the Father being one misses the mark IMO. However I do agree in a sense he is God however he also said to the people Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

So he echos the eastern and other esoteric teachings that we are all God or part of God.

as said, capital and lower cases make a difference...

Only if you believe in "G**" then you believe there is a hell, so if you don't believe in him there is no such thing. Feel free to scare yourselves into being good.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

Ahh, but you are wrong. Translations from Hebrew, Greek are different from English and other languages. Ughh I wish I can remember his name he is a lawyer, even though I do not approve of a lot of what he says he makes a good point. Something Zimmer, Andrew Zimmer? Ugh it’s something like that. For example "Eon" was the original word for eternity, eon meaning a vast amount of time, was turned into eternity, which meant infinity. It is the small things that make the difference.

the problem is that there are multiple translations, and all of them can be argued to be the right/wrong one in some shape or form, but from what i've been able to understand, none of them help in disproving the overall claims that the OT has (in hebrew as well as english) and the NT have of the basic foundations of the Creator coming in human form as the prophesied Messiah

Sorry OP, but there is no heaven or hell -

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Signals


Sorry, but how do you know

If you are talking about the Christian heaven and hell, then I agree, but you cannot dismiss some form of afterlife, what kind that is I have no idea.

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
It's just confusing to me why God would think that this way is the best way.

right!
that's what i wanted to help you with, in my first brief post.

it is a simple logic problem that you are perfectly capable of figuring out for yourself and then you will know the answer is right because it is one that came from within you rather than from another place, to you.

If there is a GOD, he/she created us, and therefore must be AT LEAST as cognitively sound as us. the creation should not be more advanced than the creator, if the creator's called GOD.

so, if this way of thinking, about the hell and punishment issue, confuses YOU...obviously it's not GOD's way of thinking but someone on your same level, another human being, albeit obviously a bit mixed up.

they might have been thinking how it would be if THEY were GOD.
so you can do the same, especially if you aren't going to be out spreading it like its gospel rather than a personal perspective!

if you were GOD, how would you do it?
i'm sure it will be very close to the truth if you don't let anyone influence you.

in the bible it says
GOD IS NOT the author of CONFUSION.

and read the accounts of NDE's!

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

God created people with a choice, and to only allow the existence of those that would choose Him would be to not allow choice at all. Plus, we are told that ALL will have a chance to decide. Why a place like Hell, I can see would be another question. Because God is just, and requires a penalty for sin. He cannot be in the presence of sin, and thus those that would not repent and accept forgiveness (offered so freely) are thus sent somewhere else. Hell is a place created to punish Satan and the other demons (no, Satan will NOT rule there), but that is where all who choose to reject Him will also go. To change that would be to be less than just, less than fair, less than perfect. God is just, fair, and perfect, and thus must require such a place, of break His own laws. Hope this helps.

reply to post by queenannie38


If you believe in NDEs, they prove that hell is not eternal.

Originally posted by AHustler

Originally posted by hawkiye
The common Christian understanding of Christ and the Father being one misses the mark IMO. However I do agree in a sense he is God however he also said to the people Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:34

So he echos the eastern and other esoteric teachings that we are all God or part of God.

as said, capital and lower cases make a difference...

Yeah and Jesus said and be sure make that so that after it is translated umpteen hundred times over several thousand years that it translates to a small g so the Christians in the 20th and 21st century will understand I didn't mean the capital G gods but the small g gods... Never mind the context in which he said it

Originally posted by hawkiye
This is all evidenced by people who have supposedly accepted Christ but they commit some sin and are not absolved of the pain suffering guilt and consequence of thier action. The atonement was to help them get over thier guilt so they wouldn't waste thier life dwelling on thier guilt and move on. So in this sense he does save all who will accept. As I said the literal black and white interpretation of many Christians is very limited in light.
Here is some good articles on it: www.freeread.com...

He also taught "cast your bread upon the waters and it will come back to you a hundred fold". This is the law of karma and this is how sins or harm to others is paid for, and this is what it means to pay the utter most farthing. Everything you do or send out will come back to you whether good or bad regardless of if you believe in Christ or not.

The Christ came and dwelled in Yeshua and worked through him and they became as one but they were two entities working together through one body by mutual agreement. The Christ is indeed the greatest and Yeshua a high level initiate also, the crucifixion was his 5th or sixth initiation. www.freeread.com...

the new age religion totally misconstrues the Messiah of the Bible. I loved reading the Immortal Series back a few years ago, and I think JJ should stick to fictional writing, he's alot better at it....

link

Judging by Bailey's multileveled flowcharts, these enlightened beings are more rank-conscious than any corporation on earth. [Just the name "Hierarchy" says it all.] When someone is initiated into the "Ageless Wisdom", he starts on a very long path (spelled out in detail by Bailey in _Initiation, Human and Solar_) which places a premium on self-propelled upward progress, measured by "service". [Please note that the NA concept of "service" is frequently misunderstood. It is not the volunteerism freely rendered out of compassion for the less fortunate, which rightly inspires admiration; NA "service" resembles the bonded conscription now outlawed in most societies - forced labor to get out of debtor's prison. In short, the motive for "service" on the part of better-informed NAers is (pardon the pun) intensely self-serving.]

and why is it self-serving? cuz you're only doing 'service' so you can work off you're karmic debt so you can "ascend" through the levels of initiation...

have fun on your multi-million year quest trying to reach the unreachable...

[edit on 5-7-2010 by AHustler]

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

God created people with a choice, and to only allow the existence of those that would choose Him would be to not allow choice at all. Plus, we are told that ALL will have a chance to decide. Why a place like Hell, I can see would be another question. Because God is just, and requires a penalty for sin. He cannot be in the presence of sin, and thus those that would not repent and accept forgiveness (offered so freely) are thus sent somewhere else. Hell is a place created to punish Satan and the other demons (no, Satan will NOT rule there), but that is where all who choose to reject Him will also go. To change that would be to be less than just, less than fair, less than perfect. God is just, fair, and perfect, and thus must require such a place, of break His own laws. Hope this helps.

Here is another thing to consider too. Hell was created for the fallen angels and demons.....are those the same things as humans? exactly, made differently, so something that isn't flesh and blood like us....suffering in hell. how would that work with humans? you think they suffer the same way we do? interesting to think about, perhaps many missed this point, just sayin......

[edit on 7/5/2010 by The Endtime Warrior]

Originally posted by Maddogkull
See again, its stupid. You go to hell because you do not believe in christ, even if you are good through your life. In that case I might be become a terrorrist and believe in chirst, and I will still go to heaven. That argument is illogical and stupid. How can someone not see through that?

You are trying to label God with human logic. His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. His standard is perfection, not "basically good" or doing some good things. Not one person born is without sin. We ALL sin, to one degree or another, and any sin means eternal separation from God. Only by accepting Jesus, and having those sins washed away, can we be forever with Him. Yes, He loves all, but He doesn't force anyone to love Him back. That would not be love.

Originally posted by alicepip

That's the easy way out. If the bible is god's word why wouldn't he write it in a way that makes sense and is logical to humans, the ones he wants to worship him. The bible is filled with inconsistencies, and that is a major reason that many former Christians have become atheists or agnostics.

[edit on 4-7-2010 by alicepip]

God's Word does make sense. To me, at least. it won't to one that does not believe, and it even says so. First comes that step of faith, then understanding. There are no contradictions, either. Nor "former Christians"; if they are not now, they never were.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

What are you talking about? You do not have to believe in religion to be spiritual..... The most spiritual people out there do not believe in religion. There are monks that are not even bound to Buddhism or any religion that are more spiritual then any priest in the Christian religion. That statement is just ignorant. After I realised a close friend I had knew who passed away; I asked a minister, this minister was much respected, throughout the Christian community, if my friend would go to heaven. You want to know his response? If he believes in the lord Jesus Christ he will be fine. This person was in the Peace Corps, (Canadian equivalent) VOS. He helped TONS of people. And you are telling me he is going to go to hell? I think in today’s day in age more people would like to go to hell. Beer, strippers, and tons of fun

What does heaven got a bunch on men playing chess?

Religion is just a system of beliefs. It doesn't have to include a deity.
definition of religion

Those monks are religious, you see. Not following a god, maybe, but still religious in their way.

As for your friend, I am sure he did a lot of good for a lot of people. However, what else did he do? Did he ever lie? Covet something someone else had? Show anger to another? Think a bad thought about anyone? Speed, even a little? We ALL sin, even people like that who otherwise do many good things. Any sin is reason for condemnation. Harsh? Maybe, but God provided a way out, by dying in our place. No greater love than that. No amount of good deeds saves us.

reply to post by AHustler

the new age religion totally misconstrues the Messiah of the Bible. I loved reading the Immortal Series back a few years ago, and I think JJ should stick to fictional writing, he's alot better at it....

Everyone is entitled to thier opinion no matter how wrong and uninformed it may be.

I wouldn't call JJ new age, he has taken all faiths disciplines and writings and brought them all together, and also added new light that I have not heard anywhere else. Not everyone resonates with his writings but much of it rings true to me and is confirmed by the inner voice. But to each his own as we are all on our own journey and at different spots on the path.

and why is it self-serving? cuz you're only doing 'service' so you can work off you're karmic debt so you can "ascend" through the levels of initiation...

have fun on your multi-million year quest trying to reach the unreachable...

And Christians who accept Jesus do it so they do not have to take responsibility for the harm they cause others and that is not self serving?

So you quote some guys skewed view and think it has anything to do with the subject matter since you do not even use a correct number of years?

No one enters the service to humanity just to pay off Karmic debt they do it for the love of thier fellow man for the work is to hard and trying and takes great focus that you must have a true desire to serve humanity out of love or you will not stick with it.

Everyone will pay thier karmic debt whether they serve or not. Service to humanity can help to pay it off faster but it cannot pay it all off. Even the scriptures say the blood of the saints and the prophets who were killed for the cause cry from the dust to be avenged. How can they be avenged if those who killed them are dead unless they reincarnate and pay the debt?

No one enters such service until they have reached a certain stage of understanding and enlightenment through many lifetimes and struggles to learn what they know from the soul or inner voice and through experience.



[edit on 6-7-2010 by hawkiye]

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Another thing, pain can be controlled. They say we will burn in a lake of fire forever. If it is forever, we will eventually be able to get use to pain, and it would be a normal thing throughout our life. Pain would then become normal, and would hence not be painful. If you are exposed to it forever, eventually it would be normal and not devastating. Eventually if hell does exist would not even be painful. Some people might even like a lot of pain. The notion of hell being a fire abyss is illogical.

Again, I am not a Fundamentalist. I do not take everything in the Bible as literal, so whether hell is a lake of fire, forced absence from God, or oblivion, I have no idea. But I do know that, given the choice, I would take heaven over hell, and the steps to ensuring that are pretty simple.

I agree with some of what you say, but would have to place myself in that "fundamental" category. Hell is a very real place, and I hope that the truth we can share here will keep some from it. Simple steps indeed, my friend!

Originally posted by JR MacBeth

...Here's what I observed that I found quite interesting. From what I could tell, it didn't look like anyone actually believed in hell to begin with! ...

And so I thought about real people, people in my life, people I knew, people who "should" really believe in hell (think about your pastors and priests, maybe even your devout grandma!), and yet, none of them really passed the "test" I had devised. And that test had to do with how people really acted, when one of their loved ones "fell into hell". Because we all know that actions speak louder than words.

...What about those we love? For example, we could say something like "Mama's boy is dead, but he sure wasn't saved!" This might happen a thousand times a day. And yet, after a normal period of Mama's grief, what we really observe is that life just goes on.

But should it? "If" Mama (or anybody) truly believed her beloved was suffering in that terrible place, wouldn't they ACT differently? Shouldn't they be insane with grief, perhaps come to hate God even, etc. In my other post, I use the example of a big pot of hot water in your house, with your loved one inside! They would be hard to ignore in this example, but if you really believed in that awful place, you wouldn't have to have it in your face, you would believe. But what do we see? Life just goes on!
...
What about the complete lack of remedial value in Hell? You mean, Hitler could suffer a million years, and not "get it"? You mean Christ, the "Divine Physician" can't fix Hitler? Hmmm.

Trust me, there are Christians that believe in Hell, as a real place. I am one of them, and have known quite a few over the decades. I had a friend die that wasn't saved. Terrible thing! Worst funeral I have ever attended, and that includes, for the record, losing both parents, and twin grandsons. Losing this friend was worse, because, in his case, I know it's forever. Nothing I can do will change that. I talked to him, and we discussed all the relevant information, but in the end, he rejected it. I won't hate God for that, though! MY friend made the decision.

As for Hell having, or not having, "remedial value", that would not work. By the time one gets there, they have set their decision in stone. Those that choose that path had every opportunity. Wanting out of prison once one is there doesn't mean the prisoner would act differently, if given another chance. You see, God knows what choices they would make in that case.

reply to post by Maddogkull

If you believe in NDEs, they prove that hell is not eternal.

that's right

hell is not eternal

and most likely, from what i've read, neither is death!

...possibly anything similar to hell that exists is more the makings of our own fears than some angry deity frowning upon us from a 20 ft tall judge's bench, where we stand upon a trapdoor...

and if it's fear, it is most likely fundamentally fear of the unknown.
the greatest of which is death...

the fear of which can be relieved by the growing number of NDE experiences and a little spreading of the good news!

because if death isn't unknown, therefore scary, hell will disappear for everyone!


that's a nice non-vicious circle!




so to sum up...

hell is temporary as an abode and hell exists only for a limited time, as hell - but until fear is defeated, some sort of hell is a possibility for everyone, but almost impossible if they do not fear such myths as

some angry deity frowning upon us from a 20 ft tall judge's bench, where we stand upon a trapdoor...

commonly spread in our society by certain christians holding certain beliefs and the need to proselytize using threats of hell (because it worked to convince them, so it must be true!!!!)



the moral of the story is FEAR NOT