I mourn...

In the aftermath of July 4th... It's a rather difficult day to sleep for those of us who work nights....

I can't help but wonder how many of those folks cracking off the noisy fireworks at three in the morning actually understand just what the fourth represents, or represented to our forefathers and mothers?

A republic founded on the notion that all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights... The Declaration of Independence stated this. The Constitution, sometime later, enumerated how we'll go about protecting those inalienable rights...

The document itself is as perfect a document as man in committee can come up with... It's enforcement has been just a bit spottier...

I don't see, as yet, a real decline in our freedoms. I do, however, see a marked decline in our willingness to speak to those freedoms, and protect them from those who might, for whatever reason, subvert them. Our voting in elections is shameful in its lack of turnout. Our willingness to let "talking heads" do our thinking for us...

During the Civil War, an incompetent general by the name of McClellan ran against Abraham Lincoln for President. ...and it was going to be a tight, tight race. McClellan and his supporters were calling for peace-talks with the South, which would have, had they been implemented successfully, spelled the end of the United States as we've come to know them.

Down south, another general, maybe the best general the United States has ever come up with, had the fate of his nation in his hands. General William T. Sherman had laid siege to Atlanta. General Sherman had a strong dislike for President Lincoln. He could have just sat until after the elections, and in all likelihood, cost Lincoln his second term. But he put country ahead of animosity and continued his campaign to it's successful conclusion.

How many of us, and our so called leaders, are willing to do that today? Few, unfortunately, it would seem.

I can't ask others to defend my own freedoms, 'cause if I'm not willing to do what I can, I deserve none of it. Nor do you lot, if you're not willing to do what you can.

I'm not saying join the military and lay siege to a city. Or go to foreign shores and fight there. I'm saying do what you can. Talk to folks. Talk to your elected reps.

Not complain. Talk. There's a marked difference. When one complains, generally after a while, it's noise and gets tuned out. Talking? Why, sometimes you wind up sharing ideas, coming to an understanding...maybe even *gasp* reaching a solution.

July 4th celebrates the achievement of a bunch of guys who got tired of complaining, and started talking amongst themselves. The Constitution even more so.

General Sherman was a living example of honor ahead of politics.

Are we any less then they were? Some would say yes. I disagree. Though we are somewhat spoiled by what previous generations have accomplished, the genes remain the same. All we have to do, is get up and do it.



[edit on 7/5/2010 by seagull]

reply to post by nixie_nox


"nixie_nox," while I can understand where you are coming from, I think you really need to "digest" what the original poster of this thread was/is trying to say, and that is, "If we the people do not do something, and soon, then we will "become" the next India, Congo, Sudan, Ethiopa, Turkey," etc. So, now do you understand?

Yes, we are rich in America, but, how did those people in those other countries get into the shape they're in?... probably most of it is because of their own doing, because "you reap what you sow"(Galatians 6:7).

Anyway, we have a lot to be thankful for in America, and yes, we still have all of those conveniences you mentioned here in America, but remember, there are starving people in America, and not every American lives in a place as "posh" as you do who still have access to said conveniences. I know of many areas in America with no 24-hour stores or emergency rooms, or such like. So, be careful what you say!

nixie_nox, if we as a people do not do something soon, something just shy of a "miracle," then you will get to live in "Sudan and The Congo," right here in America!

~ MidnightPoet

P.S. I have been to 10 foreign countries, lived in a foreign country, spent 8 culturally shocking days in Turkey, so I know what I am talking about. If we don't do something in America, and "SOON," then we will become like them(all the countries you mentioned)!!!

Originally posted by David9176


IMO...the US FLAG has turned into one big ass, gigantic DOLLAR SIGN.

That is because YOU have made it "one big ass, gigantic DOLLAR SIGN"
because you're to ignorant to know the difference!

You know, so many people want to speak to the Declaration and the Constitution as enumerating inalienable rights grated to us by our creator.
And they suggest that these natural rights are granted by God and available to all men.
And yet, when these documents were written, slavery was legal, a complete abrogation of a significant portion of our citizenry's 'natural rights' endowed to us by our creator.
I make this point only to suggest that Government 'of, by and for the people' and the concepts of 'natural rights' are constantly shifting. How is it possible that just 230 years ago, enlightenment thinkers like Jefferson and Adams were so willing to ignore the natural rights of a segment of American citizenry? who knows, maybe political expediency, maybe they ignored it because they realized it was the only way to guarantee a 'greater union.' Who knows.
But, the point is, our idea of natural rights for all people is constantly growing and changing and this whole whining about how the government is taking away the rights of the people is so shortsighted as to be psychotically myopic. How does a guarantee of health care take away my rights, how do good roads, a dependable postal service and public transportation and schools (ehhhhh we need to work on this one) suggest a slide into tyranny?
I'm sorry I just don't get it.
I'm tempted to say something pithy like "America love it or leave it" but that would be a simple negation of what I hope is an intellectually thought out position on the erosion of our rights. I just don't see it.

I salute you!! I agree, completley- MOST "Holidays", are simply over-commercialized! I celibrate Holy-Days, as well as INDEPENDENCE DAY (NOT "the fourth of July)!! I honor Our Vetrans, on Memorial day, and Vetrans Day. I will NOT buy my Mother of Father, cards to satisfy Hallmark. I love THEM, EVERY day of the year! I tell them so, every day- as I do my spouse!
Boycott the Multinationalmegacorps!!

reply to post by TheRedneck

That every man (person) is created equal, and it is then up to them as to how they wish to use that equality.

Except for women until around 1920
Except for black people until around 1968
Oh, and in the 1940's, Japanese American's weren't "equal" either

That the basic rights of mankind are not given by any government, but are inherent (i.e. "endowed by their Creator").

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, that God intends for us to have rights as human beings, but in this country, they have always, and will always, be nothing more than privileges.

That government is but a necessary evil, and as such should be kept to the minimum necessary to a functioning society.

Yeah, until rich people want tax breaks and poor people want welfare. It's funny how nobody wants government in their lives unless government is giving something to THEM, then it's okay.

That the best way to keep government in check is through public knowledge of its operations and public ability to speak out against it and resist tyranny by force where necessary.

That people are the purpose of government, not that government is the purpose of people.

That a society, when left alone, will find ways to provide for itself and its people; government, when allowed, will find ways to provide for itself at the expense of the people.

I love these ideals, sadly, this has never been so in the entire history of our nation.

That people should be able to change their course in life, to better themselves above the class levels they found themselves born into, to associate with those they choose to associate with, as their own talents and desires and tenacity allows.

While there are a few rare exceptions we could point to of exceptionally gifted people who were in the right place at the right time, the overwhelming majority of the average American simply does not fit into this notion. If a person is not given a real chance to succeed, how can they ever capitalize on it and win?

That ownership of property is one of those basic rights which no government can take away, as property is the fruits of the individual's labor.

Unless you speak to an American Indian.










I wince at posts like yours, with all due respect. You point out all these feel good notions about a piece of paper we all hold so true (The Constitution) that has protected the "rights" of those who can afford them, and destroyed the rights of those who cannot since it's creation.

People always put on an American flag lapel and dance around with a twinkle in their eye talking about freedom this and freedom that, except when you bring up how freedom has only ever truly applied to filthy rich white men through out the course of our nations history...then of course they reach for their guns and scream "if you dont like America GET OUT"

Except that me, and those like me, love America and love the ideas that she claims to stand for.

But we refuse to look at a road apple and call it a pretty flower.

[edit on 6-7-2010 by Snarf]

Mark this day as the one where I fired my military. They began to endanger my freedom, committed horrible acts, and were no longer controlled by the people of America. I will protect my own freedom from now on.

reply to post by nixie_nox

well Jesus loves all his children,

If Jesus loves all his children, then why are they suffering like that in those pics? I had abusive parents, and I suffered to various degrees myself- and I can honestly ask today (because my life is pretty much gone)- "Why didn't Jesus love *me*"- and at this point I add - "or anyone else".....

reply to post by Snarf


All that you pointed out is true. No point in denying it. Or sugar coating it. For far too long, the constitution was for white guys only in all too many cases. However, things change. Civil rights are for everyone now.

The Constitution enabled those changes to be made. Because people, and rightfully so, pointed out that the freedoms enumerated therein are for everyone, or for no one.

The history hasn't always been pretty. Infact, much of it is ugly... Doesn't change the good any, though.

Celebrate the good. Condemn, and fix, the bad. We as Americans have always tried to do that. Not always a roaring success, but we try. There's a certain glory in the striving.

It's all very well and good to remember the bad, and the evil that has been done. How else do we try to learn to avoid making those same mistakes? But there's no crime in celebrating the very real accomplishments, either.

reply to post by Snarf

Except for women until around 1920
Except for black people until around 1968
Oh, and in the 1940's, Japanese American's weren't "equal" either

We could go back and forth all day about what is wrong with the United States and what is right. In the end we would both be admitting one thing about it:

Every government is run by people and people make mistakes.

But if we were to compare these atrocities (and yes, they were such) to other countries and other cultures, we would see a difference. True, women could not initially vote. But they were not sold into marriage as a type of slavery. They did not undergo forced mutilation (female circumcision). They were not looked upon as a type of property the wealthy accumulated in harems.

Black slaves were not regularly tortured either; that is propaganda. It did happen, and I agree that even one time is one time too many, but the majority of slaves were treated with some modicum of civility, although not required by law. Again, it does not make slavery 'right', only emphasizes the difference from other cultures where defeated opposing tribes had their men slain in cold blood or forced into brutal slavery, the women were raped, and the children were thrown out like garbage and killed.

The real measure of any society is not perfection; if that standard is used, none of us, not you, not me, nor anyone reading this, can ever hope to succeed. That bar is simply too high. The real measure of success for a society is the mean standard of living for its people. In that respect, no other country can claim to have made the progress we have in the time frame we made it. In a scant 200 years we went from a rag-tag band of colonists just trying to survive the winter months, the summer heat, and the indigenous animal life, to a superpower with one of the world's strongest and best equipped military forces, a country where poverty was so far above the global definition as to be unthinkable to the latter, a food producer the likes of which the world had never seen, and a technological giant.

Name one other country who did that.

Since that pinnacle, we have forgotten our way, and that is what this thread is about. We have abandoned the societal mores and customs and philosophies that made us what we were, in return for material goods and societal acceptance. Where once we saw a challenge and rushed to meet it, now we cower back from such and concern ourselves with regulations that, according to the founding documents, should never even exist.

Once upon a time, a person married with the expectation that this spouse would be their life mate. Now it is a matter of convenience, and is tossed aside at the slightest detail. the children, once nurtured above all else, are left with emotional scars to repeat the process next generation in an ever-increasing spiral.

Once a person would look at a need and try to determine how to fill it themselves. They would work hard, long hours and accept great risks to provide a need for their fellow man and be richly rewarded should they succeed. Now we see a need and we post on a message board on the Internet, write our Congressmen, or apply for government help.

Once a person who succeeded was upheld in society as a shining beacon of hope that yes, it can be done, and with enough work, enough foresight, and a little luck, I can succeed too. Now those who are successful are scorned, reviled, punished through taxation, and despised as somehow the thieves of that American Dream they achieved.

The country has changed, not in it's structure, but in its ideals. And when we lose those ideals, we lose the advantages they have wrought us in the past. Just as the farmer with the goose that laid the golden eggs, who became greedy and killed the goose to get the eggs inside and succeeded only in losing all he had, so we have focused on the ends and forgotten the means.

That's what this thread is about, not the mistakes men do. I think we are all familiar with that.

TheRedneck

beautiful rant, Redneck!

the only way I can think of replying is by linking to this book.

reply to post by The Cap de Pepene


Don't suppose you'd like to explain that a trifle more?

I certainly don't want to leap to any conclusions...so please elucidate further. Your words, not some book reviews.

Redneck, your post is very thoughtful and expressive and I can't disagree with your sentiments.

I, too, am unemployed through no fault of my own. I was laid off back in March from the best-paying job I've ever had. Since then I've searched for work to no avail. I still have a small option, but it will leave me with only money enough to barely get by in a field I am reluctant to work in again due to the all-around disrespect it earns from all walks of the public.

This past Independence Day I was invited to a friends house for grilling and fireworks and I declined. For the first time in years I didn't buy fireworks for myself and am becoming increasingly depressed. I didn't even sit in my backyard and watch the city firework display like I have in years past. I felt that I had nothing to celebrate.

reply to post by TheRedneck


Wish I could multi-Star & Flag! Thank you so much for sharing!

[edit on 6-7-2010 by 1curious1]

reply to post by TheRedneck


I "get" your frustration and rant. Most of us share at least some of that opinion. But I am confused on the capitalism thing: in the early part you laud how capitalism was the great engine that made so many comforts possible, yet towards the end you slam corporations run amok. Which is it? Corporations are amoral by definition, whose sole existence is profit for its investors. While I personally find that abhorrent (some base level of morality must be codified into all human institutions I think), the BPs of the world are only doing as unfettered capitalism allows it to do. So which is it?

Also, I am not sure I get you comments about religious ridicule and the freedom of religion somehow now meaning freedom from religion. That makes no sense. Most of the American population -- a wide majority -- considers itself Christian, so what minority are you complaining about is being ridiculed? Huge numbers of Americans are evangelical and control politics and other corridors of power at many levels. From my vantage point, I see the extreme religious of all faiths ridiculing other faiths and all the faiths ridiculing the non-believers into mostly silence for fear of social ostricization or worse.

reply to post by seagull

The Constitution enabled those changes to be made. Because people, and rightfully so, pointed out that the freedoms enumerated therein are for everyone, or for no one.

That is a very good point...one i did not consider when writing my post.

The constitution its self is a double edged sword...i kinda like that approach actually.

reply to post by seagull

The Constitution enabled those changes to be made. Because people, and rightfully so, pointed out that the freedoms enumerated therein are for everyone, or for no one.

That is a very good point...one i did not consider when writing my post.

The constitution its self is a double edged sword...i kinda like that approach actually.

reply to post by TheRedneck

Every government is run by people and people make mistakes.

You're absolutely right, people do make mistakes.

And it's one thing to make a mistake, fess up to it, make amends, and move on.

It's another to dismiss that "mistake" as ever having been a mistake at all, and instead shouting "IF YOU DONT LIKE AMERICA, THEN YOU GET GEEEEEEET OUT!"

Which a LOT of people are doing now.

I don't feel any pain because I have always known.

My relatives came to the US from Bohemia and Germany - and they had the lives depicted in Upton Sinclair's book The Jungle.

They came to the US in the early 1900s. They may as well have been slaves. The Capitalists exploited them.

They KNEW this. Even then.

They got out of this hole by sheer determination, hard work, good luck, moving, and they started their own biz of which a good chunk of it was bootlegging liquor.

If they had not gone to crime - they'd never have gotten anywhere.

That, and education. You can rest assured that education was literally beat into us.

But none had any illusions nor were big flag wavers. ALL KNEW that the US was corrupt and favored the wealthy.

I want to say something else also - to another group that I feel has been deceived, I use the above as example - see my relatives always *knew* that the system was rigged and its all a bunch of BS and you're being USED - but it seems to me that alot don't realize this.

Anyway - I see alot of people in the Southern US - who are big flag wavers and Pro America. I think these people have been used. I recently came across something which is interesting - about the people they call "Borderers" - maybe the original "Rednecks" if you will ~ (some strong language is included).
Essay on "Borderers"

Well I read stuff like this and it seems to me that these people were used. In many ways.

And current people in the South - there's been so many problems - besides environmental - Big Biz has taken over the agriculture, fishing, etc.

I can't understand why some people in the South are so "Pro USA" when it seems to me they've been used and screwed over for quite awhile.

As a really simplistic example - take Pro USA cartoon guy Hank Hill. Why does he not realize that TPTB would easily nuke the entire state of TX if the spirit moved them?

And his employer exploits him - but it is shown as fair. He makes good $ and has a nice home. In the Real World - his boss would be looking for a robot or offshore worker to replace him. Or, just dispense with the "Customer Service" all together.

Why do people not know these things? Esp certain "hard core patriots" in certain regions?

I have always known "the truth" - hell - my great grandparents saw it way back in the day.

I'm a dyed in the wool Socialist myself because I have seen how 'the worker', The Proletarian - is exploited. Besides horror stories from relatives - I myself worked in "Corporate America" for a number of years and I've seen it all first hand.

I can't tell you HOW MANY times I've said to people: I TOLD YOU SO! And it has come to pass.

Nothing psychic on my part - just knowledge of what goes on. US Manufacturing collapse? TOLD YOU SO. Real Estate collapse? TOLD YOU SO. Disregard for the environment? Hell I was saying TOLD YOU SO before Katrina - you're shocked by the BP oil leak? Not me - TOLD YOU SO.

If there's any hardcore "patriotic flag wavers" left - you really need to consider other angles and give up on the "Good Ol USA" Propaganda you've been fed.

They LIED to you. They USED you.

I believe, rather eloquently I may add, that you have managed to write down what I personally believe the "enlightenment" associated with 2012 really means.

I never thought it to mean we would all suddenly wake with telepathic ability; I never thought it to mean that we would watch thousands to millions of people ascend to the heavens; I never thought it to mean that suddenly aliens would appear and 'save' us....

Rather, and more appropriately, I believe that as the months and years of this recession continue....and things get rougher and more intense.....when war is declared in order to try salvage what's left and determine who will remain standing....when Mother Nature continues on her course of power as she has throughout the ages....

I believe it will be then, that collectively, near the brink, the real brink, we will reach the conclusion that you have bravely already faced.

When it comes down to it, we are damn lucky to be a part of this country and that it is worth fighting for. Perhaps not the current China-encrusted plastic wasteland we currently see...but the true United States. The one we would all be proud of to call home.

It may lay in the hands of the next generation, but it is most certainly our job to be the teachers, the supporters, the historians.....the guidance they will need to reach the potential they deserve and this country deserves.