Have all Christians been duped? Evidence here.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
It is said "Doctor, heal yourself", and both Christians following the Bible as is and others believing and speculating or theorising over other solutions to the Christ stories should agree on this, that it was God (who is love) who saved whoever was nailed to the cross. I have explained over and over how everyone in this scenarios surrounding the crucifiction (including a couple of common criminals, were all saved by love.

Jesus was a myth.

Can you explain why NOT ONE Christian writer claimed to have met Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Lazarus, Martha, Nicodemus etc.

All these people in the stories were UNKNOWN to actual Christians - we have dozens of books from early CHristians, and NOT ONE claims to have personally met a historical Jesus (except the late and forged 2 Peter.)

Jesus himself left NO mark on ANYONE - no history, no evidence, NOTHING.

All we have is a vast body of CLAIMS and BELIEFS about Jesus.
But NO actual contemporary evidence.
None.


Kap

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Although I agree in the facts of the situations, and you even earned a star for it, I disagree that a fairytale can overturn empires and make about 1/4th of the worlds population into believing the fairytale is fact.

So,
you believe in Krishna then?
And Buddhism?
And you believe in Islam too?

Oh - you don't?
So your silly argument only applies to YOUR religion?

People NOW are believing in Scientology,
people THEN believed in all sorts of nonsense.

Your entire argument amounts to :
"People believe it, so it must be true"

Really?
Millions of people believe in :
unicorns,
angels,
faeries,
leprechauns,
Krishna,
Buddha
etc.

So what?
BELIEF means NOTHING - we KNOW people believe false things all the time.


Kap





There are loads of blunders and errors, inconsistent historical records, impossible scenarios etc. But it's still the best story ever told, and if something is as good as this, there has to be something to it. It's either a well played hoax made to test humanity, or it is simply the records of a catastrophy which went well despite all odds.

reply to post by Kapyong


The Apostles left a historical trail, some of the early church fathers were students of the Apostles and students of their students.

Peter has a number of accounts outside the Bible. John was the teacher of Polycarp.

The biggest issue with anything from that time frame was the Roman-Jewish war which laid waste to Judea right after the time of the crucifixion.
Christianity as a Jewish sect was so small until after that war, that what little records, if any were even made, could have been easily lost.

Gday,

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The Apostles left a historical trail,

Not correct.

NONE of the book of the Bible was written by anyone who met a historical Jesus.
NONE of the people ALLEGED to have met Jesus left ANY evidence at all.

Which is why you didn't provide any evidence.


The books of James, Jude, John, and Peter were ALL forged by people who NEVER met Jesus.

The Gospels were all written by unknown people who never met Jesus.

That is the consensus view of modern NT scholars.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
some of the early church fathers were students of the Apostles and students of their students.

Not correct.

None of the Church fathers met ANYONE who met Jesus.

That is the consensus view of modern NT scholars.

And that's why you didn't cite any EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Peter has a number of accounts outside the Bible.

Really?
So why didn't you quote them?

There is NO historical evidence of ANYONE who met Jesus.
Someone called Peter probably did exist - so what?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
John was the teacher of Polycarp.

John doesn't say that.
Polycarp doesn't say that.
There is no actual hard evidence of that.

Instead - OTHER people long afterwards make that CLAIM.

That's what Christian belief amounts to - OTHER people much LATER making CLAIMS about EARLIER legends.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The biggest issue with anything from that time frame was the Roman-Jewish war which laid waste to Judea right after the time of the crucifixion.
Christianity as a Jewish sect was so small until after that war, that what little records, if any were even made, could have been easily lost.

Yes,
records showing Jesus was a total myth could have been lost.

Making an argument on evidence that does NOT exist is ridiculous.



Kap


[edit on 5-7-2010 by Kapyong]

Originally posted by Kapyong

Jesus was a myth.

Can you explain why NOT ONE Christian writer claimed to have met Jesus, Mary, Joseph, Lazarus, Martha, Nicodemus etc.

This is the most common and uninterresting off-topic argument which always seems to surface from parrots who somehow have to say this every time they post in this forum. Sorry, not very impressed.

Well, the writer or mediator of the Gospel of John claims to have witnessed the long walk and the crucifiction, and "John" also says that Jesjuah carried his cross all the way to the top. And then we have Simon Peter who has written a couple of epistles, and also Jude, Jesu' brother.

John 21:24 This is the [beloved] disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by Kapyong


The Apostles did leave a historical trail, especially with their students who became various officials in the early church.

I didn't say anything about the books of the Bible, but if you want to get into that.

Paul's letters date back to the time Paul was alive. Paul met Peter and talks of Peter.

None of the Church fathers met ANYONE who met Jesus.

Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle John, is a well recorded historical figure.

I didn't cite any evidence, why don't you research Polycarp? You show me where Polycarp didn't exist.

That is the consensus view of modern NT scholars.

What scholars?

And that's why you didn't cite any EVIDENCE.

I hate all caps. I cited Polycarp.

You do realize when he was alive? The same timeframe that the Apostles would have been old men.

Polycarp doesn't say that.

His students did:
Irenaeus, Adversus Haeresis, (c. 180) iii.3.4, v.33.4.
Tertullian, De praescriptione hereticorum 32.2

I am not even Christian and I have enough sense to not be that blind. I don't let subjective hate and anger get in the way of objective research.

Gday,

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
This is the most common and uninterresting off-topic argument which always seems to surface from parrots who somehow have to say this every time they post in this forum. Sorry, not very impressed.

But tragically,
you cannot cite any EVIDENCE for your claims.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Well, the writer or mediator of the Gospel of John claims to have witnessed the long walk and the crucifiction,

No he didn't.
The unknown writer of G.John did NOT claim to witness ANYTHING.

Some LATER writer ADDED a passage in the THIRD person
("WE know HIS testimony is true ...")
That is NOT a 1st person claim to have witnessed anything.

There is NO claim in G.John to have personally witnessed Jesus.

There is NO claim in ANY Gospel to have personally witnessed Jesus.

There is NO claim in ANY NT writing to have personally witnessed Jesus
(except the forged 2 Peter.)


That's why you didn't post any evidence - just the usual CLAIMS and BELIEFS - but never any actual EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
John 21:24 This is the [beloved] disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

Like I said -
A passage ADDED by someone ELSE in the THIRD person.

That is NOT a claim to have witnessed Jesus.
It's plain and simple language.
It's a BELIEF written LATER by someone ELSE.

Or do you think the word "WE" means "I" ?
Do you think the word "HIS" means "MY" ?
Please explain.

So - like I said -
there is NOT ONE 1st hand claim to have personally met Jesus in ANY of the NT books (except the FORGED 2nd century 2 Peter.)


Kap

Gday,

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The Apostles did leave a historical trail,

The apostles themselves left NO history.
Which is why you failed AGAIN to cite any.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
especially with their students who became various officials in the early church.

NONE of the "official" EVER met anyone who met Jesus.
Which is why you FAILED again to cite any evidence.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Paul's letters date back to the time Paul was alive. Paul met Peter and talks of Peter.

So?
Paul did NOT claim to have personally met Jesus.
paul did NOT say Peter had met Jesus - in fact he makes it clear that Peter and all the others merely had a VISION of Jesus - so what?

So far you have NOT cited ONE SINGLE claim by ANYONE to have personally met Jesus, or ANYONE else who met Jesus - NOT ONE.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Polycarp, the disciple of the Apostle John, is a well recorded historical figure.

Polycarp did NOT meet Jesus or claim to.
Polycarp did NOT claim to have met a disciple of Jesus.

Are you having trouble grasping my point?

NOT ONE Christian claimed to have met Jesus, or anyone who met Jesus (apart from the forged 2 Peter.)

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I didn't cite any evidence, why don't you research Polycarp? You show me where Polycarp didn't exist.

I HAVE researched Polycarp - it appears you have not.
Polycarp DID exist - please PAY ATTENTION to what I write.
Polycarp did NOT meet Jesus or claim to.
Polycarp did NOT claim to have met a disciple of Jesus.

NOT ONE Early Christian claims to have personally met Jesus, or anyone who met Jesus.

I KNOW there are CLAIMS and BELIEFS about people meeting Jesus or his followers - so what?

So far you have FAILED again and again to cite ONE SINGLE claim by a Christian to have personally met Jesus or anyone who met him.

Because there IS none (apart from the forged 2nd century 2 Peter.)

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
What scholars?

The vast majority - do you KNOW any names?
Brown, Fitzmyer, Crossan, Schnelle, Aland etc. - all the big names.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I hate all caps. I cited Polycarp.

Polycarp does NOT claim to have met Jesus or anyone who met him.
Which is why you keep failing to cite any such evidence.

I am NOT asking for CLAIMS and BELIEFS of later Christians.

I am saying there is NOT ONE single claim in early Christian writing to have personally met Jesus.

Which is why you keep posting CLAIMS and BELIEFS - because there is NO such evidence.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
His students did:
Irenaeus, Adversus Haeresis, (c. 180) iii.3.4, v.33.4.
Tertullian, De praescriptione hereticorum 32.2

Just like I said - all you have is CLAIMS and BELIEFS from later believers.

But NOT ONE single claim to any Christian to have personally met Jesus or anyone who met him.

NOT ONE.
As we can see from your repeated failure tp cite even ONE.
(Not counting the forged 2nd century 2 peter.)

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I am not even Christian and I have enough sense to not be that blind. I don't let subjective hate and anger get in the way of objective research.

I did the research - I found there is NOT ONE single claim in early Christian writing to have personally met Jesus (not counting 2 Peter.)

Please don't keep preaching BELIEFS and CLAIMS of Christians - either :
* post a 1st hand claim
or
* admit there are NO such claims
(not counting 2 peter.)


Kap

Originally posted by Kapyong
Gday,

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
This is the most common and uninterresting off-topic argument which always seems to surface from parrots who somehow have to say this every time they post in this forum. Sorry, not very impressed.

But tragically,
you cannot cite any EVIDENCE for your claims.

And neither can you it seems, claiming every historical evidence is false and later additions to existing works doesn't proove a damn thing.

Originally posted by Kapyong

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Well, the writer or mediator of the Gospel of John claims to have witnessed the long walk and the crucifiction,

No he didn't.
The unknown writer of G.John did NOT claim to witness ANYTHING.

Some LATER writer ADDED a passage in the THIRD person
("WE know HIS testimony is true ...")
That is NOT a 1st person claim to have witnessed anything.

Unless you have noticed the writer/source of the stories published in this Gospel is supposed to be the Beloved Disciple (Mary Magdalene, Lazarus or John? Anyway, one of his students), and throughout the book he relates to himself in the third person. And this was a common way to comment history back then. Apparently he never seems to mention himself by name, unless a curious passage about Lazarus is the key to the mystery, but the other Gospels names all the Apostles, and the only Apostle not mentioned by name is in the Golden Gospel is John, so most biblical scholars believe it is him. But Jesjuah had many more disciples beyond the twelve apostles. One of them being Mary Magdalene and another and also the only disciple "Jesjuah loves" in the written text in the Book of "John"

[edit on 5/7/2010 by Neo Christian Mystic]

I enjoy hearing different perspectives. I do wonder sometimes about the people posting here sometimes. What I found below could serve as a crude but effective litmus test:

www.dinosauradventureland.com...
Adventure Land: Creationist Theme Park
A theme park that will teach you and your children how man rode around on dinosaurs just a few thousand years ago.

I'm always fascinated by those who agree with this. It can be a real time saver. ;-)

"Have all Christians been duped? Evidense here."
There are obviously some extremely intelligent people that have posted on this thread. There also some angry, bitter people that have posted here as well.
It is amazing to me how people flock to anything written that tries to debunk the Bible. Many text have been quoted and cited. Many authors both historical and modern have been referenced. But, few if any, have talked about personal experience. Personally, I can say, based on personal experience that I have not been duped.
Yes, I am a Christian and a fundamentalist at that. I have had a personal experience with Jesus Christ. I can give witness to three healings; two broken bones and one terminal liver disease. The healing in the liver disease is documented at a hospital in Seattle, Wa. I have been spoken to audilbly by what I believe to be either an angle or Christ Himself on one occasion. I have seen at least one person, maybe two who were demon possessed. While counseling with people, I have had the Lord open their hearts in front of me and as a result I was able to tell the person there proplem and guide them through it. But, most of all, I know what I know in my heart. I am aware that mere "feelings" will not impress anyone and that is fine, I'm not trying to impress. I know the peace that I feel in my heart and the faith that I have in God. I know that He loves me in spite of all my human frailties. I know that it is Christ, The Son of God, that died on the cross and rose again the third day. It was not Barrabus, another desciple, or anyone else. Why do I know this? Because no one else's blood would have paid the price for my sins. I could not be a Christian because of the blood of an Apostle.
I have heard/felt God speak in my heart on many, many things. I have seen His love and His mercy repeated time and time again through the failures of my life. I have experienced the joy of His love and forgiveness many times. If I need Him, He is there, if I fell Him, He remains.
The creation cannot comprehend the Creator. Many philosophers, thinkers, intellects, scientist, ect., have tried to explain God away. But God remains. All the so called "proofs" and writings doing away with God have come and gone, and will continue to come and go, yet God remains. How many hunderes of posts and discussions are on ATS both for and against God? If He does not exist, then why waste your gray matter trying to explain Him away? Why not use it to try and find a cure for cancer? I honestly believe that many of you who continuously try to explain God away would not be doing so if you were at peace in your own mind of His non-existense.
Seeashrink

reply to post by Kapyong


You are putting words in my mouth and I do not like that. Objective people don't do things like that. They read objectively and that is something you are not doing.

I never claimed Paul or Polycarp met Jesus.
My point was that they met apostles.

Irenaeus was the student of Polycarp and wrote about his teacher being the student of John.

Do you think Christianity just emerged by spontaneous manifestation? That Jesus and the apostles did not exist, but the religion just miraculously appeared out of nowhere. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Christianity as a sect was spreading fast by the end of the 1st century. Paul's Epistles date back to around 60 CE.
The Roman historian Tacitus refers to Christians in his Annals, being involved in the burning of Rome in 64 CE during the reign of Nero.

Cults and sects establish themselves around charismatic leaders. The various gnostic sects all had such leaders. Most are not well recorded in history so I guess you wouldn't think they existed.

How about Zoroaster? Lao Tzu? Confucius? Buddha? Mohammed?

None of them have much outside of religious writings. So did their religions spontaneously generate too?

In order for Christianity to get started some charismatic person before 60 CE went around preaching to people. His followers grew enough that by 96 CE there were enough Christians around that Rome recognized they were not Jews and stopped making them pay the tax the Jews paid.

Religions do not appear by abiogenesis. Someone always starts them.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And neither can you it seems, claiming every historical evidence is false and later additions to existing works doesn't proove a damn thing.

No,
just pointing out that Christian CLAIMS and BELIEFS are not evidence.

If YOU want to make a claim, then YOU have to support it with evidence.

Preaching what Christians beleive is only good in CHURCH, not here.


Kap

Gday,

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Unless you have noticed the writer/source of the stories published in this Gospel is supposed to be the Beloved Disciple (Mary Magdalene, Lazarus or John? Anyway, one of his students),

That's what Christians BELIEVE, yes.
But no evidence for it.
It's clear to modern NT scholars that the Gospels were NOT written by anyone who met Jesus.

G.John talks about the expulsion from the synagogues - a ridiculous and obvious anachronims.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
and throughout the book he relates to himself in the third person.

Rubbish.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And this was a common way to comment history back then.

Bollocks.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Apparently he never seems to mention himself by name, unless a curious passage about Lazarus is the key to the mystery, but the other Gospels names all the Apostles, and the only Apostle not mentioned by name is in the Golden Gospel is John, so most biblical scholars believe it is him.

No they don't.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
But Jesjuah had many more disciples beyond the twelve apostles. One of them being Mary Magdalene and another and also the only disciple "Jesjuah loves" in the written text in the Book of "John"

More BELIEFS.
No evidence.

Kap

Gday,

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by Kapyong

 

I never claimed Paul or Polycarp met Jesus.
My point was that they met apostles.

So-
like I said -
NOT ONE single person claimed to have met Jesus, or anyone who met him.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Irenaeus was the student of Polycarp and wrote about his teacher being the student of John.

But John did NOT say that,
Polycarp did NOT say that.

Same old, same old - some LATER Christians made a CLAIM.

So-
like I said -
NOT ONE single person claimed to have met Jesus, or anyone who met him.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Do you think Christianity just emerged by spontaneous manifestation? That Jesus and the apostles did not exist, but the religion just miraculously appeared out of nowhere. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

No that's not what I said.
Didn't you JUST complain about putting words in people's mouth?
Hypocrite.

Did Scientology start with Xenu?
Hmmm?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Christianity as a sect was spreading fast by the end of the 1st century. Paul's Epistles date back to around 60 CE.
The Roman historian Tacitus refers to Christians in his Annals, being involved in the burning of Rome in 64 CE during the reign of Nero.

So?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
Cults and sects establish themselves around charismatic leaders. The various gnostic sects all had such leaders. Most are not well recorded in history so I guess you wouldn't think they existed.

Yup.
Christianity started with Paul.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
How about Zoroaster? Lao Tzu? Confucius? Buddha? Mohammed?

Myths - except Mohamd who probably existed.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
None of them have much outside of religious writings. So did their religions spontaneously generate too?

You're a creationist, right?
No-one here mentioned "spontaneous generation".
Christianity started with Paul and others.
Jesus was a myth.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
In order for Christianity to get started some charismatic person before 60 CE went around preaching to people. His followers grew enough that by 96 CE there were enough Christians around that Rome recognized they were not Jews and stopped making them pay the tax the Jews paid.

Yup.
Paul - who left a lot of evidence.
But Jesus - NO evidence at all.


Kap

reply to post by Kapyong


Excellent! I have enjoyed reading this thread tremendously. Makes me realize how my namesake must have pulled his remaining hair out at times. Well done Kapyong! Many blessings

reply to post by Kapyong

No that's not what I said.
Didn't you JUST complain about putting words in people's mouth?
Hypocrite.

Hypocrite for asking questions?

I asked if you thought Christianity just came out of nowhere. Then I asked do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

I want to hear your vision of events.

Did Scientology start with Xenu?
Hmmm?

Xenu was the bad guy of space opera.

Scientology had a charismatic founder, in the form of L. Ron Hubbard.

So?

My point was that it, the Christian sect, had been growing prior to 60 CE.

This would place the foundation of the sect before Paul's epistles. It spread across the Empire by that time, all the way to the capitol, Rome.

Yup.
Christianity started with Paul.

So in your vision, Paul is the charismatic founder? Based on what? Deductive reasoning or do you have evidence?

Why not Peter?

You're a creationist, right?
No-one here mentioned "spontaneous generation".
Christianity started with Paul and others.
Jesus was a myth.

Me a creationist? No, I'm not one of the people who think the world was made 6000 years ago and the atmosphere was made of pink metallic hydrogen.

I wanted to know your vision of events.
So who are these others besides Paul?

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
In the Koran Arab. "Issa" or Lat. "Jesus" and Heb. Jesjuah was not crucified, but [fell] the person we know as Simon of Kyrene was killed in his place. According to the Koran, "Issa" lived to be a 120 years old.

Where exactly in the Qur'an did you read this?
Apparently you have another Qur'an, different from all of us...

NOWHERE in the Qur'an does it say that Simon of Kyrene was crucified instead of Jesus (Yeshua).
In fact, if you are referring 4:157, it doesn't even say that ANYONE was crucified INSTEAD of him - the exact words are "it was made to appear to them" as if they had crucified him.

This, further, can mean that it was made to appear to Jesus' enemies that they put him on the cross, while they actually DID NOT,

or

they did put him on the cross but they did not KILL HIM - meaning he was still ALIVE when taken off the cross.

In any case, God says that he SAVED him from his enemies - just like the New Testament says (after Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane to be saved, the apostles later claim that his prayer was HEARD from God who saved him).
The problem is, this "little nasty detail" about his prayer and God ANSWERING his prayer is always "left out" in christian sermons.

And the other point of the OP - NOWHERE in the Qur'an does it say that Jesus lived for 120 years.

As already stated, God says that he took him to himself (to heaven) to save him from his enemies.

If you wanna speculate on this, as in: where is he now, is he alive etc. The common islamic scholarly view is that he is in heaven, alive, and that he must come back one day, because he has to live his life to his full and then die, since "Every living soul shall taste death." (3:185).



[edit on 7/7/2010 by skajkingdom]

Any person that actually did read the bible should know most things are scientifically impossible.

Noach Ark is impossible to build, with only the tools of that time.
A wooden ship that size would never reach structural integrity to actually "float", let alone go anywhere with a huge load onboard, and endure big waves.


Where's the fishies?
To collect 2 samples(male & female) of every species of animal is impossible to. Not only are there animals that don’t have a specific sex(which they had not idea about then), there are thousands if not millions of fresh-water animals(fish & mammals & reptiles & amphibians) that could not have survived the flood.(Noach did not have any fresh-water aquariums on his boat)


Suicide by incest problem.
There is no way AT ALL, that every living being that exists today, is a result of this imaginary world-wide gathering of all life on a ship, a few thousand years ago.
Not just DNA show us this is impossible, but also many more things.
For the animals to survive, they would inevitably have had to have sex with one of their relatives, which often leads to disfiguring or failed births.
For most species of animals, this could not have happened.
Most animals need a varied amount of external DNA for procreation (to avoid getting duplicate DNA).
In simpler words.

Animals that were only able to procreate by having sex with relatives would have died out quiet fast.


Starving animals!
For all those animals being on the ship for a extended period of time must have been nasty.
Even with a modern day, steel build ship it would be impossible to store ALL the food for ALL the animals for such a long time.
Noach would even have had problems if he only took food for a few animals.
don’t forget that adult elephants eat about 650 pounds or 300 kilo's of food EACH DAY!
Just the grass itself could not have been fresh for that long.
And almost all herbivore animals need large amounts of green food, to get the nutrients they need to stay alive and healthy.Most herbivores need about a third,up to half of its own body-weight in food(grass) each day.


Not enough Water!
There is not, and never has been enough water to completely flood the entire earth.