Is Hell really a place of torture?

reply to post by Nosred


i've come to find that if logically it doesn't fit together, then there are parts that probably aren't true. that's not to say anyhting about you personally, op, but the theory itsefl may deserve some rethinking.

AND i realize that it is generally a societally accepted take on things, but then that brings under scrutiny the common sense of general society? maybe?

reply to post by Goddy


dude its a good idea, but it stems from the notion that there's an entity in existence who remains outside of god's power.

it just isn't true. like you said, the god and the devil are most certainly on the same team. "satan" (or whatever) isn't directly against us, he's the other team captain, if that makes sense. you have to assume that entity's of such awe-inspiring power are aware and operate on levels well above ours. so if you HAD to view god and satan as something, view them as proctors to this learning experience of ours.


we are ALL on the same team in the end. as individuals, we just get to choose what our team of one stands for.

im willing to go further if anyone is curious or interested in what I have to say

Satan wants people to be happy and have as much fun as they can. its God would makes people & satan suffer. and and the end just so they have learn a lesson. god kills them all????

from what I see from the Bible.
you Rot in your grave until some angle blows a trumpet.
then you have a test. unless you to far evil.
pritey much god does not give you much choice. beg on your belly or go to hell.

god! can not even keep his angles under control.
his best angles turns against him?
WHY? what did you find out?
and a all knowing god let it happen.


sorry I am in a bad mood.

reply to post by CSquared288


Please continue..this is something I am pretty lost on. I keep searching and searching for some kind of idea but nothing fits. Some seem just over published like new age . Some just seem to much of a control measure. Organized religion..
But I would really like something I could at least feel not so hypocritical about having the belief in something more then this world, reality, life has to offer.

So if your theory is something other. I would love to hear it and why. Not asking for proof or links but just what your thinking..

Thanks

Thanks

reply to post by Nosred




Hell is not a place. It's a state of consciousness. Maybe one might consider it a state of mind. Hell is a length of time, in a timeless existance, where essences, that were once in a physical body, consider all they did in that body. All the things they thought about, the things the actually did to others and all the things they could have done. There is no escape from hell, unitl the spirit decides to acknowledge the wrongs done to others and to their own spirits and determine to try things over again, hopefully doing better the next time.

Jesus is said to have spent time in hell, as well. And I'd wager that "God" spends time in hell constantly. Just my opinion. Of course.

reply to post by buddha


In a bad mood, I understand that state of mind, for sure. I just suggest you not think of hell as a Christian concept. It's older than that. Hades and all that sort of thing. Pay the Ferryman and such ideas that precede Christianity as well as the ancient Hebrews religion.

there is no eternal torment for souls, unless the very souls that experience it choose to remain in that "hell".

Check out the interesting and silly punishments for humans according to their sins of the 7 deadly sins. LOL. this is manmade. Even the deadly sins were adjusted at one time. LOL. To better control people and make the folks that had control feel better about themselves.

There are NO deadly sins. Sorry, got off topic here, I think.

We all are energy and part of the "creator". We go on forever. However, lol, I do consider something I read in the Bible, about if God turns his face from his creation it will cease to exist. I can live with that, and cease to exist with that. Like I have choice? Hmmmmmmmmmm.......maybe I do..............

buddha,

as as wise and learned as your supposed to be, you sure place a lot of stock in a text written by other people


'other people' being the main point


jeez everyone is under the impression that god just dropped us here, completely at the mercy of those who came before us.

whether you want to believe me or (this isnt just directed at buddha) not, you are not powerless in this existence. Your intentions, thoughts, emotions, actions register as frequencies which directly affect our universe.

di
rect
ly.

positive intentions, actions, etc beget postive outcomes. same goes for the negatives.

EVERYTHING is a choice. if you are sad or angry, it's because you are choosing to be sad or angry.

uhh let me see if i can give a good example:

so youve come to find out that your best friend of 10 years stole hundreds of dollars from you, didnt tell you about it, and had no intention of paying you back.
you can choose to be mad, and waste your time thinking about all the money you lost and the potential purchases you're missing out on, or you can choose to accept it as what is and operate from that point forward.

YOU DONT HAVE TO GET MAD.

You can stay upbeat and positive and make your decision on how you'll deal with the situation.

maybe you'll just let him have the money cause its no such a big deal to you, maybe you say okay, we can't be friends anymore. who knows? who cares?

next time you get mad, pay attention. You can literally feel the vibrationary difference (if you choose to acknowledge it). choose to be happy, itll do wonders for your life I SWEAR.

ON my friends, family, and my eternal existence promised by god I F***ING SWEAR.


chase only what you want and NOTHING ELSE.
THAT is the point to this existence.

I F***ING SWEAR.

Originally posted by Nosred
I was thinking one day about Hell and I came to a conclusion that got me thinking. If Satan's ultimate goal is to tempt people into sin so they will go to Hell why does he punish the sinners? Wouldn't it be more intelligent to reward the sinners? He should know that the knowledge of Hell being a bad place might deter some would-be sinners. Why doesn't Lucifer make Hell a paradise?

Because Satan hates the creation of God, so he temps people so he can stray as many people away from God so he can kill off as many people as he can. He was thrown out of heaven and then God created us, so he wants to get back at God by destroying his creation.

reply to post by navione


hey i got you, im a little drunk though. ill give you a better written explanation of my beliefs tomorrow than what i could tonight

Originally posted by Nosred
I was thinking one day about Hell and I came to a conclusion that got me thinking. If Satan's ultimate goal is to tempt people into sin so they will go to Hell why does he punish the sinners? Wouldn't it be more intelligent to reward the sinners? He should know that the knowledge of Hell being a bad place might deter some would-be sinners. Why doesn't Lucifer make Hell a paradise?

Hell as most people think of it does not exist.

The first thing is to stop calling it hell. There are three different concepts in the Gospel and the Epistles that are translated as hell, but in fact they are all very different.

In the Greek the three concepts are Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus.

Hades is a Greek analog to the Hebrew Sheol.
This is the state of the dead. Sometimes its thought of as a state of sleep or unconsciousness after death and prior to the resurrection.

Gehenna in some ways is like the modern concept of hell, in that it involves fire. Gehenna is the "Lake of Fire" and described as a place of ultimate destruction. The fire is described as being like sulphur, but this has to be placed into the context of the the time it was written. Sulphur at that time was a divine incense used to destroy impurities. It was one of the first fungicides and insecticides in its fumigator form. In the Tanakh, Gehenna is considered a place where garbage, waste, and refuse were burnt in what could be called a lake of fire.

So its not a place of torture. Its a place of destruction. Its like the recycle bin on your desktop. Its not ruled by Satan, Satan rules the earth from a lower heaven. Demons don't abide in Gehenna. They abide on earth and in other places. Gehenna is like a black hole, everything that enters it is annihilated.

Tartarus isn't Hades or Gehenna. Tartarus is an analog to the Hebrew Tehom, the Great Deep or the Abyss.

The Abyss or Tehom existed before creation based on the text in Genesis. It is a "place" outside creation. It is used as a place of exile and imprisonment, but not for humans. The Bible mentions its use for two types of beings, fallen angels and unclean spirits (demons).

It is a place of temporary exile and imprisonment, but is apparently quite horrible. In the Gospel, when Jesus exorcises "demons" from a possessed person, the "demons" beg and plead to not be sent to the Abyss.

I have no idea what makes it so horrifying, the Bible doesn't say. You don't have to worry about it though, humans can't go there.

The other part of this misconception is the role and purpose of Satan.
Satan as the earth's prince regent has a role in prosecuting and making cases against humanity before G-d. Replace the word "sinner" with criminal and it will make a little more sense. My personal opinion is that he is trying to make a case for humanity's extermination and possible annihilation, while regarding humanity on the same level as pigs and dogs.

The Bible doesn't exactly say why he does what he does, but the Book of Job makes it clear he does it with G-d's authority.

IMO if a person decides to worship satan then he must be against god, therefore his idea of heaven would be in hell and his hell would be to end up in gods heaven............. hmmmmmm ...... heaven is hell and hell is heaven , thats deep,

reply to post by CSquared288


I caught a pretty good gist of it on your reply to Buddha. But when you have time to go further into detail.

Thanks

If I remember correct sheol is for the Jews the pace where everybody goes.
I understand that in Judaism there is no devil or the devil works with God to test us.

The devil was cast down to Earth and is called prince for a reason. As he is ruler of the lands . So that would suggest we are already in hell.

The 144.000 are the chosen ones that God picked that are good souls and have already earned their way to heaven.

The book of Jesaia also states that God is the creator of all good and evil. God has created all.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
If I remember correct sheol is for the Jews the pace where everybody goes.
I understand that in Judaism there is no devil or the devil works with God to test us.

The devil was cast down to Earth and is called prince for a reason. As he is ruler of the lands . So that would suggest we are already in hell.

The 144.000 are the chosen ones that God picked that are good souls and have already earned their way to heaven.

The book of Jesaia also states that God is the creator of all good and evil. God has created all.

Sheol is more like a state of being than a "place". Its when G-d removes the Breath of Life and the body turns to dust. Our consciousness shuts down.

Your right about Satan acting under G-d's authority. Satan hasn't been cast out yet. Jesus makes numerous comments about Satan eventually falling.

Revelations goes even further in depth, with a vision of Satan's actual fall and the collapse of the powers and principalities.

The 144,000 are the members of Israel who are sealed as bond servants or slaves of G-d.

[edit on 4/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by Nosred
I was thinking one day about Hell and I came to a conclusion that got me thinking. If Satan's ultimate goal is to tempt people into sin so they will go to Hell why does he punish the sinners? Wouldn't it be more intelligent to reward the sinners? He should know that the knowledge of Hell being a bad place might deter some would-be sinners. Why doesn't Lucifer make Hell a paradise?

The Greek word 'Ghenna' translated 'hell' in the New Testament was Jerusalem's garbage dump.

Worms ate the refuse and fires burned off the methane...
...it is a metaphor...
...it was meant to convey the idea that unless the 'spirit' of a human is united to the 'Spirit' they will be 'put out with the garbage'.

The idea of an eternally burning hell did not originate in Hebrew thought...
...but was based on ideas of mans post-mortem state that originated with Homer and later developed by Plato...
...later introduced into Christian thinking as the church became progressively more Gentile...
...then popularized by Dante and exploited by prelates as a tool to increase church membership.
...dwarfed by other issues the Protestant Reformers simply inherited the idea.

There is, however, one example of 'eternal fire' open to scientific evaluation.

A description of an event was recorded in Jude 1:7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrha were destroyed by 'aionios pur', literally 'eternal fire'.


Gomorrha can be seen on Google Earth at 31 19 38 N 35 22 36 E...
Sodom at 31°11'47.62"N 35°23'47.34"E

There is no 'eternal fire' at this location now...

So the term 'eternal fire' must mean 'complete destruction' by one who is 'eternal' and not a reference to a fire that never stops burning.

More here...
Hell on (Google) Earth...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Servants or slaves ? Somehow that sounds uncomfortable.

I never heard that he still has the falling ahead of him. Satan that is.
How cruel then if it is already planned up front.

That does not compute.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

Servants or slaves ? Somehow that sounds uncomfortable.

I never heard that he still has the falling ahead of him. Satan that is.
How cruel then if it is already planned up front.

That does not compute.

The Greek word used in Revelations is doulous, which means slave or bond servant. The word Muslim in a way means the same thing, a servant or slave of Allah (G-d). Note I'm not saying they are Muslims, though who knows.

John 12:31 mentions that Satan will be cast out when the world is judged.



[edit on 4/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Weird construction, if you would ask me.

here's what I said on another thread:

Let's take for example “hellfire” – this exact word does not appear in the Bible yet it is believed by many to exist because of the words “lake of fire”. As I’ve already explained in my previous post – such a literal place does not exist.

Here’s where the confusion came from:

The word “hell” is a mistranslation of the Greek word “Hades” (Heb: Sheol) – literally means “pit, gravedom”. Gehena was also mistranslated into “hell” – but Gehena in Bible times is a dumped yard in the Valley of Hinnom where garbage and bodies of dead criminals/animals were dumped and burned. The fire was constantly maintained by a supply of sulfur. Thus anything that is thrown in Gehena (lake of fire) was completely burned never to be recovered. Interesting to note also are the maggots and worms in there – anything that ends up on the sides of the dump yard are eaten by these worms. So in those days if a dead body in thrown in there, they understood it as not deserving a proper burial – unwanted. When Jesus used this location – Gehena – the people understood what he meant – figuratively speaking – anyone who is thrown in the “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” will forever be destroyed, will never be resurrected – thus it is called the second death (Rev 21:8). And no they are not tortured as many believed – they just seize to exist.

....

Let me expand it further ....

Note also what Jesus said to the religious leaders of his day:

“Adroitly you set aside the commandment of God in order to retain your tradition. . . . Thus you make the word of God invalid by your tradition.” (Mark 7:6-13)

It is the ‘churches’ that transformed the traditions of men into ‘a’ “word of God”. And one of these traditions is the doctrine of the “hellfire / eternal torment”. It was used back then (not as much today) to force people into submission. History gives us all the evidence how this was done. It was used to force and scare people into submission. With what result? People started fearing God for the wrong reasons, turned God into tyrant, unloving, out to get you. It also turned many people away from a loving God – case in point –you Titen (of which I don’t fault you)

Imagine the lies this created to portray a loving God into a monster. Unjustifiable!

Imagine also the powers that the ‘churches’ got because of this unscriptural teaching. For hundreds of years people paid a lot of money to the ‘churches’ year to year believing that a “priest or whatever title they have” is able to intercede with God to save the “souls” of their dead loved ones from “hellfire / purgatory – or whatever place they think they are in”.

What’s the point of Jesus dying for us sinners then? What’s the point of the resurrection that Jesus promised to those who died?

On the logic side – the “eternal torment – hellfire” doctrine does not make sense.

Think about it man – would you punish your child who committed a mistake (sin) by grabbing his hand and placing it on a hot stove? Would you call that justice? If we as human beings don’t agree with such punishment – how much more it is with God who is the very essence of Love. Remember God suffered a lot when he witnessed his only begotten son being slapped, spit at, punch, ridiculed, and beaten to a pulp then finally nailed to die as a common criminal. He was able to hold his anger during that time because it must be done – to save us sinners (John 3:16, 1 John 4:8).

This doctrine – “hellfire/eternal torment” makes a mockery of that sacrifice.

Historical facts:

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581)

Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960,...


Wiki has a good explenation where this doctrine came from:
en.wikipedia.org...

Hell is real. What our mamas never told us is that we are there. Our world is riddled with death, destruction, attack, loss scarcity, pain - these are the conditions of hell. Everything comes here to be born, decay and die. We continually look outside of ourselves for anything that will make the fear and pain go away for a while. A new "special" relationship, a new toy, a new distraction, a chemical fix --- they all "work" a little for a little while and then it's on to the next thing or person. Despair/loss of hope being the inevitable outcome.

The next truth that mama never told us is that God doesn't send anyone to hell. We send ourselves.

Even in hell God has not abandoned us. We can awaken from this dream of separation from our Source.