The Atheists Nightmare

The word God is not what it attempts to describe, an argument is useless if the subject matter is as nebulous as "god or not?". In my opinion a single word fails to matriculate the whole notion of "god".

I believe someone who would describe themselves as an atheist and another who describes themselves can have the same exact thought process but it's just a different perspective, similar to how you can view an object from one angle but one step to the right or left and it can appear to be a different object.

I understand this picture cannot be applied to billions of human beings but I think it is relevant.

reply to post by Conclusion


Ah, I'm sorry, you did not mention Pascal's Wager. That was directed at someone else, hehe.

Yes you automatically know it right? How do you think you know without having to be told it.

I do not automatically know being kind to another is the best possible way to be. I discover this through observation with the world. I see that negative things happen to society and the growth of society when one is not kind to another, and society prospers when one is kind to another.

I wish for society to prosper, so that we can all learn more about our reality and ourselves, and therefore I think being kind is the best way to be.

I do not need someone to tell me. I just need to observe to see it is true.

It is from a personal experience that I had.

You had a personal experience? Can you say without a shadow of a doubt that this experience was from the Christian God and could not possibly have any other explanation?

If you can, then you are completely justified in your belief. Your proof of God was your personal experience.

However, another person's experience is only proof to the person experiencing, not to anyone else.

So the question that God is the real one is still unanswered for me.

reply to post by HSDA83


Thanks for the kind response!

Choosing to be on the safe side will be the first step on this.

I cannot honestly say I agree with this. I believe the first step should be to believe in nothing, and change your belief as evidence comes forth.

I do not think the first step to proving that magical unicorns live in Saturn's core is the first step in learning. I think the first steps in proving such a claim is to research and if proof comes forward, then you are justified in believing.

Kind regards

We can then notice there is one natural law, even if on the unconscious level, about good or bad.

Then we fall back to the same hole we had a few pages earlier. Trying to prove the existence or non existence of god...

Are we reading the whole thread before adding material?

reply to post by HSDA83


Thank you for the kind reply!

I was here during the earlier pages of the thread, but really do not have time to read it all again. Very sorry! If I could create more time, I certainly would!

Trying to prove the existence or non existence of god...

Just my quick opinion on this. One should not have to prove God does not exist. The burden or proof is on the person making the claim.

I can use the magical unicorns living in Saturn's core example again. I do not have to prove that is not true. The person making the claim has to prove that it is.

Kind regards

reply to post by Hitotsumami


Your decisions are based on your observations. You already have a knowledge unto yourself. If your observations agree with that knowledge, you know within yourself that it is right. If what you observe on the outside contradicts what you feel on the inside, what do you do about it?

reply to post by Hitotsumami

All truth out there on the table for all to see.
This thread is very good proof of God

do not think the first step to proving that magical unicorns live in Saturn's core is the first step in learning. I think the first steps in proving such a claim is to research and if proof comes forward, then you are justified in believing.

You have likely heard that it is impossible to prove that God exists. You have heard wrong. Not only can the existence of God be proven, denying the proof undermines rational thought. It is true that God does not need anyone, let alone me, to prove His existence.The existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for denying it. No one needs proof that God exists.
Even the Bible does not argue the existence o9f God.
It assumes we are at least that intelligent.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by Hitotsumami


Ok, then we must then agree on what truth is.
TRUTH is everything that complies with REALITY.
It doesn't mean you must be able to see it.
I don't have a telescope. But it doesn't affect the truth that there are other planets, even if I never saw them.

Have you seen the wind? electricity? god? an unicorn? life?
People have seen other beings, on dreams, drugs, or whatever.
Still it doesn't change the truth of their existence or not.

I'm guessing you already believe in a lot of things that you can not see.

reply to post by Hitotsumami

Just my quick opinion on this. One should not have to prove God does not exist. The burden or proof is on the person making the claim.

What would be proof to you?

In a thread of mine I asked people if they where faced with undeniable proof of the existence of God, ( I meant Christ but I didn't make that part clear enough I think), would they follow them. Some, not all, reported no that they would not for various reasons.

A reason to believe that God exists is that the mathematical probability of life even existing can be said to be impossible. Not only life, but also everything on this planet in order to host life is nearly perfect. So perfect that we are without excuse. The truth of creation is obvious in what we observe.

Romans 1:20 (King James Version)
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Christians in this thread: "God is real, there is proof and if you deny it you are not thinking rationally."

Atheists in this thread: "God isn't real and if you deny this you are not thinking rationally."

Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle?

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by Hitotsumami

 

Your decisions are based on your observations. You already have a knowledge unto yourself. If your observations agree with that knowledge, you know within yourself that it is right. If what you observe on the outside contradicts what you feel on the inside, what do you do about it?

Thank you for the kind reply!

I am afraid I do not completely understand. I do not have any knowledge unto myself before I observe. I base my decisions and my knowledge on my observations.

If I am misunderstanding something, please explain! I do not want to say the wrong thing, hehe.

Kind regards

reply to post by Conclusion


Thanks for the reply!

Hehe, I remember that thread! I was in there!

We basically came to a conclusion that proof to me would be a God who anyone can always come to with questions to determine why what he does is morally true and would always receive an audible answer.

Basically, a God you can experience with all of your senses.

A reason to believe that God exists is that the mathematical probability of life even existing can be said to be impossible. Not only life, but also everything on this planet in order to host life is nearly perfect. So perfect that we are without excuse. The truth of creation is obvious in what we observe.

Life is not impossible. Just extremely improbable. And perhaps the planet is the way it is due to natural explanations that led up to this event. I don't see how a God would need a part in this.

Kind regards.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by Hitotsumami]

reply to post by HSDA83


She seems to have her mind made up already. That's fine unless she's practicing deciet.

Like some other members, there seems to be this fad amoungst them.
Playing inocense of their buff tart. Well I just was really trying to find out about a few things s I couldn't make up my mind about. I guess I will have to wonder for ever now. poor me lost wondering and kicking rocks, sort of thing.
Hope that's not her.

Just in case here's my reminder.


[edit on 11-7-2010 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


I missed a lot of posts! Ah! I will try my best to respond to them quickly!

Thank you for the reply!

You have likely heard that it is impossible to prove that God exists. You have heard wrong. Not only can the existence of God be proven, denying the proof undermines rational thought. It is true that God does not need anyone, let alone me, to prove His existence.The existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for denying it. No one needs proof that God exists.
Even the Bible does not argue the existence o9f God.
It assumes we are at least that intelligent.

I do not think it is impossible to prove God exists. I do not think anything is impossible.

I also do not see how God's existence is obvious. Could you please explain to me why you think God's existence is obvious? Perhaps this could assist me in some way!

reply to post by HSDA83


Thanks for the reply!

TRUTH is everything that complies with REALITY.
It doesn't mean you must be able to see it.

You are very correct! There very well might be a God! He could exist in every way. However, just because he could be, doesn't mean he is.

Have you seen the wind? electricity? god? an unicorn? life?

I have not seen the wind, but I can prove it is so. The wind is the movement of air. How to prove Air exists? You can feel it. You can research it and find that it is made of tiny atoms. Electricity can be seen through lightning, or sparks. I have not experienced God or a unicorn. Life can be proven to exist by seeing and looking and experimenting.

I'm guessing you already believe in a lot of things that you can not see.

Some things! Like China. I have never seen China, but I think it might be there.

The thing is, China, or anything else, is a vastly less extraordinary claim than God is. Also, it is physically possible for me to travel to where China supposedly is to determine if it is real. I cannot do this with God.

Kind regards

[edit on 11-7-2010 by Hitotsumami]

[edit on 11-7-2010 by Hitotsumami]

We're on top5 of "Origins and Creationism Discussion Forum" !!

But if the objective of the thread is to look for evidences, it started as a nightmare and will end as nightmare...

reply to post by Hitotsumami


When I was speaking of a knowledge unto yourself. This might explain it better than I. From the book of Romans.

1For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

reply to post by Hitotsumami


I'm gonna bite .

Think about the fact that you have finger nails and not just fingers.
Look around admit to yourself there is design in everything.
Are there any examples of self designification.
If that's a word? If not well hey it fit ok?

[edit on 11-7-2010 by randyvs]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Hitotsumami

 

All truth out there on the table for all to see.
This thread is very good proof of God

do not think the first step to proving that magical unicorns live in Saturn's core is the first step in learning. I think the first steps in proving such a claim is to research and if proof comes forward, then you are justified in believing.

You have likely heard that it is impossible to prove that God exists. You have heard wrong. Not only can the existence of God be proven, denying the proof undermines rational thought. It is true that God does not need anyone, let alone me, to prove His existence.The existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for denying it. No one needs proof that God exists.
Even the Bible does not argue the existence o9f God.
It assumes we are at least that intelligent.

[edit on 11-7-2010 by randyvs]

"even the bible does not argue the existance of God"

reply to post by Hitotsumami

Life is not impossible. Just extremely improbable. And perhaps the planet is the way it is due to natural explanations that led up to this event. I don't see how a God would need a part in this.

Its the highly improbable part. Once the odds get so high there is not much difference between impossible and improbable. As for it due to natural explanations I have to say that things seemed to be steered toward hosting life. Every ship needs a Captain.

Originally posted by HSDA83
So there's nothing wrong on making a decision "just to be safe". It's a step, before many others.

I guess that mentality explains why 'some' people sided with the Nazis during WWII... No matter the exposition of ideals, the fear of punishment will drive men to forsake their honour.

I would think that God would punish those that chose a safe path based on expedience much worse than those that refute the path honourably.

reply to post by Hitotsumami

I have not seen the wind, but I can prove it is so. The wind is the movement of air. How to prove Air exists? You can feel it. You can research it and find that it is made of tiny atoms. Electricity can be seen through lightning, or sparks. I have not experienced God or a unicorn. Life can be proven to exist by seeing and looking and experimenting.

You forgot one other way to prove things. Experiencing them. We cannot prove that anyone else has a mind. There are some truths that are only self evident.