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posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson
reply to post by _R4t_
 


Well I honestly asked you genuine questions pertaining to your post.

You made the case that without god, there was no need to show concern for fellow human beings thus saying atheists have no reason to not do harm.

I asked you specific questions. I was hoping you would actually give it a try. As for my tactic? Please point me to where I did any such thing.

I am really attempting to understand your stance because according to your logic, all the atheists that are currently NOT smashing windows, stealing, and killing are apparently better people because they are choosing to be good without a thought to your god whereas you explained you rely on his threats to keep you in line.

Whenever you are ready to try and have a real conversation, let me know. Until then, stick with Randy doing the Christian thing of making up stuff and mocking people instead of answering questions. It makes Christianity look awesome to atheists I can assure you.


All I'm saying is i think there's a link between the decline of religious belief which collaterally gave rise to lower ethic and moral behaviors...

i605.photobucket.com...

Took the graph from google and removed the part prior to 1980 to base things in 1980 since one of the graph doesnt go prior to that year




posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 02:14 AM
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Most Athiests I have run into don't just "not believe" They all go on the "attack" against God, whom they claim is some magic old guy up in the clouds... I mean, why put an identity and a name to something they don't believe in? If they simply don't believe in anything, it sure seems funny to me that they are always trolling all the religious threads with vehement attacks on people that do believe in a God and an afterlife..

I thought that maybe it was more convenient for me to think that way at one time, because then I didn't need to worry about how badly I lived my life... That is until one day when I was taken away in spirit and found myself standing before Christ. He told me that His Father had given me a place in his kingdom, but that I was not doing my part. I couldn't think of anything to say except That I had no excuse and could do better... Satan was there and was sneering at me the whole time, he kept saying to Christ that I was useless and wasn't worth the time of day... I became angry at that and laughed at him and said I wasn't afraid of him, and right away He became more menacing and morphed into a more vicious looking thing. And I looked at Christ and said "oops" my mistake, please help me, and he said "how can you do it?" I said I can do it, I won't forget this...

Then I was back home again... It was very real experience to me and I haven't ever told anyone about it till now...

Since then I have always felt that God is always near me..

Some people that may read this that also want to believe, or on the fence about it just might be encouraged about this true story.. It isn't a joke, and it is not made up.. All it took for me to know for sure that he exists was to never stop searching and seeking him out in the world.. maybe that is why he came and rescued me.

The biggest thing I learned from this experience was that humans are very small and fragile and definitely need help most of the time, like babies. For me, it is good to know there really is a God who loves. You just have to ask and not be afraid to believe.

Peace



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by _R4t_
All I'm saying is i think there's a link between the decline of religious belief which collaterally gave rise to lower ethic and moral behaviors...


Yeah, I got all that. I asked you SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR POST BECAUSE...

I wanted you to answer THOSE.


i605.photobucket.com...

Took the graph from google and removed the part prior to 1980 to base things in 1980 since one of the graph doesnt go prior to that year


Awesome graph of nothing. That is my point. I want to challenge the logic YOU INTRODUCED with what you said. The reason being is that you are making crazy claims not based in reality. Either all atheists are running around killing and stealing or they are all not. Even your graph does not do anything to take away the fact that criminals still come in religious varieties as well as non-religious varieties. Either atheism leaves you with no morals or not.

SO, CAN YOU ACTUALLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I ASKED YOU?

Or have you realized the huge flaw in your claim?



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by alienreality
 


You have roaming mobs of atheists attacking you? Most Christians I know that complain about atheists attacking them typically start the first offensive. Like this thread.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 02:53 AM
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Originally posted by alienreality
Most Athiests I have run into don't just "not believe" They all go on the "attack" against God, whom they claim is some magic old guy up in the clouds... I mean, why put an identity and a name to something they don't believe in? If they simply don't believe in anything, it sure seems funny to me that they are always trolling all the religious threads with vehement attacks on people that do believe in a God and an afterlife..


You are responding in a thread written by a Christian with the sole purpose of attacking atheists. You did miss that did you not? Are you really suggesting that responding to an attack is actually making the attack? PS, we did not give the Christian god an identity, Christians did, silly. I do not believe in Santa Claus either but I still know his name when I see a picture or someone asks who the Christmas myth is about. So when a Christian attacks atheists, how do you suggest we respond and how do you suggest we refer to the god we do not believe in but has been mentioned by name by the attacker?


I thought that maybe it was more convenient for me to think that way at one time, because then I didn't need to worry about how badly I lived my life...


That is insane. It frightens me that people think that without a god to punish you, anything you do is ok. Have you no sense of ethics on your own? If you lose a loved one, do you not mourn? Do you really need a god to remind you that killing someone else's loved one would make them mourn too?

This sounds a lot like the anti-gay preachers who keep getting caught having gay sex. They ALWAYS say they strayed from God. So...the urge to have gay sex is always there, you just have to stay close to God to keep from acting on it?

So you, the urge to live badly was there until you imagined a sky daddy to whoop ya?


That is until one day when I was taken away in spirit and found myself standing before Christ. He told me that His Father had given me a place in his kingdom, but that I was not doing my part. I couldn't think of anything to say except That I had no excuse and could do better...


The same thing happened to me except it was completely different. I was raised properly and have empathy. I also realize that no matter what I would like, I am part of a society and that in order for my life to be pleasurable, there are certain norms I must adhere to as well as the fact that I have no evil in my heart so no desire to do harm to innocent people for no reason other than the threat of punishment or promise of reward after punching out.

Which one of us actually sounds more naturally moral out of the two?


Satan was there and was sneering at me the whole time, he kept saying to Christ that I was useless and wasn't worth the time of day...


Well, he is a connoisseur and he does not really just want everyone in his house like that Christian god seems to. Then again, why were the three hanging out together? Did they not realize they were all imaginary?


I became angry at that and laughed at him and said I wasn't afraid of him, and right away He became more menacing and morphed into a more vicious looking thing.


Cool, describe it. Run up a sketch by chance?


And I looked at Christ and said "oops" my mistake, please help me, and he said "how can you do it?" I said I can do it, I won't forget this...


So...that made sense.


Then I was back home again... It was very real experience to me and I haven't ever told anyone about it till now...


I would encourage that trend in the future as well. How did you get home? Was it like a flash or does god have a towncar service?


Since then I have always felt that God is always near me..


I hope that helps you.

I manage to not be a bad person without the benefit of a god so does that make me less good?


Some people that may read this that also want to believe, or on the fence about it just might be encouraged about this true story.. It isn't a joke, and it is not made up.. All it took for me to know for sure that he exists was to never stop searching and seeking him out in the world.. maybe that is why he came and rescued me.


Well I honestly hope that experience does nothing but benefit you as I can see it doing exactly the opposite. I seem to recall fundamentalist friends of mine reminding me that Satan had dominion on earth and that visions and prophecies of God, Jesus, etc were really lies by Satan used to trick you. How are you so sure the one that came to you was not really the lord? Do you think you are smarter than the Satan described by your religion?


The biggest thing I learned from this experience was that humans are very small and fragile and definitely need help most of the time, like babies. For me, it is good to know there really is a God who loves. You just have to ask and not be afraid to believe.

Peace


I agree we are small and fragile. I do not however agree that your god has been much help in that area. He made us small and fragile, gave us free will, and let us loose on each other.

Basically helping you is the same as claiming to save someone's life by discontinuing strangling them.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 03:07 AM
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SO, CAN YOU ACTUALLY ANSWER THE QUESTIONS I ASKED YOU?

Or have you realized the huge flaw in your claim?


I've answered you ages ago, if you can't read between the lines that is none of my concern. Nobody's expecting you to be THAT open minded...

I've simply pointed out that there's seems to be a "general" decline of moral standards and ethics that seems to be directly following the decline of "general" religious beliefs and coincide at the same time with a rise in incarceration rates... If you can't see that your blind or around 16 years old...

Now since our debate is going out of context and simply is killing the thread of the OP by respect I will be the most mature of the two and shut up... I don't want the mods to kill his thread because of a diversion of view/belief taken out of context because two idiots couldn't swallow their pride and wanted the last word.

Feel free to PM me to continue this endless conversation.

MODS: Sorry for the sh!t storm...



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by WolfofWar
reply to post by alienreality
 


You have roaming mobs of atheists attacking you? Most Christians I know that complain about atheists attacking them typically start the first offensive. Like this thread.


Emphasis, mine.

I am starting to wonder if irony is a secular experience only.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 03:14 AM
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Originally posted by _R4t_
I've answered you ages ago, if you can't read between the lines that is none of my concern. Nobody's expecting you to be THAT open minded...


Nope. Let me try one last time.

1. No but there is a person that owned that car and pack of cigarettes. You cannot be humane without the fear of God punishing you for it?

2. So the simple fact that you would be taking an innocent human life for no good reason does not matter to you?

3. The only thing keeping you from being a mass murderer is Hell?


I've simply pointed out that there's seems to be a "general" decline of moral standards and ethics that seems to be directly following the decline of "general" religious beliefs and coincide at the same time with a rise in incarceration rates... If you can't see that your blind or around 16 years old...


Or because no one got locked up for burning "witches" or slaughtering entire peoples in the name of a god. How silly of me not to compare this with the incarceration rates during the crusades. Blind or 16 would be what I assume it takes to look at two graphs of such small representation and make such sweeping leaps of logic from them but hey, I got some giant bones to sell ya if that is how you roll.



Now since our debate is going out of context and simply is killing the thread of the OP by respect I will be the most mature of the two and shut up... I don't want the mods to kill his thread because of a diversion of view/belief taken out of context because two idiots couldn't swallow their pride and wanted the last word.

Feel free to PM me to continue this endless conversation.

MODS: Sorry for the sh!t storm...


Are you sorry for violating the censor-circumvention?

Well now you have my questions that were directly back where we started and you can either actually answer them or run off like the other "Christians have all done when questioned on their statements.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 03:16 AM
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reply to post by _R4t_
 


I have a graph too!



What does it mean?! As much as your graph, which is to say, it means nothing. Correlation does not imply Causation. The two statistics are irrelevant to one another. Besides the point, the only reason of the incarceration spike is due to the War on Drugs. In fact, maybe the graphs show an opposite causation; perhaps attendance has gone down because of the greater number of people incarcerated.


[edit on 7-8-2010 by WolfofWar]



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by WolfofWar
 


I felt left out so I went and found a chart too.

2002 US prison population by religion study
Source

Hey Christians, how is that fear of punishment by a god working out for all them thar criminals?

Obviously church attendance is going down as prison population goes up. They cannot get to church from prison! Bam!

[edit on 8-7-2010 by K J Gunderson]



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 03:51 AM
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this thread is getting ridiculous! look… no one knows for sure on ether side! there is no proof that there is and no proof that there is not. this fight can go on for ever. the only thing that will resolve this debate is the day we all die. I am a firm believer in God and have my own proof (which is all I need). excepting God is not something that can be forced upon someone. it must be experienced and learned by one’s self.

most christians are a bunch of self righteous, conceded, ignorant A-holes with no physical proof. but at the same time atheists are a bunch of self righteous, conceded, ignorant A-holes with no physical proof. most atheists hate religion because it tells them how to live their lives. most christians hate atheism because it tells them they are wrong.

the way I see it is that God gave us FREE WILL. free will to think for our self’s and choose our own lives. if the atheists choose to deny God, then let them. they are the only ones that have to deal with their own after lives. if christians choose to follow God, then let them. it is up to them to choose what they will follow blindly.

atheists and christians are the same kind of people, just on different sides. they both impose their ideas and believes on each other and they will both attach a player from the other team. so u know what…..
JUST DROP IT AND LIVE YOUR LIVES!



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 04:32 AM
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reply to post by fallow the light
 


Some of my friends are atheist, But got Married in a church of God.
There is no more sitting on the fence, We take our place on one side or the other which then sets our fate.
Regards, robbo




posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 05:01 AM
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Originally posted by Robbo2006
reply to post by fallow the light
 


Some of my friends are atheist, But got Married in a church of God.
There is no more sitting on the fence, We take our place on one side or the other which then sets our fate.
Regards, robbo



Even atheists appreciate fine architecture and history.

There are many beautiful churches.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 05:57 AM
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What a shame to see that those graphs are wrong.

Take a step away from the computer and walk as far down the road.
Never come back to the computer and wonder what happen to this thread.


Unless we act now in knowing the graphs are true, all is lost, don't accept.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 06:16 AM
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If it weren't for Atheism the Bible might be in error.
reply to post by randyvs
 


haha, well you have given us atheists credit for something. At least we have made the bible innerrant.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 07:36 AM
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lol, i love how atheists act so humble and say "oh, we don't know everything about the universe..." and then they get so cocky and intolerant with christians and say "there's no God", "your God is cruel" and laugh at us as if they were this kinnd of know-it-all ppl.
If our God is cruel but you don't believe in him why does it matter to you?
If i want to worship a cruel, mean God then let me be (but God isn't any of that)



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 08:16 AM
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SO what did humans have to fear about judgement day and all the rest before man invented god ?

take yer modern religious rubbish and psot it on another site , there is certainly nothing top secret about religion !

if your talking religion before christianity , such as ancient civilisations and so called mythology , (ancient astronaut theory ) then we have a discussion worth ATS

anything else is just rubbish propaganda used to control the weak minded



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by orumlight
lol, i love how atheists act so humble and say "oh, we don't know everything about the universe..." and then they get so cocky and intolerant with christians and say "there's no God", "your God is cruel" and laugh at us as if they were this kinnd of know-it-all ppl.


I love how Christians make up stuff. Atheists are not running around screaming there is no god. They simply have not been convinced there is any reason to believe in one. If you have something that might change that, you could change the entire game right now. Here is your big chance!


If our God is cruel but you don't believe in him why does it matter to you?
If i want to worship a cruel, mean God then let me be (but God isn't any of that)


Maybe you should ask the creator of this thread why it is any of his or your business what we may or may not think about the afterlife? How do you all keep missing the fact that this thread was NOT started by an atheist but a "christian."

Cry about being attacked in a thread started by atheists to attack you.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by orumlight
 




lol, i love how atheists act so humble and say "oh, we don't know everything about the universe..." and then they get so cocky and intolerant with christians and say "there's no God",


Here is what I love; Religious folks claim to know exactly how God thinks, and what he says about everything. But trip them up on a clear contradiction of what the world/nature reveals vs their texts, and then they say "well who can know the mind of God", God moves in mysterious ways etc. etc. Clearly a case of cherry picking the truth and confirmation bias.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 09:13 AM
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GEEZ, what a MESS your thread is OP!!!

[color=cyan]The OP comes out GUNS BLAZING, FULL of ARROGANCE, and in a FURY with the creation of this thread, and then like a weak little mouse he runs away and desserts it once RATIONAL, REASONABLE, and LOGICAL questions are asked!!!

The OP is being asked SIMPLE QUESTIONS, but fails COMPLETELY to answer anything here in the THREAD HE CREATED!!!


The only participation the OP engages in here is in taking SILLY CHEAP SHOTS at folks that have legitimate questions and views.

SILLY CHEAP SHOTS is the BEST the OP can do in HIS OWN THREAD!!!


WHAT A TOTAL FAIL!!!!!





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