Democratic Socialists of America say Obama is definitely NOT a Socialist

Seems kinda like crap telling poop that it doesn't stink.

Seriously though, we don't live in a world of pure black and pure white. Politics especially, are a spectrum of grays at best. If you were to lay out capitalist and socialist as the only two sides to a coin, Obama clearly belongs on the socialist side.

If we start breaking it down into shades of gray, it becomes far more difficult to pigeonhole him into one of those two categories.

I'd say our overall government is a Kleptocratic one with a bizarre mixture of capitalism when dealing with profits and Leninism when dealing with debt/losses as far as the elite go, and borderline Stalinism when dealing with the pleebs.

I'd be interested in knowing what the Liars and Theives of America say about Obama.

Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization .. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism. Ludwig von Mises

A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Ludwig von Mises

Like the breaking of a great dam, the American descent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple. Stanislave Mishin. Pravda Apr 2009

An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. Marcus Tullius Cicero

Thanks for the vids Prionace!

I dont care what he is.

He is destroying this country. He is taking money out MY and my FUTURE and my dgrandcildrens future(if the world is even around).

People need to quit arguing about what he is and argue more about if his policies are actually GOOD.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
...fascism is imperial socialism.

How do you figure that?

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production, in opposition to capitalism which is the private ownership of production.

Both are economic systems, not political.

Fascism is a political system that incorporates government ownership, nationalism, along with private ownership (capitalism), in a state controlled collective that takes away individuality. It was a system formed in Italy during WW1, that at first included right and left ideology but become completely right wing in the 1920's.

There is no worker ownership of the means of production in fascism, it is a capitalist/nationalist system. Socialism is neither.

Unless Obama turns the means of production over to the workers he is not a socialist. Socialized health care has nothing to do with it.

[edit on 7/2/2010 by ANOK]

Originally posted by proudcaptalist
I dont care what he is.

He is destroying this country. He is taking money out MY and my FUTURE and my dgrandcildrens future(if the world is even around).

People need to quit arguing about what he is and argue more about if his policies are actually GOOD.

Hmmm the capitalists are taking your money not the president.

Capitalism causes resources to be kept artificially scarce due to under production, or destruction of unsold resources. This forces you to work more than you need to to make the money to purchase needed resources, just so the very few real capitalists can take the majority of what the workforce produces.

There are enough resources to feed the world but capitalism, because of the it's private ownership of the means of production, keeps those resources from being made available to those who really need them.

The reason your system is so full of hate for socialism is because it would benefit you, the working person, but not the capitalist. The state system doesn't want you realising that socialism in it's true form (not welfare or health care, or free stuff, or government control) would be better for the majority and bad for them. They have the control, do you really think they are telling you the truth in their state run schools and media.

Fascism was instigated world wide after WWII, it's why WWII was started in the first place. The worlds workers were becoming too powerful, anarcho-socialism in Spain was WORKING, for two years they collectivized everything and production raised to 20% in some areas and EVERYONE was fed clothed and housed. People went to Spain from all over the world to help fight the fascist establishment of Spain and help the workers socialist revolution, and it would have spread across Europe. The worlds capitalists couldn't allow this to continue.

[edit on 7/2/2010 by ANOK]

Originally posted by realmatrix
Agreed... as are most of our last few Presidents....Bush The First, Clinton, GW Bush and Now Obama.

I think most Presidents have been that way since the Italians made up such a system in the 1930's.

An interesting twist is how fascism is usually nationalistic while our leaders are more bent on an international fascism. I wonder what term that would be?

Globalism?

Originally posted by desert
Someone told me once that Republicans spend as much as Democrats, just on different things.

The big government right is as bad as the big government left. Some of us would call it neo-conservatism.

As an EX-Republican, I will summarize the reason for MOST of the complaining going on about the current administration.

It is 9 out of 10 the WEALTHY who are the ANGRY ones complaining. They fear that the Democrats will now cause them to pay their FAIR SHARE in taxes as opposed to getting off while the "little guy" gets RAPED. George Bush let them enjoy all kinds a SELFISH UNCALLED FOR "PERKS".

The unfairness will come to an END for them, and they are AFRAID as they are 100% SELF-CENTERED GREEDY to the CORE, UNCOMPASSIONATE individuals to say it the nicest possible way.

They will come on here and use SCARE TACTICS supported by UNFOUNDED pure FICTIONAL NONSENSE to support their claims. They VERY RARELY ever have any actual true substance in their claims.

And when there is a SLIGHT truth, it is said WITHOUT the WHOLE story or details, and is CUSTOM TAILORED to fit their BIASED opinion or claims.

THERE IS ALWAYS MORE to the story or info that they discuss in which they PURPOSELY OMIT!!!!!

I was a REPUBLICAN, for a LONG time. I will give you the real scoop on it all.

Just research everything that is claimed from them, and you will see they LACK ANY CREDIBLE SUBSTANCE IN THEIR COUNTER-ATTACKS.

They are ANGRY that they will have to PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE INSTEAD OF THE LITTLE GUY BEING UNFAIRLY BURDENED TO DEATH.

~~~An EX-Republican

I'M BACK!!! And more sarcastic, stubborn and educated as ever before!

Okay so the thread is asking if Obama is a Socialist, simple question right? Shouldn't it be easy to know if someone is or is not what others claim them to be?

Coming from a Socialist myself, more of a Capitalist-Socialist, I can assure you plain and simple that Obama is not a Socialist. But does my word really matter? Does the leader of the Democratic Socialists of America word even matter? Wouldn't saying Obama is not a Socialist be a great shield, they are intentionally lying to make sure they keep Americans on the wrong track so they can sneak their evil ideas into the government.

And wouldn't telling Glenn Beck that Obama is not a Socialist be futile? Because like I stated above it's the perfect plan to say Obama is not a Socialist. So who do we trust here? No one! Not a single damn person, people who have never experienced Socialism say Obama is a Socialist and Socialists are saying Obama is not a Socialist, hell barely even a Liberal! Perfect plan, eh?




Look, telling people Obama is not a Socialist is absolutely futile. They believe what they wish to believe, it's their choice, correct? Let them convince themselves and their other simple friends that we live under a Socialist regime, and tell each other we are becoming Cuba and Venezuela. It doesn't really bother me though, I just laugh!

[edit on 7/2/2010 by Misoir]

reply to post by ExRepublican


You do know that it is the Democrats who voted to exempt Unions from the HCR bill so that they wouldn't have to get taxed on their luxurious health plans. A lot of the rich companies & people that you have your issues against are in Obama's close circle. Just take a look at Warren Buffet, Oprah, George Sorros, Oil Companies, Google, Steve Jobs, NYC Mayor Bloomberg....the list goes on.

With your handle as ExRepublican, I guess you did not like the Regan attitude & conservative principles which now resonates at conservative conventions.





[edit on 2-7-2010 by prionace glauca]

Originally posted by Misoir
Coming from a Socialist myself, more of a Capitalist-Socialist...

No offense but you simply can't be both, they are polar opposites, you can't believe in the private ownership of the means of production and the public/workers ownership of the means of production.

It just seems that people are really confused as to what these terms really mean and stand for and the history of the worlds people, as apposed the normal history we learn about the establishment and their capitalist system. Which btw is not money or even making profit, it's simply who owns the means of production. This is the lie you've been conditioned to believe by the state with it's schools and media, they don't want you to realise that the private ownership of the means of production makes you a wage slave to that owner, and your ability to purchase needed resources is controlled by them.

The history of the real working class and their politics and economic requirements is not taught in school, only the capitalist history of the establishment.

reply to post by David9176


He isn't, not in the broad sense of the word, he wants to redistribute wealth but only to "minorities". That is all I will say because what I want to say about him, it goes against T&C.

reply to post by ldyserenity


A lot of people misunderstand the idea of the 'redistribute of wealth'.

It doesn't mean taking anyone's money and giving it to someone else, it means to a system that allows everyone to benefit from the worlds resources. As of now the resources are owned, controlled, and distributed by the capitalist system that creates an artificial scarcity of resources in order to continue making profit, thus taking those resources from those who cannot afford them through no fault of their own.

Not everyone can be wealthy when the means of production are owned by the few, and jobs are kept scarce in order to keep the power in the hands of the 'owner' and not the worker.

Capitalism requires a poverty class in order to keep control. If jobs were in abundance and workers could easily find new work, there would be no motivation to stay at a job you're not happy with. The owners would have to continually increase wages and job conditions in order to keep workers from simply going down the street to better position. Good for the workers, bad for capitalism.

So if you support capitalism then you must come to terms with it's constituencies, and either admit not everyone can have a good paying job and there will always be poverty, thus you need to provide for the situation you created (health care etc.), or expect people to be dying in the street you drive down in your fancy car.

See it's not socialism that wants social health care, welfare, capitalism requires it for society to be livable in. In a true socialist system, where the means of production are owned by the many, then resources would be in far more abundance and there would be no need for 'welfare'.

If you don't want a welfare state then you ought to look at why we need a welfare state in the first place.

reply to post by ANOK


yeah i see, IDK what to call this man Obama, I mean I have a few good words I can't use because of T&C. The point is though he wants HIS KIND to be given everything if he could he'd kill all of us of the fairer nature.

reply to post by ldyserenity


LOL I think you're being a bit unfair here, what do yo mean 'his kind', you mean black? He's not poor, he's not from the working class, he is part of the capitalist class, that is HIS KIND. Trust me no one becomes president unless those in power allow, he is no more or less the same as any other ruling elite. Most of what happens in the economy is nothing to do with the president, most of it was already in play long before Obama. People need to learn to separate economy from politics.

I'm questioning your motives here....

Anyway I'm late for cocktails at the Ritz, gotta go...

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Misoir
Coming from a Socialist myself, more of a Capitalist-Socialist...

No offense but you simply can't be both, they are polar opposites, you can't believe in the private ownership of the means of production and the public/workers ownership of the means of production.

It just seems that people are really confused as to what these terms really mean and stand for and the history of the worlds people, as apposed the normal history we learn about the establishment and their capitalist system. Which btw is not money or even making profit, it's simply who owns the means of production. This is the lie you've been conditioned to believe by the state with it's schools and media, they don't want you to realise that the private ownership of the means of production makes you a wage slave to that owner, and your ability to purchase needed resources is controlled by them.

The history of the real working class and their politics and economic requirements is not taught in school, only the capitalist history of the establishment.

Sorry my friend but there is such a thing, it is called Social democracy and is quite possibly the most common ideology in the world.

reply to post by ANOK


Well, his kind are both the elite and minorities, yes... Just try to get on welfare being white, try to get an ounce of help after giving them a pound of flesh your whole life.

you see he gives money to the welathy already and welfare like I said if you aren't black or hispanic might as well forget it! I don't care if you are dying in the street if you're white, you will never have access to the social programs now!!!!

[edit on 2-7-2010 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 2-7-2010 by ldyserenity]

Duh.

I am so surprised.

He is another global elite gangster looting the US treasury for every dirty, ex-patriot global conglomerate.

He broke his FISA promise=LIE even before the election.
He was lying about NAFTA.

Bush-Cheney was like being raped without lube.

Obama is like being raped with lube.

It is the same dam thing going on, but it feels so much better.

But because it does feel so much better, you may actually be worse off for it, because like the boiling frog, you will be dead before you figure out to respond.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
...fascism is imperial socialism.

How do you figure that?

Well hitler claimed to be a national socialist, his words not mine. Yes he was a bigot and yes he was an imperialist but he was also a socialist.

Stalin was also an imperialist but not a bigot. He was an overly paranoid communist dictator afraid of anyone that dare oppose him and his agenda.

England was imperialistic, france were imperialistic, holland was imperialistic, belgium was imperialistic, portugal was imperialstic, etc.....

All of europe were imperialists and quasi-socialists at the same time so germany under hitler also being social imperialists is very natural! The only reason everyone seems to hate hitler was because he attempted to conquer europe which seemed inconceivable for one european nation attacking another european nation during that period. Most european battles were fought centuries ago so people grew accustomed to a false sense of security.

Today the usa is/was the #1 imperialist. Tomorrow it may be china....

Originally posted by ANOK
Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production, in opposition to capitalism which is the private ownership of production.

You are confusing socialism with communism. Socialism allows private ownership of business but keeps everything important to society as public property, run by the government for the people.

Socialism is a mixed economy with elements of communism and capitalism. As such it is a hybrid system so forget what marx and lenin say. They have a tendency to equate socialism and communism which absolutely flawed. I am of the opinion much of this confusion was intentional because people feared communism and/or because it was a stigma. As a result socialism has been stigmatised with communist russia and the nazi holocaust while capitalists such as bush jr and bush sr and tony blair get away with muslim mass murder in the name of fake freedom and weapons of mass destruction.

The hypocrisy of modern day society is absolutely astonishing when you put it under the microscope. It should never have passed the BS test but people have been conditioned by schooling and main stream media to give capitalism a free pass while tearing apart socialism and communism.

Originally posted by ANOK
Both are economic systems, not political.

Technically speaking you are correct but quite often they get intertwined.

It is easy to have an illusionary democracy and an illusionary republic with capitalism but true socialism and communism are harder to enforce because people have a tendency to hog resources for themselves. It takes force to deal with criminals!

Originally posted by ANOK
Fascism is a political system that incorporates government ownership, nationalism, along with private ownership (capitalism), in a state controlled collective that takes away individuality. It was a system formed in Italy during WW1, that at first included right and left ideology but become completely right wing in the 1920's.

It became right wing because of imperialism or because of the quasi-dictatorship? You have to realise fascism and nazism was popular during the 20's and 30's. The jewish holocaust put a huge dent in regard to its image and some people will never let go.

Europeans have murdered thousands of native americans in north/central/south america and sudaneese have murdered millions of black christians but jews are special. They must be gods choosen race or something since we allow them to control EVERYTHING and everytime we criticise them we get "hitler mass murdered 6 million jews" to shut our mouths. Besides historians can't even agree if it was 3 million or 6 million!

I mean no disrespect but they need to get over their superiority complex and come down to earth. Since the time of christ, when they murdered jesus because he wasn't messiah quality, it seems they are suffering a curse. Perhaps we should line up a few million germans and shot them so the jews can avenge their losses and leave everyone else alone. I hate to pay for someone else's crime especially when to a large degree they brought misery to themselves for being greedy and dishonest.

Originally posted by ANOK
Unless Obama turns the means of production over to the workers he is not a socialist. Socialized health care has nothing to do with it.

[edit on 7/2/2010 by ANOK]

Socialised health care is a bad joke when the american people have to pay AN ADDITIONAL TAX to cover themselves. Most of our tax money goes to pay "our"(bankers) debt and overseas muslim genocide for oil and opium.

There are two "truths". One that most people agree upon because they were told to believe so and the real truth that takes years of research to uncover. No one will do your homework! No offense. I am just making general comments about life.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by EarthCitizen07]

Originally posted by AtlasShrugging
Capitalism and socialism are two distinct patterns of social organization .. There is no such thing as a mixed economy, a system that would stand midway between capitalism and socialism. Ludwig von Mises

If socialism is communism then WTF is communism and how come no one ever used it to describe russia before its transition to full blown capitalism?

Communism makes no distinction between a national airline, a national tv station, national shipping companies, national electricity companies, national telephone companies AND a hot dog vendor, a tv repairman, a farmer, a scientist or any other private small business.

Let me say it reallllllllllly sloooooowwwwwwwwwwwww.........

WITH COMUNISM EVERYONE WORKS FOR THE GOVERNMENT BECAUSE EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING IS PUBLIC PROPERTY!

With socialism, big business that would normally be private under capitalism, is public because it benefits the majority of citizens whereas with capitalism there is large scale exploitation.

You don't have to go far to know this. I am suprised there are no old europeans on ATS to back me up on this and I have to carry the burden of proof with my word only........it gets tirring having to repeat the same # again and again with people HELLBENT ON IGNORANCE!

Originally posted by AtlasShrugging
A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Ludwig von Mises

Absolute hogwash! That guy is a moron!

Originally posted by AtlasShrugging
Like the breaking of a great dam, the American descent into Marxism is happening with breath taking speed, against the back drop of a passive, hapless sheeple. Stanislave Mishin. Pravda Apr 2009

Substitute "marxism" with "authoritarian capitalism".

Originally posted by AtlasShrugging
An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. Marcus Tullius Cicero

America has been betrayed with capitalism for a long time. It just happens that ONLY NOW people are starting to realise how bad they have been hoodwinked.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by EarthCitizen07]