It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Your thoughts on two historic quotes

page: 1
3

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 06:14 PM
link   
I have two quotes I would like to see everyone's views on. One quote is by Karl Marx. The other is by Thomas Jefferson. Quotes meaning different by people. Personally I love both quotes and I use them widely. Keep this thread civil! Hopefully we'll learn a few things.



All men are created equal

The quotation "All men are created equal" is arguably the best-known phrase in any of America's political documents. Thomas Jefferson first used the phrase in the Declaration of Independence as a rebuttal to the going political theory of the day: the Divine Right of Kings. It was thereafter quoted or incorporated into speeches by a wide array of substantial figures in American political and social life.



From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program. The phrase summarizes the principles that, under a communist system, every person should contribute to society to the best of his or her ability and consume from society in proportion to his or her needs. In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist society will produce; the idea is that there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs.




posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 06:18 PM
link   
Well socialism never builds anyone up, it brings everyone to a common level of misery except those chosen to run the show . As for all men [people] being equal, there is a difference between equality of opportunity and equality of ability.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 06:24 PM
link   
Marx's mother shouldve taken a rusty coathanger to herself in some dark alley somewhere before she gave birth to that virus in the form of an alleged human being.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 06:29 PM
link   
Marxism is not that bad! Jefferson was not all that good.

According to Jefferson's actions:
"All Men are Created Equal" means all white men, blacks are only 2/3rds equal, and black women are great for captive concubines!

The Marx quote is a noble undertaking that we know is only exploited by the human element. It works perfectly in the insect world!

Now, I love Jefferson, and I am not so fond of Marx, but both men were great visionaries, and I believe both men wanted the best for mankind. There lofty thought processes were later bastardized by men driven by greed and self-promotion.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 06:33 PM
link   
a lot of native americans probably would say the same of our forefathers.

both extremely intelligent people, whose ideas contributed an insane amount, whether good or bad, to the world today. maybe one day will will use one of these men's ideas responsibly.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 06:38 PM
link   
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


I will concur with hangedman13 on the Jefferson quote, and simply speak to the Marx quote. I will break it into the two parts.

"From each according to his ability,"

This is a fine philosophical principle (to personally do what you can), but an horrible government policy.

"to each according to his need."

The problem with this is that its always someone else who determine what you need.

That's as simple as I can make it.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Wolf321]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 06:41 PM
link   

Originally posted by getreadyalready
The Marx quote is a noble undertaking that we know is only exploited by the human element. It works perfectly in the insect world!


Marxism suffered a lot from nostalgia for a kind of never-existent pastoral civilization where the population was low, nobody lived in huge cities, and everybody helped everybody else. It also never took into account that people are often personally motivated to work hard, be rewarded for that hard work, and prove themselves better than some other stupid person. Most people are only interested in giving freely to others in need if they are personally related to them, and then not all the time. Marxism/ Communism suffered from a basic lack of understanding of human psychology, and why people can on one hand be incredibly lazy, but on the other work themselves to death if they want to.

It's a shame that so many people bought into the notion. But there were and still are a lot of poor people who saw how they could benefit from it. It sure did cause a lot of problems and wars in the 20th Century. People have to fight about something, I guess.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 08:33 PM
link   
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 

Karl Marx was brilliant, but he did not understand human nature, essentially the fact that people in general will only work hard if there is a reason to do so. WE CAN ALL BE NEEDY, if we are going to be fed whether we work or not. "From each according to his ability" starts looking foolish when suddenly, NO ONE seems to have the ABILITY.

He was of the belief that the privileged should RUN things...this is to be expected from the educated/privileged class of people. They are the best to decide WHO gets WHAT as long as no one is telling them WHAT THEY get out of the deal.

Thomas Jefferson had slaves, so NO, ALL men may have been born equal before their creator, but they were not treated equally by their fellow man. Their was very little understanding of other races and cultures then, but this was a period in history when all of that was changing. Jefferson believed in the power of the individual, politically I suppose, the WHITE individual.



posted on Jul, 3 2010 @ 02:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Marxism is not that bad! Jefferson was not all that good.

According to Jefferson's actions:
"All Men are Created Equal" means all white men, blacks are only 2/3rds equal, and black women are great for captive concubines!

The Marx quote is a noble undertaking that we know is only exploited by the human element. It works perfectly in the insect world!

Now, I love Jefferson, and I am not so fond of Marx, but both men were great visionaries, and I believe both men wanted the best for mankind. There lofty thought processes were later bastardized by men driven by greed and self-promotion.


the 2/3 thing came from the missouri compromise not jefferson. and while he did not live up to the truth of his statement it does not make it any less true.
while I agree with some marxist ideas his views like you alluded are contingent of humans showing their best qualities, beside the fact that we have only truly stop at socialism and extremely totalitarian forms at- there has been no true communism because we cannot shed the leaders nor are they for that once in power. in short I agree with you.



posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 09:19 AM
link   
To the Jefferson-haters... our third president was one of the most vocal of the revolutionary period to call for an end to slavery.... though he owned slaves, he treated them with the utmost respect and educated them. Slave-ownership was part of the lifestyle back then, but Jefferson was successful at ending the slave trade in Virginia as a state representative. As president, he ended slave trade in the USA.

Here is a famous quote on his views in which he expresses the need to relieve everyone from slavery... a misnamed term. He had no problem in emancipation. He articulates the situation with Justice on one side of the scale and self-preservation on the other side.



I can say with conscious truth that there is not a man on earth who would sacrifice more than I would, to relieve us from this heavy reproach [slavery], in any practicable way. the cession of that kind of property, for so it is misnamed, is a bagatelle [a small matter] which would not cost me in a second thought, if, in that way, a general emancipation and expatriation could be effected: and, gradually, and with due sacrifices, I think it might be. but, as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.



As the OP's quote says, "All men are CREATED equal." Not all men remain equal in life. Marxism and communism requires that no person can better themselves if they have the craft or talent to do so. Plus, only the most powerful or privilaged can rule. This is why communism and marxism fails every time. The people are ultimately enslaved by the government with no freedom.

Jefferson wins hands down!


MOD EDIT: to add quote code to Jefferson quotation

[edit on 7/6/2010 by benevolent tyrant]



posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 01:08 PM
link   
we all may be created equal, but it doesn't stay that way. things change from the cradle to the grave. still to this day, seems to me, most folks tend to believe that it is possible to be more "equal" than others.

who determines need vs. ability? a bureaucrat? good one, thats rich. have a social worker determine your fate? i'll pass. trying to quit.

marx was evidently an idealist. for such a brilliant man he obviously had no grasp on the human condition. communism isn't the only brand of government that works great until you get to the headwaters. in the end there is always a small group left in control of the resources. and as we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. it's just another front for elitism.

jefferson seems a little more of a realist. at least he knew the reality of the situation. marx was just daydreaming. at the time of the signing of the declaration of independence an anti-slavery platform was tantamount to political suicide. some of the founding fathers were forced to choose their battles in order to win the war.



posted on Jul, 5 2010 @ 01:55 PM
link   
You see the problem with looking at history, is we lack the perspective of those that lived it.
While both political/historical figures may have their merits or discredit, we simply cannot apply what they were thinking of at THIS time.
Sure, we can come close, but we will never be spot on.
People have changed over the past 200, 100, 50, 25 years.

In the past, people did without.
Both because of lack of money, and lack of technology.
So many things we take for granted today, and we think we have it bad.

There is also a narrow view regarding which direction to take, to better ourselves.
There are good and bad things about a lot of different social ideologies.
How come we can't cherry pick the good and bury the bad?
Why so serious about conformation to a strict regime.
In the end, if we have absolutely no spiritual (NOT RELIGIOUS), scientific, social, growth, we are going to get no where.
The GIMME, GIMME, MINE, MINE, ME, ME, philosophy that corporations and media have brainwashed us with, has to stop before we can move forward.
Then again there in lies the problem.



new topics

top topics



 
3

log in

join