Way to go Bush!

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
And have either of you ever actually fought in a war?

No but my father pretty much gave his life in it. 100% disabled at the ripe ole age of 21 and his wonderful scars from his burns are so very attractive. And lets not forget his lack of use for his hands, no I haven't fought in a war but I have lived with the casualty of it.

Originally posted by Pyros
Joker,

......

All I see are three things:

1) Americans over there trying to restore peace and order
2) Americans over there trying to rebuild a nation
3) Americans over there getting shot, kidnapped, and mutilated
4) Americans over there trying to get the job done and get the hell outta there as fast as possible

......

1) Peace and order that was more or less destroyed when the bombs began falling. Sure they might of had some problems but nothing near the carnage that is taking place now. Conservative figures of 10,000+ Iraqi citizens killed???

2) Rebuilding a nation destroyed by American bombs. Oh, by the way, let's give all of the lucrative re-building contracts to the likes of Halliburton, Bechtel and others that have 'inside' connections and/or are favourable to the BUSH regime. Also, I do believe that the Bin Laden construction group is somehow involved in construction of US air fields, etc. Look it up, they did the same for the US with their military base(s) in Saudi Arabia.

3) If Luxembourg decided to invade the US for no reason, would you not shoot back?

4) Get the job done? You mean invade a sovereign nation on no internationally accepted grounds whatsoever, for reasons purely fabricated, to secure a strategic geographical location in the middle east and to ensure that the natural resources in possession of such country are carefully transferred to the US oil giants!

Maybe someone should make a movie of the mass graves and executions under Saddam's rule. Maybe include the nerve gassing of the Kurds too...

Originally posted by NashMan
Maybe someone should make a movie of the mass graves and executions under Saddam's rule.

Cheered on by our government at the time and well supplied by said, I might add. It didn't seem to matter back then when ol' Saddam was doing our bidding. I'd hate for anyone to forget that salient point.

Maybe include the nerve gassing of the Kurds too...

He wouldn't have been able to do that, now, would he, if his good western European and US allies had not supplied him with the rotten stuff? That gets all too conveniently swept under the rug, though. Shame.

Nothing on that slide show is new, we all know what is going on in Iraq, for people like me, I just say I know..............

Now for people that keeps defending this irrational president and his delusions of grandeur well they will fall flat on their buts finding an excuse to the destruction of humanity in the country, the followers of this presidents will become as inhuman as the pictures of destruction so they can feel good inside. And is ok to call them animals, I wonder who the real animals are.

I'll give you that America's hands aren't as clean as I would like, and that we've supported "bad" guys in the past.

But let's not "sweep under the rug" all the other atrocities commited by Saddam: Rape Rooms, Torturing of Children and all the rest.

Face it, Iraq, and the rest of the world, is a better place with him gone...

As for Iraq and Al-qaida, don't sweep the connection under the rug so quickly....

www.weeklystandard.com... /004/152lndzv.asp?pg=1

Thanks for reading, and holding a respectful discussion...

TextFace it, Iraq, and the rest of the world, is a better place with him gone...

Ican not agree with you more, but Sadam is not the only government in the world that commits atrocities in their countries and are we going to destroy their countries as well? Iraq as today is a shadow of its former self the cities and the people are more scar by the American Invasion than by the atrocities his former sovereign did.

Here's a theory....maybe most of the distruction in that animation was actually caused by the Iraqi militant groups. How many car bombs have they set off, usually killing more innocent Iraqi civilians than American troops? They ambush and kill their recently established government officials. They are terrorists.

tkeax1088,

that's no theory, that's a fact, and it's a great point!

War is blood and guts and people with their limbs blown off. Of course they don't show it on CNN, it's too graphic for the poor US public to handle.


And as for "liberation from Saddam":

Don't you think Iraqis are thinking, "Well where the heck was America for the last 30 years while we were being slaughtered by our "leader"?"

You bet they are. And they're not buying the "We Liberated Iraq for the Iraqis" BS.

The US forces don't even COUNT civilian casualties, what does THAT say? it says they feel dead Iraqis are not even important enough to TABULATE.

Some of you folks really crack me up with your perspective on Iraq and the suffering of their people. I have yet to see anyone state that Iraq was a better place to live under Saddam than they way things are right now. Granted, there is a lot of violence and poverty inherent to the Iraqi situation, but this WILL improve over time. Yes, some people are getting killed and there are criminal acts being committed (unfortunately on both sides), but this is a passing abberation in a political process which will ultimately result in an improved way of life for the Iraqi people.

Not to make light of an intolerable situation, but you sometimes have to break a few eggs to make an omlet.

Its patently clear to me that some people are fond of quoting figures about numbers of civilians killed and so forth, simply to promote their politcal position or anti-government agenda. Thats fine, go right ahead. But if you really think the Iraqis have it so bad and its all the fault of the US, you are all wet. These people ahve been living like this for hundreds of years, and once their electricity is respored, their basic way of life will be nearly completely restored. I have been to the Middle East and seen the way these people live. Compared to the west, it is abject poverty for the most part. But it is not like Bahgdad was some glittering glass metropolis to begin with. Yes it is a mess and yes it will need to be cleaned up and rebuilt, but that happens in every revolution/war where oppressed peoples are freed. Even when they are freed when their liberators arrive under false pretenses.

Please gimme a break with the Iraqi civilian casualties bit. Its a stinking war! The cities and countrsides are infested with crazed religious fanatics bent on suicide. There is poverty everywhere and its 100 degrees over there. People are gonna die. If you wanna cry about innocent people dying, start a threat about the 5,000 adults and 1,000 children who die of AIDS in Africa EVERY DAMN DAY.

Or do their deaths not support any of your political platforms?

[edit on 15-6-2004 by Pyros]

If we as a people took a collective breath for just a moment, step back and see the BIG picture...

1. It is about oil. Japan is Iraq's largest importer of oil. Iraq shuts off the valve the world economy collapses.
2. SURPRISE! People don't like to be occupied! Thet will fight back. We had soldiers dying 7years after our occupation of GERMANY. JAPAN was twice as closed and fanatical society and well, things turned out ok.
3. Iran is the largest sponser of terrorism in the world. We now have a democracy on their EAST and WEST border. Big picture... get it?
4. Civilians die in war. The local bad guys are hiding in neigborhoods. 2+2.
5. If we come home they will follow us home on our heels, probably to Columbus Ohio to blow up malls.

Grow Up!

War is blood and guts and people with their limbs blown off. Of course they don't show it on CNN, it's too graphic for the poor US public to handle.

And the more the news and the world see the better for the Islamic extremist groups advantage, be by the US or by their own hands, chaos and instability is the bread and blood of terrorist.

And we the US are giving them plenty of it.

Pyros:

I have yet to see anyone state that Iraq was a better place to live under Saddam than they way things are right now. Granted, there is a lot of violence and poverty inherent to the Iraqi situation, but this WILL improve over time. Yes, some people are getting killed and there are criminal acts being committed (unfortunately on both sides), but this is a passing abberation in a political process which will ultimately result in an improved way of life for the Iraqi people.

Yeah, haha, it's only been TWO YEARS since Iraq was "liberated", what's their rush? So maybe there's 3 or 4 carbomb attacks PER DAY, maybe there's still a big problem with law enforcement and maybe people still don't have much electricity, but these things take TIME. Maybe there's Iraqis being tortured and killed by the US Occupation, but ye without sin throw the first stone, it takes TIME to fix these things.

TIME that should have been taken in the rush to war. TIME that should have been given BEFORE the war to figure out what to do in post-war Iraq.

The U.S. has made a HUGE mess of Iraq, and it has only gotten WORSE. People are sick of waiting and dying.

Not to make light of an intolerable situation, but you sometimes have to break a few eggs to make an omlet.

Unless those eggs happen to 4 American non-military workers in Fallujah, because then the Army will just have to bomb that city and kill upwards of 800 civilians. So preface your statement with "sometimes you have to break a few non-white, non-American eggs to make an omelet".

Its patently clear to me that some people are fond of quoting figures about numbers of civilians killed and so forth, simply to promote their politcal position or anti-government agenda. Thats fine, go right ahead. But if you really think the Iraqis have it so bad and its all the fault of the US, you are all wet.

So prove it. Iraqis are far better off now than they were 3 years ago? How? I see every day how it's worse. Read above.

These people ahve been living like this for hundreds of years, and once their electricity is respored, their basic way of life will be nearly completely restored. I have been to the Middle East and seen the way these people live. Compared to the west, it is abject poverty for the most part. But it is not like Bahgdad was some glittering glass metropolis to begin with.

Um, stick with what you know. Iraqis have been living like this for hundreds of years? Living like what?

Baghdad used to be one of the most educated, richest cities in the whole MIddle East, so that point is a little off too.

Yes it is a mess and yes it will need to be cleaned up and rebuilt, but that happens in every revolution/war where oppressed peoples are freed. Even when they are freed when their liberators arrive under false pretenses.

Okay, drop "revolution" right away. This was no revolution.

Nobody asked to be "freed" either. And they are NOT free. And the reason why so much needs to be rebuilt is due to 11 years of sanctions and, you know, all those bombs you dropped on them.

If you can't see that the people who suffered from the Illegal Invasion of Iraq the MOST are Iraqi civilians, then you're blind.

Because everyone else in the world can see it, it's plain as day...

Please gimme a break with the Iraqi civilian casualties bit. Its a stinking war! The cities and countrsides are infested with crazed religious fanatics bent on suicide. There is poverty everywhere and its 100 degrees over there. People are gonna die. If you wanna cry about innocent people dying, start a threat about the 5,000 adults and 1,000 children who die of AIDS in Africa EVERY DAMN DAY.

Um, I'm not counting heatstroke victims. And the reason why I don't mention the deaths in Africa from AIDS is because this is a forum on the War On Terror.

As for the body counts, why is it so frickin important to remember that 3000 innocent lives were lost on 9-11 and it's TOTALLY unimportant to remember that over 10,000 Iraq civilians have died at the hands of US Occupation soldiers?

Please explain to me the math that makes those 3000 so much more important than the 10,000 others.

Because, again, there's a whole rest of the world out there who has a totally opposite view of yours, where they believe the number 10,000 to be higher than the number 3,000.

Just because you think your country is the most important in the world doesn't make it so.

Bush is like a toddler with a temper tantrum he is going to prove that he can rebuild a nation (it happened to be Iraq) and so help him god and all the religious organizations he is asking help from to back his agenda he is going to do it and to hell with the casualties as long as the pope pardon him.

Hello everyone

I am not from the US and I for one can not understand the following thing:

Why does the Bush administration (or the US government in general) think restoring other countries is their business? I think it doesn't really matter if Iraq was a mess before or its leader was an evil dictator who oppressed his people. Even if it was so, there is no sensible explanation as to why the US would have had the duty to "liberate" Iraq. And forcing someone to live in a democracy, who has lived for decades under a dictatorship, is a bit far-fetched. Democracy may be the best solution for the US, but this doesn't make it the best for any country. Remember Vietnam? The same mistake there, but human beings are just so damn bad at learning from their faults.

The whole talk about 9/11 is just ridiculous. Why would a small act of terror be enough to start a war? It's like I would kill some person including his whole family just for being teased a little by him. I know it may seem to be a very harsh statement to those who acually had some relative killed on 9/11. But this fact does not justify ANY war. The life of an American is just as important as the life of an Iraqi.

I believe there are more US citizens dying from poverty than died on 9/11. So why don't they spend the money where it would be appropriate? Helping the poor would save so many more lives than taking revenge for a one-time event like 9/11 was.

Or if the US government feels like "throwing away" their capitalist savings, what about supporting (not controlling) Third World countries?

I tend to say that the US want to have power and influence and feel like the world's police which can adjust what they don't like. However, I'm reluctant to say it because it would be an insult and actually no-one likes to hear the truth.

Someone who is serious about establishing peace in the world should start by not beginning a war. Sounds pretty logical, doesn't it? However, they say that GB is too dumb to grasp this simple concept.

Very simple because 9/11 was what this administration was waiting for to get into Iraq, if you had read the other threads about why US went to Iraq you will know by now that it all for the oil baby.

Who, exactly, is considered to be an Iraqi civilian casualty? Any Iraqi that is not officially affiliated with the Iraqi army or any other army? That number would then encompass A LOT of people.

Are any Iraqis that carry weapons (some people have friggin rocket launchers) considered civilians? If some Iraqi, acting on his own behalf, throws a moltov cocktail or something similar towards an American soldier, and is shot in response, is he considered a civilian casualty? How many of these civilian casualties are caused by their own people (car bombs, suicide bombers)?

These are the things I would like to know before numbers of civilian casualties get thrown around. I understand there are many innocent people who are dying over there, but I don't think its fair that either side (opposition or supporters of the war) use these numbers to help thier argument, either for or against the war.

You. Are. Not. Very. Bright. (Thread starter)

@marg6043

Yeah of course I knew it's all about oil, even without having read all of the threads here, I figured it out for myself. But it's kinda obvious isn't it.

@woodside

I strongly disagree with your point about excluding people with weapons from the civilian casualties. What would you do in the first place if a foreign army invaded your country with brute force? I bet you would shoot at the invaders too, and the fact that the soldiers you shot at were just "following orders" would not make any difference to you. Even if you think to be a savior for the Iraqi civilization, their point of view is certainly different. They didn't ask to be liberated from the power of Saddam. They just have the impression of a powerful nation which can't mind its own business.

Having started a war was the biggest mistake that could be made, you must admit. But you can't undo it. The best solution for the US is to establish a government which suits best for exporting oil, and which ensures the US has enough influence even if they retreat. Isn't that exactly the intent? I believe it is, but this doesn't make it the best solution for Iraq, as I have said before.

Iraqis are not used to democracy, they just have enough trouble keeping their families alive and they usually don't care about the government. If you're struggling for live, you are far better off when you don't have to care about politics. This means they are far better off with a dictatorship. Democracy won't raise the living standard either, it will just have a minority of people getting very rich and the rest will stay where they are.

I might be wrong though, I haven't asked every Iraqi what government he or she would prefer. But I think even if they preferred democracy, they would not want it to be forced by a foreign country.

I apologize for the fact that this has certainly been discussed many times, but I just can't help to say it again because I have the impression that there are still folks not seeing the truth.

[edit on 16-6-2004 by SocialistOrder]