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American ATS'ers, What are you thinking of when you recite the Pledge of Allegiance?

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posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:26 AM
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Hopefully this is the correct place for this thread, as it examines some personal philosophical ideas behind the Pledge of Allegiance.

This is a spill over from School Officials in Mass. Town Won't Let Students Recite Pledge of Allegiance. Thanks to Alienmind for starting up that thread. I started this one so as not to derail the topic.

So, American ATS'ers out there, when you recite the Pledge of Allegiance, what exactly are you pledging allegiance to? I can understand the idea of pledging allegiance to a country, but what exactly do you, as a person think of when reciting the Pledge?

Is it the country as a whole (including all the good and bad aspects), the ideals behind your country? The principals on which your country was based on? The government? Current or past ideals (whether or not they hold any force in todays world)?

Pledging allegiance to the flag is one thing. But surely each one you must have their own separate ideals when reciting this allegiance. This is what I am trying to find out. I grew up in New Zealand, and yes, at the time we were more socialist then anything else. Even through our political ideals were vastly different back then, is the way we view our respective countries similar?

For me, when I think of pledging allegiance to NZ (although, as far as I know we don't have an official pledge that people take), I immediately think of freedom and the ability to 'do what I want” so long as it doesn't impede on anyone else. I know this not to be true in NZ nowadays (and many other places in the world), so I guess it's now more of a reinforcement of beliefs that were previously held in my country. It for me, is a vision of an ideal New Zealand, the country I knew as a child.

Surely you don't agree with everything that's going on in your country, so why does the Pledge have to blanket every aspect of life under one banner? Why can't you, as people capable of independent thought choose not to support those things that you don't personally agree with?

It all boils down to this:

If you do recite the Pledge of Allegiance, then what or who are you personally pledging your allegiance to?

Thanks in advance,

Shane




posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:28 AM
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The land, the people, and the Constitution and the ideology it represents.

Sorry, I only needed one line.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:31 AM
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reply to post by shamus78
 


Thank you for the thread! Quite an interesting subject.


but what exactly do you, as a person think of when reciting the Pledge?


I was born in the US and learned the pledge in kindergarten. Honestly, for a lot of my early life, I thought nothing about what the pledge might mean. It was like a chore I had to every morning. No one in school truly even bothered to explain it to us. We were just told to do it or else we would have detention or something of the sort.

Now that I'm older, I am still unsure why I still make the pledge when it is 'required' to do so. Perhaps I am pledging to the freedoms the US provides to me.

I look forward to see other responses!

Kind regards



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:35 AM
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Some people might be surprised to learn that I don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Neither does my wife.

We will stand for the flag, we will salute the flag, we will honor the flag. But we will not recite an allegiance to an inanimate object. That's idolatry.

More than that, it's knowingly bowing to an advertising scheme, and I've worked in advertising for too many years to be sucked in by somebody's brain-washing chant.

I also don't chant Oooo-Baahhhh-MMaaaaa.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:35 AM
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I recited the PofA in grade school. It was normal routine. I can't honestly remember if I was thinking of anything at the time, certainly wasn't thinking anything about the meaning behind the Pledge or what it may represent. I don't think I've actually said it out loud or even thought about it, since then.

If I had to attach a meaning to it today, I guess that it evokes a sense of commitment to "home"

Best I can do, for an explanation...



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


But while Constitution has remained unchanged the ideology it represents has changed. They have been filtered down thru the many aspects of society that simply didn't exist back then. Do you prefer the simple founding ideals or the more convoluted and complex ideals in place in today?

By the way, I'm in noooo way an expert in US history, so bear with me if I make a stuff-up!



I also don't chant Oooo-Baahhhh-MMaaaaa.


Doc Velocity, your replys always make me smile!


[edit on 30/6/10 by shamus78]



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by shamus78
 


I don't recite the Pledge of Allegiance. While in elementary school and into middle school I recited it and was just going along with everyone else. In high school I stopped reciting the pledge. I received detentions because of this, and derision from some "friends" who didn't even want to discuss why I refused to recite the words. Interestingly, though, all this brought me some new acquaintances, some who became friends.

Not wanting to disrupt anything, I did stand and remained quiet while others recited the pledge. But that didn't seem good enough for some people. ".......with liberty and justice for all."
Well, with liberty for some...........those who recited the pledge.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:45 AM
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See, the view from alot of the rest of the world is that you guys stand up everyday and take the Pledge while holding you hand to your hearts... As seen in almost any movie with a US high school in it.

Guess my world view needs to be corrected. This is interesting!



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
We will stand for the flag, we will salute the flag, we will honor the flag. But we will not recite an allegiance to an inanimate object. That's idolatry.


Same here.. will not nor have not recited since I was forced to in school as a child. It's never felt right.

I was in the military and never recited it though to become a member you were supposed to have.

b



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:53 AM
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It is funny you brought this up. I am in the process of making a thread on the pledge right now. As far as what my intent when saying the pledge is to adhere to, foster and defend the principles and ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence, the constitution, and the writings of the founders on matters of freedom in the US, as well as the positive characteristics demonstrated by the people over the course of the nations history (charity, fortitude, faith, etc.)



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:55 AM
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I think "so this must have been what it felt like in Nazi Germany."


I never said the pledge in school. They still made me stand, and I resented that too.


I'm loyal to my country, not to the feds.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:56 AM
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Nationalism/patriotism is not something I engage in. I find it to be rather sick really. There's no sensible reason to feel that one piece of land and the creatures residing therein are in some way more worthy than the land and creatures residing in another. Is the North American cockroach superior to the European cockroach? Are they, in turn, superior to cockroaches found on any other continent? What about birds? Fish? Trees? See my point?

People are no different. Ideologies are no different. They are great for a time but no system nor society succeeds all the time. They fall. They always fall.

The Pledge of Allegiance, the Lord's Prayer, anything you recite by rote is worthless. It's simply empty words at best and brainwashing at worst. You have to live the qualities every single day, not recite something scribbled somewhere by some "authority". You must be your words.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:08 AM
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How about this edit?????

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
And to the Republic for which stands
One nation, One Bill of rights, indivisible with Liberty and Justice for All



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:11 AM
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reply to post by CosmicEgg
 


I don't see why nationalism or patriotism has to have anything to do with land or persons. I have patriotism for the fundamental principles that founded the USA.

Ideology's ARE different. That is why each individual chooses one over another. If you select one, by nature you think it is the best. I see nothing wrong in being proud of something that is inherently yours and you think is the best.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:11 AM
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I stopped reciting it when they took "under God" out.

Don't they still say the Pledge in the House and Senate? I heard them say it while watching CSPAN one morning. They included "under God" too. How come they can say "under God" and we can't?



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:14 AM
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not only do i not say the pledge.....


i actually turn away when the veterans march the flag down the street during the july 4th parade.

this is a behavior which is difficult for most people to accept. its not that i hate this country. it is more that i have a hard time justifying the need for nations in general.


i honestly thing the last time i repeated the pledge was back in the third or fourth grade. an ugly thing: it is.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:17 AM
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I haven't recited the pledge for quite some time, I will stand in honor of what our country once was but I will not solute or recite the pledge. It is of my opinion that those who continue to do so are holding onto nothing more than a fairy tale of what we once were while at the same time trapped in a reality that is so distant from the republic we were founded upon. I refuse to participate in the lie that the pledge now represents.

There are other reasons which have been illustrated by others here but this is the main one.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:19 AM
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I don't recite it- EVER.

I was sent to the office in kindergarten for not reciting it.
It's creeped me out ever since.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by Wolf321
reply to post by CosmicEgg
 


...I see nothing wrong in being proud of something that is inherently yours...



this is a bizarre position to take, IMO.


how is it that a nation or ideology is "inherently yours"?


if anything, i feel like i am FORCED to adopt the ideologies of the land i just so happen to inhabit. i certainly never chose most of them.

in my own perfect world, every person at birth would be issued their own personal irrevocable section of the world's resources (land). then everyone could be a nation/state unto themselves.


"....I pledge Allegence to Myself,..."



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:28 AM
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Like everyone, I too learned it in grade school so naturally I was conditioned to stand still and don't move, or else.
Maybe that's why I never really got into the pledge, maybe because I found out later it's been tweaked many times over the years.

Now, when it comes to the Star-Spangled Banner, it's a different story because this one has got what it takes and doesn't sound like it was written by a lawyer.
I start thinking about Jose, and wonder about what it is he can see.


I always try to imagine what it was that F.S Key was witnessing as he wrote it.



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