Ancient Mythologies and the Mysterious Flood

Now let me start by saying, this is purely hypothetical and if you do not apply to the EU/ plasma theories, there is not much point in reading, except or an interesting read. Now let me start by saying it has caught my attention that ancient civilizations have always talked a certain deluge and that the world is not the same as today. Firstly were people on earth before a moon?

The period when the Earth was Moonless is probably the most remote recollection of mankind. Democritus and Anaxagoras taught that there was a time when the Earth was without the Moon. Aristotle wrote that Arcadia in Greece, before being inhabited by the Hellenes, had a population of Pelasgians, and that these aborigines occupied the land already before there was a moon in the sky above the Earth; for this reason they were called Proselenes.
Apollonius of Rhodes mentioned the time “when not all the orbs were yet in the heavens, before the Danai and Deukalion races came into existence, and only the Arcadians lived, of whom it is said that they dwelt on mountains and fed on acorns, before there was a moon.”
Plutarch wrote in The Roman Questions: “There were Arcadians of Evander’s following, the so-called pre-Lunar people.” Similarly wrote Ovid: “The Arcadians are said to have possessed their land before the birth of Jove, and the folk is older than the Moon.” Hippolytus refers to a legend that “Arcadia brought forth Pelasgus, of greater antiquity than the moon.” Lucian in his Astrology says that “the Arcadians affirm in their folly that they are older than the moon.”
Censorinus also alludes to the time in the past when there was no moon in the sky.
Some allusions to the time before there was a Moon may be found also in the Scriptures. In Job 25:5 the grandeur of the Lord who “Makes peace in the heights” is praised and the time is mentioned “before [there was] a moon and it did not shine.” Also in Psalm 72:5 it is said: “Thou wast feared since [the time of] the sun and before [the time of] the moon, a generation of generations.” A “generation of generations” means a very long time. Of course, it is of no use to counter this psalm with the myth of the first chapter of Genesis, a tale brought down from exotic and later sources.
The memory of a world without a moon lives in oral tradition among the Indians. The Indians of the Bogota highlands in the eastern Cordilleras of Colombia relate some of their tribal reminiscences to the time before there was a moon. “In the earliest times, when the moon was not yet in the heavens,” say the tribesmen of Chibchas
There are currently three theories of the origin of the moon:

1) The Moon originated at the same time as the Earth, being formed substantially from the same material, aggregating and solidifying.

2) The Moon was formed not in the vicinity of the Earth, but in a different part of the solar system, and was later captured by the Earth.

3) The Moon was originally a portion of the terrestrial crust and was torn out, leaving behind the bed of the Pacific.

All three theories claim the presence of the Moon on an orbit around the Earth for billions of years. Mythology may supply each of these views with some support (Genesis I for the first view; the birth of Aphrodite from the sea for the third view; Aphrodite’s origin in the disruption of Uranus, and also the violence of Sin—the Babylonian Moon—seems to support the second view).
Since mankind on both sides of the Atlantic preserved the memory of a time when the Earth was without the Moon, the first hypothesis, namely, of the Moon originating simultaneously with the Earth and in its vicinity, is to be excluded, leaving the other two hypotheses to compete between themselves.
We have seen that the traditions of diverse peoples offer corroborative testimony to the effect that in a very early age, but still in the memory of mankind, no moon accompanied the Earth.Since human beings already peopled the Earth, it is improbable that the Moon sprang from it: there must have existed a solid lithosphere, not a liquid earth. Thus while I do not claim to know the origin of the Moon, I find it more probable that the Moon was captured by the Earth. Such an event would have occurred as a catastrophe. If the Moon’s formation took place away from the Earth, its composition may be quite different.
There is no evidence to suggest whether the Moon was a planet, a satellite of another planet, or a comet at the time of its capture by the Earth. Whatever atmosphere it may have had was pulled away by the Earth, by other contacting bodies, or dissipated in some other way.
Since the time the Moon began to accompany the Earth, it underwent the influence of contacts with comets and planets that passed near the Earth in subsequent ages. The mass of the Moon being less than that of the Earth, the Moon must have suffered greater disturbances in cosmic contacts. During these contacts the Moon was not carried away: this is due to the fact that no body more powerful than the Earth came sufficiently close to the Moon to take it away from the Earth for good; but in the contacts that took place the Moon was removed repeatedly from one orbit to another.
The variations in the position of the Moon can be read in the variations in the length of the month. The length of the month repeatedly changed in subseqent catastrophic events—and for this there exists a large amount of supporting evidence. In these later occurrences the Moon played a passive role, and Zeus in the Iliad advised it (Aphrodite) to stay out of the battle in which Athene and Ares (Venus and Mars) were the main contestants.
Now the deluge,

The scriptural deluge is regarded by historians and critical exegetes as a legendary product. “The legend of a universal deluge is in itself a myth and cannot be anything else.” It is “most nakedly and unreservedly mythological.”
The tradition of a universal deluge is told by all ancient civilizations, and also by races that never reached the ability to express themselves in the written symbols of a language. It is found all over the world, on all continents, on the islands of the Pacific and Atlantic, everywhere. Usually it is explained as a local experience carried from race to race by word of mouth. The work of collating such material has repeatedly been done, and it would only fatigue the reader were I to repeat these stories as told in all parts of the world, even in places never visited by missionaries.
The rest of the collected traditions are also not identical in detail, and are sometimes very different in their setting from the Noah story, but all agree that the earth was covered to the mountain tops by the water of the deluge coming from above, and that only a few human beings escaped death in the flood. The stories are often accompanied by details about a simultaneous cleavage of the earth.
In pre-Columbian America the story of a universal flood was very persistent; the first world-age was called Atonatiuh, or the age that was brought to its end by a universal deluge. This is written and illustrated in the ancient codices of the Mexicans and was narrated to the Spaniards who came to the New Continent. The natives of Australia, Polynesia, and Tasmania, discovered in the seventeenth century, related almost identical traditions.
Clay tablets with inscriptions concerning the early ages and the deluge were found in Mesopotamia. Their similarity to the biblical account, and to the story of the Chaldean priest Berosus who lived in the Hellenistic age, caused a great sensation at the end of the last century and the beginning of the current one. On this sensational discovery was based the sensational pamphlet Babel und Bibel by Friedrich Delitsch (1902) who tried to show in it that the Hebrews had simply borrowed this story, along with many others, from the Babylonian store of legends.
But if here and there the story of the flood could be said to have been borrowed by the scriptural writer from the Babylonians, and by some natives from the missionaries, in other cases no such explanation could be offered. The indigenous character of the stories in many regions of the world makes the borrowing theory seem very fragile.
Geologists see vestiges of diluvial rains all over the world; folklorists hear the story of a universal flood wherever folklore is collected; historians read of a universal flood in American manuscripts, in Babylonian clay tablets and in the annals of practically all cultured peoples. But the climatologists make it very clear that even should the entire water content of the atmosphere pour down as rain, the resulting flood could not have covered even the lowland slopes, far less the peaks of the mountains, as all accounts insist that this deluge did.

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Now some people take accounts from ancient races as mythological, but you really have to address that every ancient culture, from Japan, to aboriginals in the Americas, to Babylon even ancient Greece all address a flood. You can dismiss it, or accept some kind of catastrophe happened.
Well the website is there for you to look at, there are references provided on it showing the amount of different materials telling about civilizations that talk about a time when there was no moon and a time when a flood happen. Enjoy!

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Continued...

First, according to the Hindu account, vast clouds gathered which “overshadowed the entire world.”

“These ominous clouds . . . rumbling and shooting lightning, overspread the sky.” They were “as vast as mountains.” “Some were dusky, some crimson, some white, some brilliant (in hue). Other sources describe them as yellow, or azure, or red. “Loud in roar and mighty in size they fill the entire sky.” They were “fringed with lightning, meteors and thunderbolts.” Then, “rumbling aloud with lightning [they] poured torrential streams thick like chariot wheels.” They “rained with a sullen roar, inundating the three worlds with ceaseless downpour of torrents. . . .” “And then there were seen on all sides the four oceans engulfing with tempestuous waves the whole surface of the earth.” All creation was “smitten by the luminous dense floods.”
In the beginning of the deluge the nova in the sky shone through the splendor of the illuminated skies and through the sheets of rain, ever increasing in intensity.The Biblical expression “the Lord sitteth upon the flood” was an apt description of the blazing nova above the waters of the Deluge. It has a Babylonian counterpart in the title of Tammuz as bel girsu: “lord of the flood.” The nova blazed terrifically, but soon the light became diffused, the shadows grew ever dimmer, the world that was all splendor and light turned gloomier and gloomier; the outpouring waters grew ever thicker; the clouds of dust darkened ever more the sky, and finally the drama of what was taking place on earth went on in darkness.
The Deluge was not a peaceful though abundant rain filling the earth with water, rising ever higher. Ancient sources give a description of the Deluge that differs greatly from the pageant of showers pouring from above on a peaceful land and peaceful sea.

Most of these texts are from ancient cultures, Mesopotamian, Babylon, some mythologies of aboriginals and Japanese. There is also the underwater pyramid formation that needs more recognitions as well. All these things cannot be dismissed. Perhaps Atlantis was real?

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www.varchive.org...

Refrences:

A. Loisy, Les mythes babyloniens et les premiers chapitres de la genese (Paris, 1901).

R. Andree, Die Flutsagen (1891); Sir J.G. Frazer, Folk-lore in the Old Testament (London, 1918); M. Winternitz, Die Flutsagen des Alterthums und des Natuervoelker

E.g., the Malaya story in Andree, Die Flutsagen, p. 29. s

[Cf. the Vatican Codex, first published by Humboldt, and the accounts of Ixtlilxochitl and Veytia among others.]

[Cf. A. C. Caillot, Mythes, legendes, et traditions des Polynesiens (Paris, 1914); H. H. Howorth, The Mammoth and the Flood (London, 1887), pp. 455ff.]

Berosus’ story of the Deluge is quoted in Eusebius’ Praeparatio Evangelica Bk. IX, ch. 12, and in Cyril’s Contra Julianum, Bk. I.

Skanda Purana in S. Shastri, The Flood Legend in Sanscrit Literature (Delhi, 1950), p. 87.

Agneya Purana in ibid., p. 50.

Kalika Purana in ibid., p. 103.

Vishnu Purana in ibid., p. 50.

Skanda Purana in ibid., p. 88.

Bhagavata Purana in ibid., p. 61.

Kalika Purana in ibid., p. 103.

Bhagavata Purana in ibid., p. 61.

Ibid., loc. cit.

Cf. the Babylonian expression in the wailings for Tammuz: “The shining ocean to thy perditions has taken thee.” (S. Langdon, Tammuz and Ishtar [Oxford, 1914], p. 15).

Psalm 29.

S. Langdon, Babylonian Liturgies (Paris, 1913), p. 96.

The Visuddhi-Magga, transl. by H. C. Warren in Buddhism in Translations (Cambridge, Mass., 1896), Chap. xiii, p. 327.

[The knowledge that the water of the oceans came from the most part from Saturn and that the waters were salty was combined by the Greeks into a metaphor which has the sea being the “tear of Kronos.” This tradition originated with the Pythagorean school and may derive ultimately from Egypt. (Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride, ch. 32: “According to what the Pythagoreans say, the sea is the tear of Kronos.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, V. 8, 20f.: “This the Pythagoreans believed . . . comparing the sea to a tear of Kronos.” The same is found in a fragment of Aristotle in the edition of V. Rose (Teubner, 1886), no. 196. Cf. Porphyry’s Life of Pythagoras (Nauck ed., p. 39). Cf. also E. Lefebure, Etudes Egyptologiques, Vol. III: Le Mythe osirien (Paris, 1874), p. 125: . . . et il faut sans doute regarder comme égyptienne cette croyance des Pythagoriciens rapportée par Plutarch, que la mer était une larme de Kronos. . . .” ].

So is the idea that earth somehow captured the moon in relatively recent history and gravity 'sucked' all the water off the moon onto the surface of the earth?

I believe the consensus is something like :

Two proto planets in the same orbit around the sun, 1 Earth and 2 Thea smashed into eachother causing the earth to completely melt and merge with Thea and a part that ripped of the planet and thea formed our moon.

The moon only cooled down faster because it was smaller.

Great thread by the way.
I never heard of anything like it

The two big problems that I see (well, three) are:

* not every culture has a myth of a flood (or global flood). Some of the reported flood stories only happened after missionaries came in and taught Biblical Christianity to everyone.

* there is no evidence of a global flood.

* there IS plenty of evidence of a moon existing before humans evolved. I'm working on a huge dinosaur vertebra (the bone is about as big as a large man sitting curled up on a chair). In the rock around it and in rocks all over the land are tidal marks that show monthly tides. The rock is over 67 million years old. There are older tidal marks.

I agree it was an interesting read and intriguing. I dont know enough about the subject to comment otherwise. S&F for your interesting ideas.

reply to post by Byrd


The moon part, seems iffy to me. But if you are into the EU model, like I said in the opening post, there are some explanations that could cause tides without the moon, but of course all of this is hypothesis.

Even though not every civilization do not have a flood story, a lot do, you cannot rule you a possibility of a flood because every civilization does not have one.

reply to post by Byrd


If there was no moon, of course the suns gravity would cause a huge amount of tidal waves. But when reading the link I provided it explains more stuff. It talks about civilizations talking about the sun not being where it was, the moon being brighter then it is now other stuff like that.
Now if you subscribe to plasma cosmology/electric it is possible that this earth was not in the same position as it were today. Of course there are better people to explain plasma cosmology on here like Mnemeth and Sirnex, but I am just laying out the basics talking about ancient civilizations and some of the roles of plasma, like the link talks about. It talks about how Saturn and how earth could be a common satellite of Saturn or Jupiter and moved to its current position though plasma/electrical currents (now i am probably wrong here but I will recheck what I said). So many bizarre mythological details don't make any sense in the real world, such as flying and fire-breathing dragons, and countless others. It is easy to dismiss them as the product of creative imagination, but this attitude runs up against an insuperable difficulty - these seemingly impossible motifs can be found around the globe. It is very difficult to understand how creative imagination could explain such consistent and recurring motifs, as a number of leading anthropologists and mythologists have acknowledged. A lot of this stuff can be explained by plasma anomalies.
Now I am not going against the mainstream model, but I am saying plasma is likely to play a role in our solar system at least. We cannot dismiss ancient mythologies and the stuff they talk about. Why did the early astronomers celebrate the planet Saturn as the first Supreme God? Why did the ancients sacrifice their children to Saturn? Why was the original Sabbath, the most sacred day of the week, named after Saturn? Why did ancient nations invoke Saturn as the primeval Sun? Why did early astronomers declare that Saturn ruled from the celestial pole? Why do so many modern religions carry remnants of Saturn worship?? The planet Venus also plays an important role in ancient mythology. Converging ancient images include the Babylonian 'torch' and 'bearded star', the Mexican 'smoking star', the Peruvian 'long-haired' star, the Egyptian Great Star 'scattering its flame in fire', and further widespread imagery from around the globe -- that of Venus as a flaming serpent or dragon in the sky. Now there are pictures of Saturn’s lightning storms, A LOT of them resemble dragons serpents. It would explain a lot of ancient people to see dragons in the sky because they were so close to Saturn they could see it.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by Maddogkull]

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This is a storm on Saturn, now you can say this is caused from an overactive imagination, but surely in some way the earth might o been positioned on Saturn and they could see this kind of stuff. I believe then you would not need a moon, or that there might of been a different moon, one of the moons of Saturn of Jupiter might of been earth’s moon, corresponding the mythologies of the moon being brighter then it is today. There could still be tides because of this. But of course I am in no way saying this is truth, I am just putting it out there.

You guys decide

reply to post by Maddogkull


I must concede I am not really a teacher by trade, the name “teacher” in my avatar was merely a choice to convey one who shares information.

Unless you count my Fire Instructor Certificates, that is.

I think the OP may be better versed in some aspects of the material presented than i. however I am familiar with many deluge stories from various cultures from around the globe.

Hesitantly, unfortunately, we must accept that Byrd may be right in his assessment, that missionaries with their agendas may have altered some aspects of the truth and histories from cultures they frequently visited and encountered. Social engineering is consistent with their intentions.

Having read through the OP’s thread twice, If I had to I would give it at least a B+ for content and material presented. I found it to be … intriguing.

I haven’t much to say about the moon theory, but I do remember hearing or reading about animal bones with markings on them that date prior to 10,000 B.C. that were interpreted as lunar calendar markings. Which is a long time to hold and carry a oral tradition down through the ages to the references you supplied, though I am not prepared to refute the information, nor call the enormity of the masses from those cultures liars.

For some reason when I was reading the moon part of the OP’s post Lovell’s transmission of “be advised, there is a santa clause” kept going through my head. Dark side of the moon stuff.

Here is some information you may or may not find to be relevant to the conversation, but I would like to share.

We, you and I, and our ancestors you reference (the ancients) did share (allegedly) 99.7+% of the same identical dna. So, logically, how different can our magniloquence be? Perhaps another little mystery?

Although, personally, people may not think secrets (seek writs) have any bearing on this conversation, I thought I might throw out a few examples of how we may be encoding the languages we use to communicate with more information than we currently understand…

I was taught in third grade by Mrs. Yates (30+ yrs ago) that compound words are formed by words & syllables that have meanings themselves. And, who am I to call Mrs. Yates a liar?

Example: disc + low + sure = disclosure.

If the true “powers that be” were fair and just, then perhaps they put the true deluge in all, which caused us to be a little delusional. perhaps it was not only a flood of water, but a flood of wisdom and knowledge, … maybe.
But I have been known to be wrong at least once, unless I am mistaken. So consider the information I share in this post, and think of it what you will.

the following two phrases contain the exact same letters & symbols:
Patrick Stewart
Now if I could exert enough free will to turn that “w” upside down into a “m”….
And if I could exert enough will to re-arrange the letters….
I’m Star Trek Capt.
Yes, Patrick Stewart, an actor who played a star trek captain.
Does this appear to be a truism?

I plugged the words “Ancient and Lost Civilizations” into an “anagram” generator and received 37,038 results:
Here are two phrases with the same identical ingredients, the same exact letters:
Atlantis zodiac Visit Clone Inn …. (we share 99.7+% same dna)
Ancient and Lost Civilizations

Here are few more examples of groups of “anagrams”:
Usama Bin Laden
Mainland Abuse

The great pyramid
Tetrahedra pi gym

Time travel accident
Directive: act mental

Moron, A Superconductives’ Solutions
Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordos Seclorum
On Apes' Code: Voluminous Instructors

I think some of this information may be useful in our quest to interpret our information that is …. More than a few generations old … our “amnesia” we have concerning our own origins.

Great post, and thanks for sharing!

End Transmission,
ET

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


Agreed. But I am not here to debunk the moon I am here just stating facts that ancient civilizations wrote as mythologies. Some of the documents by them are from documents made by them, not Christian missionary’s. But the ones describing dragons, Christian missionaries would not even consider putting that in considering the manner of that they are dragons. I doubt Christian missionaries went to every civilization tat talked about a flood and changed it into their own liking.