I don't care about the Gaza issue.

I've been here and been seeing a continuing trend of taking sides on this issue. That is, what is happening in Gaza and the current issues with Israel's occupation. I've been following for a while. I started out on Israel's side. And thus far I cannot honestly say that I find Israel "damned" yet for its actions. But I can say this. I don't care.

That is right. Allow me to take a moment to step out of this deep social crevice here at ATS. Because I really am not going to take a side. I don't care.

Again I want to say that if I HAD to pick a side ,it would be Israel. Because they are not primitive and focused on religion 100%. That's relativistic of course. For both sides have religious ideals. But I have to say Israel is not as high as Palestine.

I probably sound a bit contradictory, but that is if you had a gun to my face and I had to pick.

In truth, I don't have a side.

The reason for this is simple:

-Both nations are a democracy.

-Both nations voted in war hawks, with quite a lead as well

-Both have become barbarians.

-Both have lost their right to war. Their cause bella.


And it is for this reason that I, as an American observer, cannot honestly say I see innocent people on either side. I understand that there are people who did not vote for this. I understand that there are people who do not desire war. That's great. Really, I know. I am not generalizing here.

The point is, that at this point, I've not even seen much out of those folk's mouths, pretty much making them as bad as the aggressors.


So thus. I cannot honestly see a good side in this situation. My observation tells me that Palestine started this conflict, but Israel lowered itself to barbaric actions as well.


So do tell me ATS. Why should I feel bad about not caring? Why should I pick a side?

In the end, My dream is a big fat UN state. No Palestine. No Israel. A UN run state. For 100 years. Let the entire generation of war hawks die off. They follow UN laws. They remain free and open. And I really don't see any other way to stop this nonsense.

In the end, I understand the points on both sides. But in the end, when all is calculated, I cannot see innocence here. I Cannot see a good or bad side. I cannot see a moral and immoral side. I see no angels versus daemons.

I see childish reasons to bicker. i see war. I see the cancer that is war itself expand.


I don't see the US as "under Israeli control" That's just silly. Big nations control small nations. Small nations do not control big nations.

I DO view Israel as an American Colony. I see it the other way around, you see. I think America control Israel. I think it's their sure ally in needing a base.

I do not see this conflict as some evil plot by people. I see it as a war that goes back to before both Judaism and Islam. I see a war that, quite frankly, the same patterns are beginning to show. If doing the same thing over and over and hoping for something different is inanity, then call the entire place insane.



And to put it to you straight, I have to tell you what I hear inside. You know, how when you are really not sure, you go down and think real deep to hear your conscious tell you the right way? Well I have to admit something:

When I try to seek my subconscious for a real personal decision, I do not see something Good. The deepest parts of me tell me that the best solution to the problem is a nuclear bomb erasing the entire region into atomic glass. Nothing left for either side . No temple, no Dome. Nothing.

This is not an easy thing to admit. And I do not like it from my own reality. It makes me ponder why? Why would my conscious, the thing that is suppose to b so pure and filled of peace and joy, telling me this?

Isn't the consciousness suppose to be good?

It tells me that the death of everyone there is the best medicine for the whole planet. That the entire planet would be better if Palestine and Israel turned to smoke and fire and were no more and inhospitable.



So in the end, I have to make a decision don't I? Wll guess I have anti gravity. Because while sides are drawn, I'm hovering, looking down and seeing so many here, almost all of you, fall down into a conflict. Becoming infected with the cancer. Causing it to spread far and wise.

I have my cure for this cancer. I won't care about it.

Enjoy your Falloutusalem.

99% agreed! The ONLY reason I care even a little is because Israel keeps dragging the US into this BS.

I'm with you OP, let them destroy each other

reply to post by Gorman91


I'm with you. If the whole world just ignored them and decided that they were all just going to deal with what ever aftermath the business brought about, it would be better for everyone.

Both are attention whores. Let them figure it out

You can tell folks you're going to kick their ass for a long time. Sooner or later you need to actually kick it or shut up about it.

reply to post by Gorman91


Correct: Take no sides. Mind own business.

Get back to work and live life to the fullest in the meantime.

reply to post by pikypiky


Oh I do take sides on many issues. But things like this? I'm not sold to either one. I simply don't see much difference anymore. Like I said, I used to. Now a days no longer. Barbarianism is a cancer.

Really? You felt the need to make a thread about this? What a waste of time. It belongs right up there with why homosexuals are wrong and the real voice of god...

reply to post by Gorman91

In truth, I don't have a side.

The reason for this is simple:

-Both nations are a democracy.

First problem, Palestine is still under occupation, there is no Palestinian nation. So calling it a Democratic nation is more or less false.

When Hamas was chosen, what happened?

-Both nations voted in war hawks, with quite a lead as well

Umm very narrow vision you have there, as if you suddenly forgot the rest of the history:
"Read the end of this post"

One of the reasons why I take sides:
www.youtube.com...

-Both have become barbarians.

Nope, Palestinians are merely resisting against the Zionist occupation, expansionism, and terrorism. For you to call them barbarians, is like for me to call self defense barbarianism.

And when you get punched in the face, and get your wallet stolen, and when you try to fight back, I'll call you a barbarian and tell the cops it was your fault.

-Both have lost their right to war. Their cause bella.

No comment.

Now read this, sorry it is from another thread but it outlines why I take sides.


Expanding Jewish settlements is not protecting its citizens, continuing the occupation is not protecting its citizens.

Palestinians have peacefully protested these actions for a long time until the 2nd intifada when they just lost it and the extreme faction of the Palestinian people were given the thumbs up to fight and defend the Palestinians.

After all that was the reason for choosing Hamas.

How can we solve the issue?

The issue can be solved when there is balance, when Israel's security is truly at risk, home made fireworks being thrown towards Israel is not a security risk, car crashes kill more people in Israel than those home made fireworks.

That being said, once Israel truly sees security risk arising in regards to its continuous settlement expansions, and continuous occupations, that is when it will come to the table and start negotiating for a peace plan.

Israel has nothing to gain from peace:

stirred an outburst of anger amongst Palestinians, exasperated by the stagnation of the peace process, as well as by the continuing occupation and settlement expansion.

The violent repression of Palestinian demonstrations demanding the immediate ending of the occupation killed more than 200 Palestinians in one month, of which one third was under 17 years old. To respond to this brutality, the Intifada became militarised as from the beginning of November 2000.

Palestinians peacefully protested for a long time, I feel for them.

Among the many reasons for the start of the second Palestinian intifada in September 2000, the massive expansion of Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza must count as the most important.


The 1993 Oslo Accords signed by the PLO and Israel were meant to reconcile Palestinian aspirations for self-determination and statehood and the existence of Israel. In fact, an aggressive policy of settlement expansion and consolidation took place over the following seven years. More Arab land was taken over and more Palestinian homes were bulldozed, more exclusively Jewish roa

In between the time of the Oslo Accord and the 2nd intifada:

When Yasser Arafat and Yitzak Rabin shook hands on the White House lawn in September 1993 there were about 115,000 Jewish settlers in West Bank and Gaza. By the time of the second intifada seven years later there were more than 200,000 of them. Reports suggest another 1,500 families (17,000 people) have been added to this total during 2001, more than the 400 settler families that have moved back to Israel under the impact of the intifada.

And Seriously, GAZA:

Gaza, one of the most densely populated tracts of land in the world, is home to 1,178,000 Palestinians, 33 per cent of whom live in United Nations-funded refugee camps.
Gaza is also home to 6,900 Jewish settlers. Yet the Israeli-controlled areas and settlements take up about 40 per cent of Gaza's land. Israel controls all external borders, crossing points and major roads in Gaza.

No justice no peace, don't forget that.

reply to post by azrael36


Only difference is that those two others were picking sides. This is a cool thread. This is a Switzerland thread. This is a "who cares" thread. Neutrality.


I just want to know why do people pick sides or even get involved with it.

reply to post by azrael36


I agree, ... I just hate opinion threads period. Like " why i hate this" " why these people need to die" blah blah blah. Yet I think it's worse to make a thread about NOT having an opinion at all, at least the other people have something to rave about.

it's kinda ego maniacle, to make a whole thread so everyone can discuss your single opinion.

I don't like eggs, but im not gonna make a thread about it.

reply to post by LittleSecret


Gain? IDK, maybe not getting blown up and under the risk of getting blown up.

The Caterpillar that eats all the leaf falls. The caterpillar that leaves some left, survives.

Israel has hundreds fold to gain from peace. The are sitting on THE MAJOR center of 3 religions. Do you have any idea how much money is in that area in peace and without fear? Millions of people visiting during Easter, Winter, and September?

They would never have to worry about a thing again.



Its nice they peacefully protest. but they stopped. So I could care less about what they did. if you want to count the current situation on past events, then no one is innocent. Seeing as this war goes far back before either religion.

As Gandhi put it, the second a peaceful group commits violence, they have lost all credibility and been proven liars.

Again, i really don't care. I have decided. Neither nation is worthy of existence.

They have proven incompatible. So no more.

Rest assured, if Israel was weak, they'd be getting occupied. That;s what's called war.

You see, in war, the goal is to annihilate the enemy. In this situation, there are no civilians. Thus winning the war is, by definition, genocide.



So again, don;t pile on facts. because if you keep going down "who was nice first", no one wins. As both decided to fight.


As to when hamas was voted in?

Funny you claim i forget history.

www.washingtonpost.com...

[edit on 28-6-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91


OK since I think you are not capable of absorbing facts, and not capable of connecting the dots, and not capable of responding to my post directly I'll join you

Do you believe in self defense?

If I punch you in the face, kick your A$$, take your money, continually claim your property is mine, what would you do?

Would you fight, or would you call the cops?

What if the world you are living in has the law which gives ultimate VETO power to certain nations?

Now you are left hopeless, because every time you go to the cops and complain about me, I go to my uncle who keeps pressing the VETO button and I get away with it.

So what would you do in a state of hopelessness?

Are you one of those individuals who believes that peace is better than justice? Or that there can be peace without justice?

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by azrael36

 

Only difference is that those two others were picking sides. This is a cool thread. This is a Switzerland thread. This is a "who cares" thread. Neutrality.


I just want to know why do people pick sides or even get involved with it.

People get involved because they have a moral backbone and sense of justice. Those who don't care are either ignorant of the situation, or useless, selfish products of a useless senseless culture.

If you saw some thugs beating up some defenseless people and stealing their stuff - apparently you would say "Who cares, none of my business." Anyone with a soul would at least feel pity for the victim, and probably voice it - even if they felt helpless to assist.

This is what Israel vs Palestine means to those who understand the issue.

If you cannot see the issue in this light, it means that you need more information - or it means that you are a soulless shell.



[edit on 28-6-2010 by Amagnon]

reply to post by LittleSecret


I'd leave. Simple as that. Because unlike Palestine or Israel, I don't take value on where land is. Land is land. Weather I was born on it or have a home there does not matter. I'm leaving under your conditions. And if there's no more land? Guess I'm going to make my own land where ever I end up. Not going to fight though. Oh sure I believe in self defense. But there's no logic to that in the world you created for me.


Not going to fight an inanimate item like land in the world you are putting me in. I'm going to wait it out, Because the world you put me in is unstable and incapable of continuing. It will fall. And my patience will be rewarded in tenfold as I take the ashes of the old world and make my own.

So you see. I would never have to worry about a thing. I'd just wait until you die of your own nature and then take your land.

reply to post by Amagnon


I do understand the issue.

It's not what you are describing though.

It's two old senile fools battling to the death.

Sure I feel pity. i feel pity for their idiocy. Fighting in their elder years. I'd at least try to stop it. But as I said. I am past that. People have tried to stop it. You can't say it wasn't tried. It failed.

Thus I have given up. If two fools don't understand, maybe they will when they see they bleed the same blood.

i generally agree with the OP.

is it impossible to have a certain amount of peace like north korea vs south korea & india vs pakistan do for eg?

or will there only be lasting peace when both sides have nukes aimed at each other?

reply to post by FuGGer


Probably not.

The reason Pakistan and India don't attack each other is, for simple reasons, they are educated and know it makes no sense. Maybe it is the more peaceful religions in the area, or the more peaceful cultures, or maybe its because they have a history of working together to solve a problem. After all, besides Egypt, India is a place where, rather than fight, the first people simply accepted their differences and made on religion out of it (Hinduism).

Can't say N Korea and S Korea so much as they are at it again.

Really you got a good example with pak and Ind.

I suppose they are simply more reasonable. There's really no other reason.

Originally posted by Gorman91
Again I want to say that if I HAD to pick a side ,it would be Israel. Because they are not primitive and focused on religion 100%.

How do you figure that when it's a homeland for JEWS.

If you ask me. Israel is more at fault than anyone else in the region. But the blame should fall to the international community for putting them there in the first place.

It's our problem and we're going to suffer if they fight. Israel and it's neighbours don't care about how much we have to pay for oil or what condition our economies are in.

They're all collectively a threat to humanity and Western Civilisation and I hope our leaders have the good sense to destroy them, before they destroy us.

Glass the whole area. And let their respective gods sort them out.

One other thing that I would like to bring up that has been bugging me for some time, but I never really voiced it - it probably deserves its own thread.

The issue is that of social conditioning, mind control - and the paradox I see repeated over and over - by otherwise sane seeming people.

I hear the following; "There is no simply no justification for violence."

When these words come from an American - I wonder if they have been suddenly unplugged from reality. I observe the countless wars that country has been involved, and continues to be involved in - its pride in the military, and its buildup of weapons.

What is happening is they are regurgitating social conditioning; and it is a paradox when faced with the reality of their support for international violence on massive scales.

What that message really means is this; "There is no justification for non state sanctioned violence." Or even further; "There is simply no justification for citizens to use violence against the state." Or one step further; "Regardless of how badly the state oppresses you, you are not authorized to resist."

It is not only the right of individuals who's basic human rights are infringed to resist, it is their duty, and it is the only thing they can do to maintain human dignity, and not become equivalent to an animal or slave.

reply to post by belial259


Well that's because, honestly, the Christian Arabians who visited my local church every year have a first person perspective. They hide in many Islamic nations, but are "mainly" free in Philistine. of course those terms are relativistically similar to saying you're a free black man in 1870 Georgia.

The point is that Israel was their asylum. Before the racism started to grow like a cancer, of course. Now most of them have run out of there. The Palestinians say "F your Jesus" and the Jews say go home. Quite ironic, what with Islam accepting Jesus as a lovely prophet.


But that is the reason. Their first person perspectives. They are not free, but they are relatively more freer in Israel. But again, that ain't saying much, what with Israel's war making them run away from their livelihoods.

reply to post by Amagnon


I stated that I believe in defending yourself. But that peace should be first priority. It DID take us 20 years before an actual revolt against the British.

I also stated that in the conditions there it is illogical TOO fight. It should be clear and obvious that the current cancerous cycle of war and destruction are not sustainable. Waiting it out seems the only logical way to see it end. let the glass each other and then what's left is yours, without ever doing anything.