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The Filesharing Conspiracy

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posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 06:29 PM
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Originally posted by Kaspar64
The greedy fat cats in suits are to blame for their own demise. I mean come on - RRP £49.99 for an Xbox 360 game that my son can complete in several hours ? I couldn't justify paying it and wouldn't on principal, and before anybody fires a shot at me, yes I know there are many people to pay out of the revenue and sometimes years of development etc but really ? £50 ? Then the pressure on me to buy because his mates have it is immense !



You can rent it. The store pays a higher initial cost because of profit loss. Plus you could teach your kid the simple fact of life, you don't always get what you want. Sometimes you have to work hard and get it and sometimes you just have to bypass it because it isn't worth the cost.

Of course teaching your kid to be a thief is much better.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by MikeNice81]

[edit on 28-6-2010 by MikeNice81]




posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


I am 101% FOR free downloading,be it anything. Because MONEY is an ARITIFICIAL and worthless and actually meaningless(it is only brain-washed generations upon generations that give any worth to money in their MINDS only),there is no real worth in money,beyond the trees or cotton used ot manufacture it.

money is DYING breed...it should have never existed at all in a perfect world,but it was like al lthings ,a PHASE in the infinite evolution of the soul, part of the life lessons on Earth, to grow BEYOND the superficial MONEY values. What you are talknig about is GROWING PAINS. and yeah,it is uncomfortable ofr many artists, in fact it shoudl hurt liek hell because that's what growing pains is all about.

Human society as a whole will overcome the values of superficial things like money SOON, possibly within this century even.And I mean money in all it's forms,both electronic and physical.

Money never had any value attached to it,it's all indoctrination of the masses,nothing more. People aren't bright enough ot realzie that the onyl thing with anything is their own labor and anyones labor.

Before money existed on Earth, humans traded things, that could have evolved into VOLUNTARY sharing and giving,sort of liek the Venus project now.
But we made a step backwards when money was invented.

Everything is free on Earth,because you DID NOT CREATE ANYTHING! all the STUFF like houses and money and cars and clothes and food - all the essentials are grown and produced by EARTH, same with your BODY(it grew in your mothers womb only thanks to minerals from Earth that she consumed and ate)...the house and car is simply the human assembling the thing with resources that are already available to ALL.
Now I will tell you what will happen on Earth in the coming centuries - humans will start doing the things they WANT to do and LIKE to do ,goes for everyone. Anything to do with monetary values will be non-existent,so all the jobs there will dissapear. FACT is, with all the supressed tech for decades now, humankind can offord to do only the things they LIKE to do...as a job...be it paint, heal, build etc. Machines and high-tech,even quantum technology exists for a long time,and is being continually supressed by the powers that be,for obviosu reasons.(but not goodnatured)

There's no need for anybody to work at car plants, or clothing plants in China and India,where millions strive to earn a buck - little do they know that THOSE jobs don't need a human to do them for a long time.
Industrialization on all levels will be rising FAST in the comnig years,millions upon millions will lsoe their jobs simply due to the fact the job doesnt require humans,and with human numbers reaching 7 billion in a year or 2, the number will only grow in the near future.

Less and less paying jobs,more and more people. does nto compute.
People should start thinking outside the box.

In the future, everyoen will do what he wants,and since he LOVES what he does,he will not need any payment for others to enjoy his work,and THUS it will be for ALL - what you get is a society that will be giving and sharing volunteeraly with each other...and machinery can do all the mundane hard tiresoem things for a while now,it's jsut STILL being supressed and being revealed little by little- much too slow for my taste.Those who are holding it back will have justice and karma served to them though.


I don't denounce or condemn downloading at all. FREE is the natural form of things ot begin with. It's the HUMANS who are lving out of sync with natural laws of nature, that is why we are suffering,we are to blame,as a society who wants money and don't push enough for the tech to be revealed NOW.
So if others suffer because soem others download their stuff for free,and those artists stop doing what they do, SO BE IT. Maybe that's what needs ot happen, before peopel realzie that FREE is the only way it's ever going to work.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 06:45 PM
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money is useless, that's why I spend it on cds and dvds of my fav bands.
Also in books, because i so freaking HATE to read on the pc.
(no, really, i live with a very tight budget, think about 170 USD/month, and still, I have a very nice selection of my favourite cds and dvds, it's still small, but growing since my best friend got an international credit card and i can buy used ones from eBay at very low prices)



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 06:57 PM
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I'm a musician and perhaps I have an interesting slant on this topic due to where I've come from to where I am right now. I'll have my first ever CD out next month, super small fry etc (more anon) but all the same I'm really excited about it, because I've always wanted to have a physical album out. But how I got to here...

I've been making music for years, since I was a teenager. Experimenting became hobby became life, really and truly the most important thing in the world to me by a mile. I slogged away at home, using the family home computer and four track tape recorders at first, then moving on to laptop... but never really thought it would ever come to much. Did a few gigs, kept making stuff.

Then I came across a guy from my home town who was abroad and had made a record himself, a bedroom effort. I didn't realise you could do that. I thought you had to make records in studios etc. He got pretty good reviews for it too! It was ramshackle and not high fidelity, but the tunes were good.

About a year later I started playing with this guy and played with him for about a year and half touring etc. At that time I was still making tunes but perhaps without too much confidence in them still. I decided enough was enough and I had to do something about it. I decided to make an EP to download for free. I'd heard about netlabels and Creative Commons for a while but didn't really get what they were about. My intention was just to make this and see what would happen. But, I didn't intend to make just one EP. I intended to make one every week for as long as I could manage it
I'd sat on the stuff for too long, wondering whether it was close to finished or not, so i decided to set this really harsh deadline so that I would be forced to do as much work as I could then just let it go.

In the end, I managed to make 5 in about 7 or 8 weeks. The first one I put up on my own server, but then I started to get in touch with some netlabels to see if anyone was interested in them. Long story short, since Oct last year these EPs have easily been downloaded 15,000 or so times, probably more. I was knocked out by it. So I haven't made any money from those downloads, but there's thousands of people more all over the world who know my music now who didn't 9 months ago. It's kinda mindboggling. And it led to this release that I have coming out. It's super small indie label deal, basically home produced, but I'm thrilled. It's turned into something physical, in a very roundabout way.

I see a few sides to it. A few years ago, maybe it would have been easier for me to get a record out as there were more small independent labels who could still make back money on limited runs. However, the flip side is that I probably wouldn't have been able to make this music 10 yrs ago. I have my own little home studio, it's fantastic and I can make music 24/7 for free here. I can also do odd things, non-standard approaches, with the limited equipment i have - open source to the max. I can't make a living from it, I do other things like jobbing gigs and teaching, but I couldn't expect anything. I know folks who have some really fabulous gigs, playing all over the world on tours, and they still go back to teaching jobs when they get home. It's the way the world is at the moment and you have to get on with it. Do you cling to what you have in the hope that it could make you a living some day, or do you just get yourself out there, make your art and let the world hear it? I chose the second option.


[edit on 28-6-2010 by J.Clear]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 07:01 PM
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I don't see a conspiracy here just a difference of opinion. Most people who fileshare wouldn't buy and those that do usually share thats why it doesn't effect the artist, and i believe that is why it is only classed as a civil crime in the fact that you may face huge fines but not jail time.
If you make copies to sell then it's a different matter as you would be making a profit from someone else's work.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 07:07 PM
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reply to post by Valeri
 


So you plan on bringing people around to your way of thinking by stealing from them?




Everything is free on Earth,because you DID NOT CREATE ANYTHING! all the STUFF like houses and money and cars and clothes and food - all the essentials are grown and produced by EARTH,


Last time I checked houses, food, and clothes all took the input of labor to make them. I have never seen a shirt spring forth from the ground. I have never seen a tree chop it self down, strip its own leaves and bark, turn itself in to planks and then turn in to a house. Throw a hand full of seeds on the ground and see how much comes up. It takes time and work to make the earth suitable for many types of plants and to ensure that they grow properly without being destroyed by birds, bugs, and animals.



the house and car is simply the human assembling the thing with resources that are already available to ALL.


So are you going to go mine the ore and other things to make your own car?




In the future, everyoen will do what he wants,and since he LOVES what he does,he will not need any payment for others to enjoy his work,and THUS it will be for ALL - what you get is a society that will be giving and sharing volunteeraly with each other...and machinery can do all the mundane hard tiresoem things


So you want have to worry about finding a way to provide shelter or food for your family? Technology will take care of it while we all sit around and do nothing? You don't think certain parties will exploit the technology to ensure that they have more than others? You don't think that people will continue to find ways to opress others so that they struggle for a basic living. The rich and powerful will just hand this technology over someday? Oh and the mean time artists are supposed to take the shaft and struggle to survive so that they can lead the revolution?

Have you tried stealing a new Lexus yet since everything is free by nature?

You make no sense.





[edit on 28-6-2010 by MikeNice81]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 07:23 PM
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reply to post by ipaladamus
 

You can go in to almost any music store and listen to any music you want to. You can go to any number of sites and listen w/o downloading before you buy. Previewing music ha been done since sheet music came out. That's a well established standard. So why steal?



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by J.Clear
 





I can't make a living from it, I do other things like jobbing gigs and teaching, but I couldn't expect anything. I know folks who have some really fabulous gigs, playing all over the world on tours, and they still go back to teaching jobs when they get home. It's the way the world is at the moment and you have to get on with it. Do you cling to what you have in the hope that it could make you a living some day, or do you just get yourself out there, make your art and let the world hear it? I chose the second option.


That is great if you choose to give it away. (Congrats on the deal by the way.) However, there are a lot of people in the business because they can't do anything else. What I mean is that when they wake up it is music (or writing or video) full tilt.

I was a successful salesman. I had a luxury car by the time I was 24. I had won several awards. I had worked construction and became a site super before that. There wasn't a job out there that I had tried that made me happy.

Despite all of the money I was making I was unhappy. I had people that loved me and that I loved around me. The thing was though I spent nine to twelve hours a day doing something I hated. I spent more than a third of my life being miserable. I was damn good at it but I was miserable.

So I packed it all up and spent a lot of money learning the art of audio engineering. I got my degree did my internships and went to work in the business. I became noticably happier to anybody that knew me. Former co-workers said they didn't even know I could smile.

Now I'm supposed to give it all up and go back to spending 1/3 of my life being miserable? Why because some jerk thinks my work should be free. Because some thief wants the product that I have helped make as a producer and engineer for free I should be forced to suffer.

Hell I took a hefty pay cut getting in to the business. Now I make 1/5th of what I made just three years ago. Why? Partially because of the economic misfortunes in America. In large part though it is because people see no dishonor in robbing a man of his time and property.

I'm not the only one out there like me. 90% of the people in the business are like me. So are you telling me we should all have to suffer just because that is the way it is?

So now we just let the thieves and the selfish rule what every one else gets to do?

editted to add the last question.



[edit on 28-6-2010 by MikeNice81]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by MikeNice81
 


Why wouldn't you work part-time so that you could make 1/2 of what you were making 3 years ago instead of the 1/5 that you are making know? Then you could make a living and do what you love cause the truth is no matter how wrong it may actually be the filesharing isn't going to stop.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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For sure, no. That's not what I mean. "The "just because that's the way it is" is the part that needs to change. The old point of sale model is going to fail. Absolutely. It's dead and buried. For studios (and audio engineering) to survive, a more successful way of selling the end product will be needed, on a small-scale, small-sale basis or else folks won't have money to pay for studios. Like me. I can't afford mastering at the moment. You are not meant to go back to the way you were, BUT the whole entire macro-structure of the career that you're in is going to have to change. It has here. I'm a promoter too, and over the last few years the indigenous scene here has really started to thrive. It started in a lull, no bands, no records, we got bored and began organising our own thing. Bands can't get deals, decide to make their own thing and tour like crazy, getting sales on the added-value of homemade stuff. Bands group together, form their own little independent labels and scrape together cash for releases. People react to the cottage industry side of it and support them as much as they can. Thanks to them, these labels now can afford to hire yourself for some decent recording. But it's not just full circle again - these new labels are fully savvy on internet and grassroots promotion etc because they've built totally from the ground up in the current era, in the last two to three years literally. They still release the odd free EP from groups, often to back up forthcoming full releases. They release on vinyl, they run singles clubs and loads of limited edition releases and collaborations. They're doing fine for the standard they set, though again it's probably not making a fortune for them. But like you, like me, they're happy in it. I don't know if they'll ever turn it around enough to make a comfortable living enough, but they're better set for how music will need to be marketed in the future than the old model is. Connecting to people, personally. It's harder to steal from a friend. These labels make all their fans feel like they're part of it all.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 08:07 PM
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To follow up to your add-on question, that's exactly the part that needs to change. And in reality, it'll be easier for the little guy than the big guy. If you've integrated your fans and supporters into the process, it's much harder to steal from you. The "simple" part is playing like crazy around the place, hard touring - the part that's the hardest physical drain on you. The other things then are the limited releases, downloads, streaming content, blogs, youtube videos, live streaming of recording sessions etc. Some folks are being really innovative on this front. Get your audience integratively interested in your well-being, almost! That's what the labels are doing here. You can hear their heart beat. That's the enemy of filesharing.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by MikeNice81
reply to post by J.Clear
 


That is great if you choose to give it away. (Congrats on the deal by the way.) However, there are a lot of people in the business because they can't do anything else. What I mean is that when they wake up it is music (or writing or video) full tilt.


[edit on 28-6-2010 by MikeNice81]


Sorry to take another bite at it, but just on this point. I didn't choose to give it away, in one way. I had no other way to get it out. I was totally de-motivated in the current climate. I worried over whether it was good enough to send to a record label, turned the songs over and over again etc. When I came to the solution I came to above, it wasn't just a case of giving it away. It was a now-or-never moment too, to take an experiment in just getting it done and trying to find a way to get it heard. I'm a one man operation and mostly electronic so it's extremely daunting to gig. I didn't know how to get heard, so I tried this. And as it turned out, it was good enough.. but I really, really did not know that at the time. I was just looking for an ear to bend. I am doing the music full-tilt. I just spent 60hrs in a studio this week playing for someone else's record for pretty minimal payment really, because I really really like his music. I can afford at the moment to live like this because I'm not supporting a family at the moment, but I realise that it can't last forever like this. There's every chance unfortunately that I'll become one of these people who has to give it up. But for the moment, right now, I'm giving it absolutely everything I've got for as long as I possibly can.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by Dragonfly79
 

Can't you see the hypocrisy? So-called filesharers demand music be free but are outraged when a musician demands money for his work. I don't get the double standard.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 08:28 PM
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reply to post by debunky
 

Maybe I should start here. What do you think it is I am selling? This might put us on the right track to a better understanding of each other.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
And for those who havent woken up to reality yet: There is a whole generation out there who thinks it is NORMAL to have instant free access to all of these commodities.


A generation who just waits for a movie to comeout on blu-ray and they then torrent it down. Read a review before downloading. Wrinsing utube for music preview to hear what's good.

I just wonder about all the far future trolls who will have decades of film/music/toon/japan stuff backlogs to download and watch. They'll be spoilt for choice and be complete couch potatoes discussing on forums what a great series that one in 2010 was with the other trolls/pirates.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by MikeNice81
I love how you bring up giving back the land I stand on. My Grandfather was half Sioux and Half Cherokee. Sorry but I have a right to be here. That argument goes no where with me.


good because debating about that wasn't the intent, nor was I suggesting that I could comment on whether a decendant of the invading people was any less deserving to live on some land then a decendant of the native/indigenous people who originally owned it.....

I was simply saying that the wider community (in my country at least) are divided about how to reconcile with the indigenous community (apparently) and it seems the whole thing very difficult & complicated to resolve. As mentioned before it was a bad choice..



I said else where stealing a loaf of bread is completely different.


I did NOT read that,
I read what you wrote directly to me,
which was

Piracy is theft. There is no justification for theft.

which is uncompromising, zero flexibility....

It is unfair to suggest it was my oversight that I did not know what you had said in some other conversation I didn't know about & had nothing to do with....!



If you are starving and have no other means to eat, then it may be necessary.


well then we agree to an extent....



Stealing a song you want or a book you want is different. They are luxuries and not necessities. You can live without those things. In fact there are free ones available from people willing to allow free downloading. There are also libraries There is no justification for theft of some one's time, effort, or intellectual property.


most of what you are saying I agree with, but I also believe that common sense should always prevail over 'absolutes'. I also of course will continue to use my common sense to determine my moral obligations from one action to the next..I don't believe in a 'permanent' set of rules..

Hypothetical - if the author is dead, the physical copies of a book limited, rare & collectable, but someone is kind enough to scan the book to the computer, upload it and share it with likeminded researchers like myself,

if i were to download in the above hypothetical, how could you say that what I was doing was wrong?

its ridiculous to think its wrong/bad because,
my actions would be hurting no one.


You are open to being a petty theif


NOT true,
check my posts,
I never say I advocate OR perform petty theft.
that is YOUR assumption.


and I believe that taking something is wrong.


I don't believe there is anything inherently good OR bad about the concept of 'taking' things, but I do know that's not what you meant so to answer what I think you meant...

So do I (think stealing from another is wrong) the family house was broken into when I was a kid & it broke my heart. I worked hard and saved up $200 bucks (not an easy feat for a kid) bought a Yamaha electric keyboard, lost it in months. It sucks, I know.

I've also had my ideas for music stolen,
and not even by anyone hard up for money or anything,
that was worse.

you said there was NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THEFT no matter what, and that is what I was replying to, if you now refer to a conversation you had with someone else in which you said 'stealing to survive another day is fine'
but not 'stealing luxuries' well that's fine and if you'd bothered to ask you'd find out I agree with you.

this was a misunderstanding,
what I am open to is that DIGITAL ITEMS MADE OF 1's & 0's....

CANNOT be subject to the same T&C etc as what I would call "real world" items.

They are a different kettle of fish, surely we can at least agree on that much too? this doesn't mean I'm saying that automatically makes it ok to steal, just that they are different and that I believe in some instances it is fine to share digital files that otherwise would require payment for...

for e.g.
if you want that rare limited to 500 copies 15th century grimoires,
or home made HQ digital recordings of rare psytrance & hip hop vinyl,
or japanese animations that are simply NOT available anywhere else.

the above are the kinds of things I would download.

I would never steal a "real world" item from another man,
Unless it was to save/protect a life, be that mine or someone else's.

there is more to it though,
You can purchase digital content only to have it become corrupt during the download, you can have a virus and lose all you legitimate downloads & have to repurchase everything...the marketplace is not secure enough to be looked at in the same way as 'real world' markets either...

I wonder how many people could live with themselves repurchasing $20,000 of audio production software because the manufacturer was unsympathetic regarding the clients virus situation & only care about the bottom line...
How many of them could still do that while people around them got the same things for free....or if they found out that no laws would be enforced against them...

-B.M

P.S) the problem with an uncompromising view like the one I mistakenly thought you had is that innocent & undeserving people suffer.

There's a woman on the documentary I posted earlier that no one was interested in who stole 1 CD's worth of songs downloaded from limewire or the like, it was a god awful CD that only would have sold for $10 anyway but even new the CD would cost on $30 dollars & remember that all she got was the 'audio' content of the product, in a digital format.

Sony sued her successfully for HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS,

the poor woman is raising 3-4 kids on her own, working 2 jobs & feeding them 'no brand' food because Sony+court decided it was ok for her to pay all court fee's etc, lawyers costs, etc because she didn't settle initially for something like $11,000.

surely you can see the injustice in that?
because that is what happens when the law is uncompromising.
A "Zero tolerance" approach to ANYTHING is just as bad (if not worse)
than a "No holds barred" approach...
even when narrowed down to issues of copyright it is not so black & white when anything digital comes into it.

-B.M

[edit on 28/6/10 by B.Morrison]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by daskakik
 





Why wouldn't you work part-time so that you could make 1/2 of what you were making 3 years ago instead of the 1/5 that you are making know? Then you could make a living and do what you love cause the truth is no matter how wrong it may actually be the filesharing isn't going to stop.


Because I have to work full time at it to make 1/5th of what I made three years ago. When I'm not on a project I have to spend most of my time setting up the next project. It isn't like reporting to work and punching in. You are an independent contractor in the truest sense of the word.

Plus there is nothing else I can stomach doing. That is something a lot of people don't understand about those of us that are the most dedicated.

Tom Dowd was a nuclear physicists. He worked on the Manhatan project. When he finished up his service he went back to school to get a degree. He left college and went to work for peanuts in a New York studio. He couldn't really bring himself to do anything else. He went on to engineer some of the greatest Jazz albums of the time and produce classic albums by Aretha Franklin, Eric Clapton, The Allman Brothers Band, and many others.

I have a friend that was one of the first students in the first music business program available in the United States. He left as a fifth year student and began working for barly minimum wage. He went on to engineer multiple grammy award winning albums and songs. He even worked on multiple Diamond albums. He could have gotten his degree and went to work for RCA at nearly three times the rate. He couldn't do it though. To him it felt like trading heaven for slow death.

I have mostly moved from engineering to producing. However, I still feel the same way as those guys. To do anything else would be like suffering a slow death. There is something about the studio. There is something about getting your hands in to the guts of something and making the dreams come to life. No other work feels so compelling or completing.

reply to post by J.Clear
 



The "simple" part is playing like crazy around the place, hard touring - the part that's the hardest physical drain on you.


That part is getting harder as venues close and switch over to DJs or other forms of entertainment. In a near by college town you use to be able to find at least six places with shows every night of the week. Now you are lucky if there are five on a given weekend night. People don't show up because they can get the music on Youtube and steal the album from a torrent site.




The other things then are the limited releases, downloads, streaming content, blogs, youtube videos, live streaming of recording sessions etc. Some folks are being really innovative on this front.


I've actually never thought of that last part. Streaming the recording process is a smart idea. I have had them video taped for artists but live streaming... that is a great idea.

I really like the ideas you are talking about and I think they are part of the future. The old model has been falling for years. It was propped up in large part by the constant changing of the delivery format. I think a hybrid of your vision and the old model is necessary and will be the future. You still need people that can work full time on the publicity and other things. I think we are going to see something come out of the ashes. I just don't think it is going to be something where anybody makes enough to eventually retire or put their kids through college. That will force a lot of good artists, engineers, and producers out of the industry.

I think we are going to see a drop in quality sound reproduction and artistic expression. On the up swing it may run a lot of the "I wanna be famous" types out of the business.

None of this makes piracy any less evil however.

I do like your approach though. If you're ever in America working on an album let me know. U2U me a link to your stuff. I would like to hear what you're doing.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 10:01 PM
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reply to post by igor_ats
 


what about the serious researchers who use P2P to accumulate hard to find information about coveted subjects??

are they also all then trolls because they file share?

how does wanting something they can't have any other way make someone therefore "a troll who peruses threads with the sole purpose of shooting people down or ruining threads"....?

-B.M

[edit on 28/6/10 by B.Morrison]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by MikeNice81
None of this makes piracy any less evil however.


no, but based on your stories about those musicians who while being so passionate to continue in the face of virtually any conditions, and brilliant enough at what they did to be recognized as they were and held in such high esteem, still barely managed to scrape through on minimum wage,

based on that, why do you think that without file-sharing,
financial life would be any easier for the musicians...?

-B.M



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by rick1
reply to post by debunky
 

Maybe I should start here. What do you think it is I am selling? This might put us on the right track to a better understanding of each other.



I have no idea.
Doesnt matter.
The point is that if at one time in your life you decided that selling digital data is a good way to make a living, you might want to reconsider. Just like blacksmithing was a better career choice before the invention of the automobile.

Lets try a different approach:
Imagine a crazy world where it a car would consist of nothing but 300 GB. Somebody would need to design one, yes, but after that those 300 GB are a fully functional car. No resources required to make it, To make a second car, because your wife needs one this morning, you push a button. Need a billion cars? Push it 1 billion times.

What would be a fair price for this car?




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