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Originally posted by AlexKennedy
We actually sometimes refer to God as "God" in Lodge here, sometimes by other titles. We have to remember that "God" is a title, not a name. Comparing the words "God" and "Allah" is like comparing apples and oranges. I have heard many of my Muslim friends refer to God as "God," even though they may prefer to "name" him "Allah" (Which means what, you may ask? Why, "The God," of course... you see, arguments are often based on people not knowing what they're talking about )
In fact, for all the Abrahamic Relgions, as well, I believe, for Hinduism, the "names" we use for God are simply "Cover Words." The True Name is considered ineffable and probably unpronounceable (in a fundamental way) in these faiths, hence the Hebraic tradition of using "HaShem" ("the Holy Name," I believe), when talking about God. Similarly, I believe there are 99 titles used for God in the Koran, and probably the descriptors used for God are innumerable. As monotheists, I believe we are constrained to believe that all these descriptors refer to the same Entity, and thus it seems to me (poor, ignorant, Pollyannaish me) that it should be impossible for two monotheists to have a religious war (an opinion I believe I share with the Prophet, MPBUH)
Originally posted by InterceptorKnight
there is the perception that as a group you accept all gods as equally valid, and are not praying specifically to Jesus Christ and to God the Father. This is a significant issue, as you are expressly forbidden to worship any other Gods as a very basic and core tenet of our faith.
Where the conflict arises for many Christians and for Catholics in particular is precisely this vague acceptance of any and all Gods. You can worship any god you choose and be in compliance with the Masonic requirement. Because there is the reference to the "Great Architect", and there is prayer during the meetings and ceremonies, there is the perception that as a group you accept all gods as equally valid, and are not praying specifically to Jesus Christ and to God the Father. This is a significant issue, as you are expressly forbidden to worship any other Gods as a very basic and core tenet of our faith.
Originally posted by theron dunn
Now, taking no position means, taking no position
Taking no position does not mean willy nilly acceptance of anything, it simply means that Masonry allows each brother to know god as he sees fit, which, in itself, is proof that Masonry is not a religion, but a FELLOWSHIP of men WITH faith.
Originally posted by AlexKennedy
This seems a misunderstanding to me. As a Monotheist, I believe there is only one God... there are no other ones to be "equally valid" with. This God is worshipped by Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and all other faiths, really, it's just that they worship God in different ways. Now, that's just my belief, not a Masonic belief, but I am a Christian and have no problem with anything that goes on in Lodge.
Originally posted by AlexKennedy
If you sincerely believe that being a Christian means that it's wrong to sit and pray with men from other Faiths, I wonder why you continue being a Mason? Being a Knight of Colombus or something might be more appropriate. I say this without rancour, of course, just mystification that you continue doing something you consider to be against your faith.
Originally posted by InterceptorKnight
You can not be a Monotheist and a Christian concurrently. Either you are one or the other. Either you are a Monotheist and believe purely in one god, or you are a Christian an believe in Christ and the Trinity. Which are you?
I have no issues praying with those of different faiths. The Pope himself has prayed with those of different faiths in a spirit of fellowship.
I was merely stating the common Christian and especially Catholic perception regarding the Blue Lodge rituals.
This has been something I have struggled somewhat with over the years.
I am a 3rd degree Knight of Columbus by the way.
Originally posted by AlexKennedy
You and I obviously don't agree on the meaning of the Trinity. The Trinity has three persons, yes, but only one God. That's the whole purpose of the "Trinity!" Otherwise, it would just be three Gods.
Originally posted by AlexKennedyI do not believe that Christ was the entirety of God. I believe that Christ was the indwelling of the Logos into human matter. That, to me, seems a Christian belief, and certainly one shared with the Apostle John.
By the way, how dare you propose to dictate to me the limits of my faith? Are you sure you're a Freemason?
Originally posted by AlexKennedy
Well, that's fine, you have the right to see it as you please. I wasn't suggesting that I wanted you to STOP being a Freemason, simply that I thought it was odd you are a member of an organisation which you found upsetting.
You can not have or state it both ways. It does take the position that there is a supreme being. It does have a willy nilly acceptance of anything which you see fit as your personal supreme being.
Originally posted by theron dunn
Why is it so hard to understand not taking a position? Masonry does not accept any religious faith, nor does it deny any religious faith... it, in fact, offers NO OPINION on any religious belief.
Therefore, you can have both, because it is up to the INDIVIDUAL MASON, not the fellowship... further proof, by the way, that Masonry is not a religion.
Originally posted by InterceptorKnight
I bring this up in order to promote discussion as a response to the Christian bias that this prayer is somehow not proper because of the inferrence of this god being ambiguous.
Originally posted by AlexKennedy
But it's not a Christian bias at all. It's a bias that some people claiming to be Christians have. You say you're not inflammatory, and then you bring up arguments and refuse to say whether you believe them yourself or not? That sounds like starting an argument just for the sake of starting an argument, and it has another, uglier name which I will not bring up.
Originally posted by Leveller
So by your own argument - the Christians who oppose freemasonry are in the wrong.
As you've already said, freemasonry is not a religion and it does not promote religion. It therefore stands that the Christians who oppose are trying to promote a religion in an Order where none exists.
Masonry does not treat God as ambiguous. It treats Him as personal. It's exactly the other extreme to the one which you are implying.
I have no sympathy for the argument. I see it as being close minded. It also creates devisiveness and conflict out of nothing.
Originally posted by InterceptorKnight
The conflict already exists. I am bringing my own doubts along with bringing up the most popular reasons why many Christian organizations object to freemasonry for the purpose of discussion.
Originally posted by InterceptorKnight
Originally posted by Leveller
Masonry does not treat God as ambiguous. It treats Him as personal. It's exactly the other extreme to the one which you are implying.
The merit I see is that freemasonry most definitely does treat God as ambiguouis. By opening and closing the lodge with prayer, you are paying respect to a diety. By taking no stance on what this diety is, other than labeling it the Great Architect, I see this as being deliberately ambiguous.
Originally posted by Echtelion
Even if christian members of the Rite do not see any conflict between the masonic rites and their own christian faith, there IS truly a conflict between mysticism and christian faith, as the Bible clearly says that there is only one true alliance between mens and the absolute that is God, and that is the way of the Christ.
Originally posted by AlexKennedy
The reason you're being labelled a troll is because you are bringing up an argument which is settled. .
In essence, what I'm saying IK, is that it's not our responsibility here on this board to figure out for you whether you should be a Mason or not. Just don't try to extend your personal beliefs to all Christians, as you've done already on a couple of occasions here.
To re-iterate, no, the subject you're bringing up is not taboo, it's simply already settled. If you brought up the old idea that Masons are Satanists because they sit in open Lodge with Muslims and Jews, that wouldn't be Taboo either, merely stupid and already settled: if you choose to believe some form of behaviour to be religiously "wrong," there's nothing I can do about your belief.
Originally posted by InterceptorKnight
Originally posted by AlexKennedy
The reason you're being labelled a troll is because you are bringing up an argument which is settled.
So....to insite conversation and to bring out opinions by expressing an opinion differring from yours is to be an internet "troll"?