Xenophobia, or just stupidity?

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I would, and I do, routinely.

We all live on the same planet, and in order for the whole human race to survive, we need to start understanding each other properly. Preaching ignorance in any manner is not conducive to that, and thats why I confront it when I see it.

reply to post by neformore


The title of your thread is Xenophobia, or just Stupidity; the O.P. takes a very limited sample of Americans in order to condemn Americans, and makes no effort to balance that with limited remarks made by other people from other countries to "confront" xenophobia, and in as much, reveals a particular xenophobia of the O.P.

In all honesty, this O.P. does not read as one about xenophobia, as much as it reads as American bashing without any serious attempt to reach beyond a very few limited remarks made by certain individuals, in order to condemn Americans. I offer in support of my contention, this remark of yours:

These people are shaping the minds of the next political generation. They are narrowing the view, instead of expanding it - is the US simply going to be reduced to a generation of right-wing politicians who, frankly, are going to be a complete liability to the country on a global scale, because they've never even tried to understand anything outside of the US.

Whether it be arrogance on your part, or ignorance, broadcasters do not shape the minds of Americans, and for the most part, if there is any shaping of minds outside of themselves, in all fairness that shaping is more credited to parents and teachers than broadcasters. No, I do not think you took much time to seriously consider your words before creating this thread, and instead allowed your own emotions to rule your thought process, and willingly condemned the American people based on a very few and limited remarks, which smacks of xenophobia in my humble opinion.

Unfortunately any discussion or observation about America by non-US citizens is immediately labelled US bashing nowadays.

Is this a reflection of the US as a whole or just ATS; I'm not too sure.

Sorry, double post.

[edit on 29/6/10 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Freeborn


Frankly, I made no assumptions as to the nationality of the O.P. as I, being an American, am quite used to listening to plenty of other American's bash American's. One does not have to be discussing a foreign country when living in America in order to be xenophobic given that The U.S. is often referred to as a "melting pot" of immigrants. Further, when one reduces the whole of the American people to nothing more than mindless automatons susceptible to the careless words of celebrities, this is certainly not respect being shown, and for a discussion, it is fairly histrionic.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
Whether it be arrogance on your part, or ignorance, broadcasters do not shape the minds of Americans, and for the most part, if there is any shaping of minds outside of themselves, in all fairness that shaping is more credited to parents and teachers than broadcasters.

Sorry, maybe you should read this FCC factsheet

FCC fact sheet, Television use in America

Television Use in America
* Nielsen Media Research reports that 99% of American households have a television set.
* American children spend an average of four hours a day watching television that is 28 hours a week, 2,400 hours a year and nearly 18,000 hours by the time they graduate from high school. In comparison, they spend only 13,000 hours in school, from kindergarten through twelfth grade.

TV is a massively powerful medium, and I'm somewhat suprised you fail to understand that. Maybe you choose to see it a different way to suit your argument?

Glenn Beck, for example, had peak viewing figures of 3.4 million, and even though he is currently in a slump, he's getting the attention of approximately 1.7million
Glenn Beck hits 2010 Ratings Low

That may seem very few in comparison with the US population, but if you understand that the people watching the show are likely to be doing so because they see the world in a similar vein to how Beck does, and that some of them are likely to be politically minded and seek office in some form, then the message Beck puts across becomes particularly valid.

Thats not to say that supporters of other political views aren't similarly affected by their chosen media - of course they are, but the issue here is the dismissal of things non-american as insignificant, and I don't see that from elsewhere in the political spectrum, although Obama seems hell bent on trying to make the current Gulf of Mexico issue anything but an American one, particularly with the ill-advised use of the term "British Petroleum", when the company hasn't been called that for a number of years, and is actually BP-Amoco.

No, I do not think you took much time to seriously consider your words before creating this thread, and instead allowed your own emotions to rule your thought process, and willingly condemned the American people based on a very few and limited remarks, which smacks of xenophobia in my humble opinion.

I considered my words and chosen analogy very carefully. Its obvious you haven't though, as you still wish to try and portray my point about the right wing media in the US as some kind of attack on the American people. It isn't. Its an attack on the xenophobic way the right wing US media portrays issues.

But hey, thanks for your opinion. I'm sure its just as valid to you as mine is to me.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Just my observation and opinion of how I see how things have developed here on ATS.

Is it representative of the US as a whole?

I don't know.

What I do know is that there are US citizens who are more than capable of having reasoned and considered debate and discussion here on ATS, unfortunately their contributions seem to be becoming rarer whilst a more 'xenophobic' membership seem increasingly more vocal.

reply to post by neformore

TV is a massively powerful medium, and I'm somewhat suprised you fail to understand that. Maybe you choose to see it a different way to suit your argument?

(Ring, Ring. Ring, Ring.) Hello Kettle? This is Pot, you're black! (Click)

Not everyone at Fox News is dancing on top of their desks. Glenn Beck has seen his audience fall almost 30% since the start of the year, from about 2.9 million viewers in January to 2.1 million in April.

latimesblogs.latimes.com...

As has been the case for some time, network news viewers are an aging group. A majority (56%) of those age 65 and older say they regularly watch nightly network news; less than a third as many Americans under age 30 (18%) regularly watch these news programs. And it is not just the youngest viewers who are tuning out the network news. Only about a quarter of those age 30-49 (26%) are regular viewers. The generation gap for network news viewership, already substantial, has become slightly wider over the past two years.

people-press.org...

Finally, the fact that the program draws young audiences especially attractive to advertisers also explains the network's willingness to air such an unconventional and risky program. The "tween" demographic, those between 12 and 17, is an especially key viewing group for The Simpsons as well as a primary consumer group targeted by advertisers.

www.museum.tv...

NATIONAL NIELSEN RATINGS FOR THE WEEK OF MARCH 21 – 27, 2005

FOX RANKS NO. 1 FOR THE SEASON AMONG KEY DEMOGRAPHICS

LIFE ON A STICK Debut Delivers Best Thursday Premiere Ratings In 5 ½ Years

AMERICAN IDOL Sings So Long to Mikalah

HOUSE Continues Transforming Tuesdays 24 Ratings Explode

www.sirlinksalot.net...

In comparison to its 2005 season, 24 in 2006 was up 16% in overall viewers and 14% in viewers of the advertiser-friendly 18–49 age demographic. Thus, the series has so far reached its ratings peak in 2006. Ratings have remained steady, therefore 24 has managed to retain most of its audience through its entire run thus far. This circumstance is unlike other serialized shows such as Lost, Prison Break and Heroes, which have lost much of their respective audiences over subsequent seasons.

The sixth season's two-night, four-hour premiere, broadcast in 2007, garnered the largest audience in 24's history, averaging 15.7 million viewers. Ratings peaked at one point to 16.3 million. By comparison, the precedent seventh season's two-night, four-hour premiere, broadcast in 2009, decreased slightly in viewers, averaging an overall 27 million viewers over the two nights.

en.wikipedia.org...

HOLLYWOOD, Calif. -- The ninth season of “American Idol,” the final of the series’ star judge Simon Cowell, debuted last night on FOX to boffo ratings, although it was not as high as recent seasons’ past. The show opened its first half hour of its Boston auditions with Victoria Beckham serving as a guest judge for the departed Paula Abdul with 26 million viewers (a 9.8 / 26 share) and grew through the 9 PM half-hour. By 8:30 PM the show hit 30 million views (11.8 / 29), and it peaked at 9 PM with 32 million viewers (12.8 / 31). It dipped slightly again at 9:30 PM with 31 million viewers (12.6 / 30).

www.accesshollywood.com...

Just to put a little perspective on what American's are really tuning into when they turn to FOX for television viewing, but hey...why let the facts get in the way of a good rant, right? God knows Glen Beck wouldn't...Hmmm...

(Ring, Ring. Ring, Ring) Hello? Kettle? This is Pot, you're black! (Click)

I considered my words and chosen analogy very carefully. Its obvious you haven't though, as you still wish to try and portray my point about the right wing media in the US as some kind of attack on the American people. It isn't. Its an attack on the xenophobic way the right wing US media portrays issues.

I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt when suggesting that you had not chosen your words carefully, but since you insist that you did, then let's be clear about your agenda, shall we?

I considered my words and chosen analogy very carefully. Its obvious you haven't though, as you still wish to try and portray my point about the right wing media in the US as some kind of attack on the American people. It isn't. Its an attack on the xenophobic way the right wing US media portrays issues.

"Right wing media" is still a relatively new phenomenon in American television, only attempting to parrot the success of right wing radio. That there is now a "right wing media" illustrates that market place of ideas has opened up a bit, albeit a facade of "right wing" depending upon ones perspective. Frankly, FOX News comes off as more of a Republican News station than it does "right wing", and as many Americans are beginning to discover, there is very little difference between Republicans and Democrats, and hasn't really been for quite some time.

As to the "considered" remarks that the problem is "right wing media" when it comes to xenophobia, to many American's figuring out what the rest of the world actually expects of us as a nation is more than a little frustrating. On the one hand, we as a nation are often taken to task for our empire building and policing of the "rest of the world" but if we take an isolationist view then suddenly we are "xenophobic".

I personally have never seen Glen Beck, don't watch much television at all, and can't speak intelligently to what this man say's or doesn't say. What I know of Glen Beck is what I read in this site, which seems to be a sort of obsession with a man that can't seem to get a rating over 3 million people. You bet I don't think you considered your words very carefully, and I stand by that. If there is anything worthwhile in chiding American's television viewing habits it would be their proclivity to watch so much American Idol and other reality television shows, but then, I read a lot in this site where American's are taken to task for watching so much reality TV, I just haven't read that in this thread, and instead am being lectured about the "powerful influence" Glen Beck has on American children. (Sigh)

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Jean Paul....thank you for not reading, or understanding my thread, and attempting to comment on it, and spectacularly missing the point of everything I'm saying, including the bits I highlight in bold.

Here, let me re-emphasise this for you

I am concerned that the right-wing media in the US is acting in a particularly foolish manner that might affect future US foreign policy using a simple analogy and was hoping to have a discussion about it

from this post

Quite why you want to refer to American Idol, I have no idea. Its irrelevant to the discussion. You introduced a pointless straw man argument.

The people who tune into Glenn Beck and his ilk are the ones who are relevant. Its what they get fed when they watch/listen to/read Glenn Beck and his ilk that is relevant to this discussion. My concern is about how Glenn Beck and his ilk's words, actions and opinions may reflect on the thinking of those who may choose to move into politics, or who are already involved in grass roots politics. Its about media having responsibility, and exercising it carefully.

Its a simple concept. I've been trying to make it simpler but its obvious that you don't understand it. I do apologise for upsetting your delicate sensibilities in that manner.

[edit on 29/6/10 by neformore]

Originally posted by neformore
As the World Cup starts, conservative media declare war on soccer

Ok. Slightly old article by a couple of weeks, but it raises a question - why can't the US accept that there is a world out there?

Admittedly, the quotes in the article are made by some of the lowest of the low as far as political commentary go but this kind of thing...

He added: "generally football games in this country don't devolve into riots or wars." He later added that the sport of soccer "is being sold" as necessary due to the "browning of America."

I see nothing wrong with the above statement and am in 100% agreement with it. it has nothing to do with being Xenophobia or racist.

1. He's right. American football games are not as violent as or incite as much violence as soccer games.

2. He's right again. If we didn't have as many brown people in this country, who were used to the sport of soccer in their native land, we would not be as gung-ho to show the world cup. This is only a recent sporting addition in America. Back in the 60 and 70's before this nation started becoming a lot browner, you did not have the interest in the sport that you do today.

This man is stating facts. Pure and simple as that, nothing wrong with it.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

reply to post by neformore

Jean Paul....thank you for not reading, or understanding my thread, and attempting to comment on it, and spectacularly missing the point of everything I'm saying, including the bits I highlight in bold.

neformore...thank-you for not reading my replies, and defensively pouting that I don't understand your thread, and aghast at the audacity I have to disagree with you. It is always the same with the self-avowed intellectuals of the left that if someone doesn't agree with them it is only because they just don't understand what is being said. So, dogmatic as they are, and not really sure how else to respond, what do they do? Why repeat themselves ad nauseum, of course! In bold letters no less, and where they will accuse their detractors of simply not understanding, they will inevitably make remarks such as this:

Quite why you want to refer to American Idol, I have no idea. Its irrelevant to the discussion. You introduced a pointless straw man argument.

Quite indeed! Straw man argument? Missed your point, did I? Well let us examine this. In your O.P. you make this remark:

Its arrogant, dangerous gibbersih being spouted by people who have access to powerful mediums to reach people.

And this remark:

These people are shaping the minds of the next political generation.

Followed by this:

They are narrowing the view, instead of expanding it - is the US simply going to be reduced to a generation of right-wing politicians who, frankly, are going to be a complete liability to the country on a global scale, because they've never even tried to understand anything outside of the US.

Yet, you now backpedal and claim that these roughly 2.9 million people, (at best), are who you are speaking to, but it is these less than 3 million people who are apparently shaping the minds of the next political generation, and narrowing the view, instead of expanding it, reducing America to a generation of right-winged politicians. Gasp! Of course you can't possibly understand why I would point out that while Glen Beck can't get more than 3 million viewers on FOX, American Idol is getting an average of 30 million viewers. Yep, this is just a straw man argument. (Sigh)

Ironically, while you begin this post by stating:

Jean Paul....thank you for not reading, or understanding my thread, and attempting to comment on it, and spectacularly missing the point of everything I'm saying, including the bits I highlight in bold.

And then end this post with a disingenuous apology as such:

ts a simple concept. I've been trying to make it simpler but its obvious that you don't understand it. I do apologise for upsetting your delicate sensibilities in that manner.

I assure you, your apologies mean nothing to me, and if you genuinely regret your words, your actions will surely show that. Hmmmmm. I suppose I have only just spectacularly missed your point again, and in spite of quoting your words, you will only be assured I didn't read them. (Sigh)

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by neformore


Soccer is being pushed by the left not because of a "browning of America" but because the globalists want a unifying world sport for their global government.

I'm sure you are aware that professional sports operate as monopoly under the authority of the US government.

This is why congress gets involved in sports hearings.

Professional sports are a State sanctioned monopoly used as a tool to promote the State agenda.

reply to post by neformore


I didn’t even need to read this post to know the answerer.

Xenophobia IS stupidity.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
I assure you, your apologies mean nothing to me, and if you genuinely regret your words, your actions will surely show that. Hmmmmm. I suppose I have only just spectacularly missed your point again, and in spite of quoting your words, you will only be assured I didn't read them. (Sigh)

You don't understand sarcasm either, apparently.

C'est la vie

reply to post by neformore


Apparently you don't either, as disingenuous apologies hardly constitute sarcasm, and come far closer to insidiousness, or sournoiserie if you will.

reply to post by neformore


I think I must be doing you an injustice...(I frequently over-read implications, truly)...

It seems to me your basic position is kinda like "xenophobia equals ignorance" and/or "perfect knowledge eliminates conflict" and/or "to know me is to love me is always and necessarily true"...flavored chunks...

Are these crude caricatures or are you cool with them?

reply to post by mnemeth1


Football is just a game.
A very good game enjoyed by millions, but a game none the less.

Unfortunately it is being ruined by big business like Murdoch owned Sky Sports and politically correct and egotistical administrators like Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini.


Edit to add:

I think neformore was just using football as an anology and to make a point, nothing more, nothing less.

[edit on 29/6/10 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by neformore

Football (soccer) analogy aside - it strikes me that these people - while choosing to make cheap political gain over what is - in anyones terms - a truly global event, promote the very arrogance, pig headedness and social ineptitude (on a world scale) that lead to the massive decline in US popularity on the world stage during the Bush administration.

These people are shaping the minds of the next political generation. They are narrowing the view, instead of expanding it - is the US simply going to be reduced to a generation of right-wing politicians who, frankly, are going to be a complete liability to the country on a global scale, because they've never even tried to understand anything outside of the US.

For what it is worth I think perhaps you have misdefined your premise ... what you are describing isn't really "xenophobia" per se (although elements of it might or might not be present).

A more apt nomenclature, and one that would preclude the irony of singling out one nation as xenophobic, would be chauvinism/jingoism.

Chauvinism, (pronounced /ˈʃoʊvɨnɪzəm/), in its original and primary meaning, is an exaggerated, bellicose patriotism and a blind belief in national superiority and glory.[1] By extension it has come to include an extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of any group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group.

Jingoism is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as "extreme patriotism in the form of aggressive foreign policy".[1] In practice, it refers to the advocation of the use of threats or actual force against other countries in order to safeguard what they perceive as their country's national interests, and colloquially to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others – an extreme type of nationalism.

Emphasis mine to highlight common philosophical predispositions and well documented emotional base manipulation tools of US conservative media pimps.

Soccer isn't as unpopular in the US as you think. The most watched sport in the country is football. But when you look at youth sports 41 million kids play youth soccer and only 250,000 play pop warner football. Big difference. Football is an American sport. It features the best conditioned athletes in the world. It's technical and it's physical. It's controlled violence coupled with ballet. And it's been an American staple for 70 years.

THere are games similar to soccer that existed as early as 50 BC. It's been around a lot longer and on a more global scale than American Football. But soccer is still the fastest growing sport in the US. Give it time.

Now i get so tired of people ripping America, or blaming conservatives for our problems. I'm going to cover the conservative issue in a second, but what's great about the US? Let me tell you.

We are the most culturally potent country in the world. The movies and tv the world watches come from here. We export 25 times more entertainment than we import.

From 1820-1920 most of the worlds immigrants came to the US. Xenophobia? We take more immigrants today than ever before. If we're so oppressive why does the rest of the world flock here? The telephone, the cure for TB, the video game.... All invented byh people that immigrated here.

The left thinks all cultures are equal. BS. Technology crushes that argument. We've given you the telephone, moving pictures, television, the computer, the internet, airplanes, the light bulb and air conditioning.

I'm sorry global wealth revolves around America. Take our economy out of the global picture and see what happens.

The US provides twice as much foreign aid to the world as #2 on the list. Your welcome.

WHo put a man on the moon first? Who completed the 1st nonstop transatlantic flight? THe hoover dam. The Panama canal. Who broke the speed of sound?

America is the most powerful country in the world. Yet we've used our might to liberate others. Not have dominion over them. If some other country were the worlds superpower what language would you be speaking now?

Americans cured polio and tuberculosis, developed vaccines for hepatitis B and yellow fever, pioneered modern chemotherapy, and produced the CAT scan and MRI. 45 out of the past 60 years an American won part or all of the Nobel prize for medicine. Is the world a better place?

Most of this planet isn't allowed to elect it's own leaders. When countries cry out for freedom do they quote russian or chinese doctorine? Or do they quote the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution? Democracy, ahhhh.

Many people will talk about slavery, or the terrible things done to native Americans or some other horrid event in US history. We can say anything we want. We can pray to whatever God we choose, worship in any way you want. Hell you can even have whatever friends you wish, marry who you want, go to school where you want or have whatever job you want. You can even leave if you want. You can even talk bad about America. And it's ok.

THe world has been a better place since July 4th, 1776. And since that day no country in the world has done as much to make this world a better place than the USA. Maybe rather than griping about how arrogant Americans are, you should take that time and make the world a better place. We sure have.

As far as the right wing ruining the country, are you kidding? The republican party abolished slavery. Passed the 14th amendment. In the 60s the dems were fighting against the civil rights of blacks, the republicans pushed for them.

To quote lincoln on the eve of the civil war:"The Republicans inculcate, with whatever ability they can, that the Negro is a man, that his bondage is cruelly wrong, and that the field of his oppression ought not to be enlarged. The Democrats deny his manhood; deny, or dwarf to insignificance the wrong of his bondage; so far as possible, crush all sympathy for him, and cultivate and excite hatred and disgust against him; compliment themselves as Union-savers for doing so; and call the indefinite spreading of his bondage a sacred right of self-government."

I am not a citizen of the world. I am a US citizen. I don't think everyone elses beliefs are ok. Too much tolerance is a bad thing. And we have begun, thanks progressives, over the past 20 yrs especially, to tolerate too much here. Everything isn't ok. There is a right and wrong. There are very few true conservatives anymore. THe democrats are Marxist and the republicans are left of where the democrats were 50 years ago.

We need to understand that everything isn't ok. The way people are treated in many other countries where they are denied basic freedoms isn't alright. Part of our heritage is horrible. We grew from it and it led to great things. Everyone that knocks America has something to thank ti for. We need to get back to our conservative roots.

A thing moderately good is not as good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principal is always a vice.

Tom Paine

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by centurion1211
America bashing is often SOP for that mod, unfortunately.

Is it - reallly?

I'd ask if you got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning but then I realise that sticking it to the staff of the board at any available opportunity is pretty much SOP from you.

What disappoints me more though, Centurion, is you avid ability to add absolutely nothing to this conversation except you own personal rhetoric and a pointless attempt at dissing soccer, when I've already explained on more than one occasion that its being used as an analogy for other things.

But hey - any opportunity to have a go eh?

Your failure to miss the point, and dismiss the thread so avidly is a perfect example of the kind of attitude I'm talking about, so thanks for reinforcing my point.

My "failure to miss the point"? Good one, except what does it mean?

You mentioned "dissing the ATS staff". Most people know where I'm coming from. Level playing field, fair is fair, moderators are human and thus not perfect - especially if they throw their weight around along with their personal opinions. I WILL diss someone for that here as well as in my personal life.

As for dissing (your word of the week?) soccer, how is discussing why it might not be so popular with Americans (part of your point in the OP?), and what changes might make it more so dissing the sport. One could even say that mine was a better discussion than calling people "xenophobes" just because they might not like soccer the way the rest of the world does.

So you see, even your charge of "dismissing the thread" is false, as I was merely offering a potential explanation of why Americans today don't seem to prefer soccer as much as home grown sports. Also, as I mentioned, with so many kids playing it here now, that is very likely to change in the future.

And nowhere have I charged or suggested that the rest of the world loving soccer somehow constitutes "xenophobia" towards Americans, or "stupidity".