Does a fetus feel pain before 24 weeks of gestation?

Originally posted by Blanca Rose

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz

Who cares.

Do you remember *being* a fetus?

Exactly. End of argument.

Well, if you didn't make it past the fetal stage, you wouldn't be here in this thread responding.

I can't remember much before the age of 5, so I think your argument is a little silly!

Completely irrelevant.

Do me a favor. Don't EVER walk on the grass again, eat food, wear clothes or makeup, or drive anywhere, as all of those activities involve killing SOME life form.

Hypocrite.




[edit on 6/26/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

Well then... so it seems they are saying it's legal to kill if you don't inflict pain on others? huh? So what if I go around drugging people so that they don't feel a thing and then I kill them? Or is it only legal if it's my DNA - I'm killing, my blood?
This is just hilarious. A murder is a murder (period)

reply to post by catwhoknows


I am actually pro choice, but I think it's because I have never been faced with the situation.

I do believe it's the choice of the woman, to decide, however, based on what you said, there is another body inside that person. Just because the fetus has no choice, doesn that make abortion, right?

What I want people to consider, at the 2 articles in the OP I made, showing to completely different scenarios. One says no pain for a fetus before 24 weeks, and the other showing a baby that was born at 23 weeks gestation, and lived.

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz

Completely irrelevant.

The topic is about whether or not a fetus can feel pain before 24 weeks of gestation, while showing the survivor being born at 23 weeks.

Killing other life forms while existing outside of the womb, is another topic for a thread you might want to create.

I think also, and i've said this in another abortion topic before, alot of people who aren't pro-choice, aren't really aware of what some people actually have an abortion for.

Alot of people just seem to jump to the conclusion that people who choose abortion are those that have made mistakes with contraception, or used none at all, or who aren't well off enough to look after a baby, or just change their minds.

There are people, like JRho900, who have had a loss in pregnancy, and have to have a D&C and have it labelled an abortion, there are those women, who plan and plan and have their Nuchal Translucency scan at 11-13 weeks to be told that their babies will not survive outside the womb, there are those who have to be rushed away because their babies are dying inside of them, and they need to make the heartbreaking decision to end things now or wait longer and make their babies endure pain and the woman herself endure further physical & mental pain. Women who get results from said NT scan, showing severe defects meaning the child will be born in pain, and suffer for the rest of its life (if it's given much of a life span to begin with)

People just seem to not want to think about those options. Would you expect a woman to carry around a dying fetus in her womb? knowing that she's going to lose something more precious than words can say?

Until you are faced with those decisions. You can't really know.

reply to post by Blanca Rose


I might not.

I'd rather watch you all flail in your abortion arguments.

[edit on 6/26/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
reply to post by Blanca Rose

 

I might not.

I'd rather watch you all flail in your abortion arguments.

[edit on 6/26/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

It would be nice if you would actually pay attention while participating instead of flailing around in the deep end of the pool trying to drag down everyone who comes near.

She hasn't made any 'abortion arguments'. The discussion is plain and in front of you-more of a 'where does life being' type discussion than a morality of abortion discussion... at least so it seems.

Otherwise: I am sure you know the saying: The surest sign of intelligence is the ability to entertain a notion without having to agree with it.

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


The abortion aspect is just part of the story here.

Some study came out showing that a fetus feels no pain before 24 weeks of gestation.

That is really what this is about, whether or not a fetus at that age is a viable living being, that does feel pain. I find the study to be flawed, as is evident by the other article showing a fetus born before that time can survive.

While you might not remember being a fetus or a baby, doesn't mean you never felt pain during those times.

Originally posted by lordtyp0

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
reply to post by Blanca Rose

 

I might not.

I'd rather watch you all flail in your abortion arguments.

[edit on 6/26/2010 by SquirrelNutz]

It would be nice if you would actually pay attention while participating instead of flailing around in the deep end of the pool trying to drag down everyone who comes near.

She hasn't made any 'abortion arguments'. The discussion is plain and in front of you-more of a 'where does life being' type discussion than a morality of abortion discussion... at least so it seems.

Otherwise: I am sure you know the saying: The surest sign of intelligence is the ability to entertain a notion without having to agree with it.

Which brings us back to can a fetus feel pain prior to 24 weeks? I agree this isn't about pro choice/pro life.

I guess I am skeptic. How did they determine that a fetus can't feel pain prior to 24 weeks. Did they do an amino type procedure? Cause pain to a fetus and say "Oh it did not flinch? It did not react to the pain inflicted?"

reply to post by Blanca Rose


OK, abort that child - your body, your choice - but I would be so sad if you aborted that child.

Here is a link to a graphic video of an abortion at 11 weeks.
Yes they filmed the abortion and the baby is obviously feeling pain as its arms and legs are being suctioned off.


The name of the video made in the 1980 is
SILENT SCREAMS


WARNING: This video contains graphic images which some may find disturbing. If you are a young person and have any doubts about viewing these videos, please check with your parents before proceeding any further.


This is evidence of reaction to pain: The being tries to escape, withdraw, get away from th source of the pain.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by slugger9787]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by slugger9787]

Sorry Slugger I can't watch what you posted but I will take your word for it.

I wish they would publish how they came to the conclusion that fetus/baby can not feel pain. How many "specimans" were tested? Or are we talking about 1 experiment and they concluded ALL of them can't prior to 24 weeks.

reply to post by JRho900

Which brings us back to can a fetus feel pain prior to 24 weeks? I agree this isn't about pro choice/pro life.

I guess I am skeptic. How did they determine that a fetus can't feel pain prior to 24 weeks. Did they do an amino type procedure? Cause pain to a fetus and say "Oh it did not flinch? It did not react to the pain inflicted?"

Been trying to figure that out from the article too. Really seems like they didn't get the memo that correlation doesn't equal causality. On a hunch they pulled brain scans and of them they had brain wave patterns consistant with an unconscious person. Which, though I am in no way a neurologist of anything in the field.. Seems profoundly flawed.

Quick Q with that which the Google isn't providing: Do the frontal lobes form/are they functional by that time?

I would presume if they are not developed, the scans would show consistent with unconsciousness. But that is just conjecture...

Speaking of conjecture; is it some weird sexism that people are leaping to the OP planning an abortion? What are they seeing that is saying that which I am not?

Originally posted by lordtyp0


Speaking of conjecture; is it some weird sexism that people are leaping to the OP planning an abortion? What are they seeing that is saying that which I am not?

Yes, I wonder about that one too!

Im past child bearing years, for those who want to know, and had my "equipment," removed years ago do to pre-cancerous conditions. I do have 4 beautiful children though, that I never dreamed of aborting!

Going back to the original article:

www.guardian.co.uk... no-pain-24-weeks

It does say this, but not how they determined it.

The report on pain perception says: "It was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the foetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation."

I'd like to know how they found this out, also. Did they do autopsies? Ultra sounds?

I have been searching to see if I can find out more on this, but, I think they might have left out gruesome details on this study, on purpose!

Looks like the first three paragraphs are all there is detail wise to spell out the conclusion:

The connections in the foetal brain are not fully formed in that time, nor is the foetus conscious, according to the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.

and

The studies suggest that late abortions, permitted for serious abnormalities or risks to a woman's health, do not result in foetal suffering because of increasing evidence that the chemical environment in the uterus induces "a continuous sleep-like unconsciousness or sedation".

So, all they really give us is not only is the chemical environment sedative in nature (makes sense, tranquil baby would probably spare kidneys damage) but also the brain isn't fully formed. Guess that's all we get for now.

Here is another article, where an argument was made in Nebraska, where the limit for abortions was changed to 20 weeks, for the same reason as the original article in my OP.

This one goes on to explain that a fetus has nerve endings in it's skin, as early as 8 weeks. The article is also interesting because one Dr. went on to explaing how a fetus will back up from a needle when blood transfers are done.

www.omaha.com...

Nerve fibers designed to sense pain are present in a fetus's skin seven or eight weeks after conception, said Dr. Terence Zach, chairman of pediatrics at the Creighton University School of Medicine.

Another Omaha physician, Dr. Robert Bonebrake, agrees with Zach. Bonebrake, a perinatologist at Methodist Hospital, sometimes must give blood transfusions to fetuses or drain fluid from them at 21 or 22 weeks.

I found this article to be a little bit more enlightening, because of the needle situation with a fetus, but the article does also indicate that there is really no way to be absolutely sure, when pain might first be able to be felt.

Originally posted by Blanca Rose
Going back to the original article:

www.guardian.co.uk... no-pain-24-weeks

It does say this, but not how they determined it.

The report on pain perception says: "It was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the foetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation."

I'd like to know how they found this out, also. Did they do autopsies? Ultra sounds?

I have been searching to see if I can find out more on this, but, I think they might have left out gruesome details on this study, on purpose!

" most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception"

MOST does not mean all. I have to do some more research on this.

The real question here is PAIN.
Physical pain.
My worms recoil when I impale them on the hook.
The point is they feel the hook as a painful threat to their existence.
I conclude that a baby human in the womb can feel and sense and react to the same threat.

The last structure to evolve out of the telencephalon is the cerebral cortex, one of the most complex parts of the brain and the site of what are considered “higher functions”: learning, language, and abstract thought. The cerebral cortex begins to develop in the eighth week of embryonic growth but will continue to form during much of the prenatal period. The connections between neurons in the cerebral cortex continue to mature into early adulthood, and some experts say they never stop maturing.

www.dana.org...


So if at 8 weeks the cerebral cortex begins to develop why wouldn't there be a chance a fetus could feel pain much earlier than stated.