Jesus did not die on cross, says scholar

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by aboxoftrix

 

Sorry hunni. You're way off the chart. They believe he is both a prophet and the messiah. en.wikipedia.org...

Not that I care one way or the other for peoples belief in the Easter bunny, Santa Clause, the Tooth fairy, Baby Jesus or any other imaginary being, I really just wanted to point out that Wikipedia is Not a source. It's a collaboration of sorts, but not a source. So my plea to all of ATS is to please stop citing Wikipedia as a source, you may as well be citing "Tv Guide"

..Ex

reply to post by v3_exceed


Lets make our own religion, lets make it an invisble teapot that judges you and condemns you to a life in boiling water if you live your life "wrong" according to the teapot. Lets write some rules that you must abide by, even if they may be against love, or freedom of human expression, Lets say people need it and without it, they are "sinners"

Anyone want to join my teapot religion? It has just as much credibility and logic as most of these other religions? Its cool, and we offer love, and compassion, not going to mention freedom, but its all cool, i'm not going to mention the bad stuff that we write in the scripture, and so what if he's a bad, angry, jelous teapot sometimes, he won't boil you if your cool.

Will we ever quit this nonsense? this sillyness? This need to quote scriptures written years ago and based on the unfalsifiable and take them as fact has to end, hopefully some day.

As a Wiccan, I have no particular dog in this fight, but there is evidence from Israel from about the time Yeshua bar Yusef would have been killed (the article does not take issue with the idea that Jesus was killed) that indicates nails were used. There is a skeleton from Israel from the 1st century CE that still has a cruxifiction nail stuck through the ankle.

Like many others have said here what is it going to take to convince people, will it take a flaming cross? I understand that folks do not want to believe. The Bible states this is fact. So by refusing to believe; you are actively taking part, in the same thing anyway.

The doors of hell will be locked from the inside anyway. Not that I believe Hell is Eternal.

AlSayr

Originally posted by AlSayr
Like many others have said here what is it going to take to convince people, will it take a flaming cross? I understand that folks do not want to believe. The Bible states this is fact. So by refusing to believe; you are actively taking part, in the same thing anyway.

The doors of hell will be locked from the inside anyway. Not that I believe Hell is Eternal.

AlSayr

you mean like the Flaming Crosses off the KKK? Do you understand why folks do not believe? What the bible states cannot be considered as fact, a god, let alone the Christian god cannot be proved, its an unfalsifiable theory - Look it up and you'll learn something instead of condeming people from opening their minds.

I've said this before and i'll say it again, if there is 1 god, then what makes you think he should subcribe to your specific religion? we should all expect damnation (hell) as a matter of chance because there are many religion with contrasting ideaologies on how you should be living your life, is that the kind of god you want? We don't need this rubbish, there is no truth to this matter, only a book that claims to be trutful. You can be free, and free in the mind without these fairy tales for adults.

[edit on 26/6/10 by awake_and_aware]

People who choose not to believe may change their mind as death approaches. Consider the greatest atheist of the 20th century recently changing his mind, now that he's in his 80's: Anthony Lew

The Bible is a record fo history, written by men, and inspired by God. You can choose to believe it or not. If you regard it as fictitious, then you must also regard all written history that you have not personally witnessed as fictitious. Scholars of antiquities agree that the Bible is the most verified historical text ever written. So, it follows that if you don't believe it historically, you don't believe history.

To me, that sounds like an ignorant position to try to maintain.

If you are trying to prove God exists, using science, you are also on the wrong track. Faith is not based on science. If it were, it would be called Fact. The Bible is provided by God to give us Hope. God gave us His Son to pay for Our sins, not His. Take it or leave it. It's as free as a Christmas present.

Originally posted by AlSayr
Like many others have said here what is it going to take to convince people, will it take a flaming cross? I understand that folks do not want to believe. The Bible states this is fact. So by refusing to believe; you are actively taking part, in the same thing anyway.

The doors of hell will be locked from the inside anyway. Not that I believe Hell is Eternal.

AlSayr

What will it take to believe the Bible is the "truth"?
How about some PROOF?
How about Jesus' skeleton, DNA, SOMETHING?
How about SOMETHING other than Christians #ing excuses for everything?
How about something other than using a FICTIONAL BOOK as your ONLY line of defense for EVERYTHING that is tossed at you?

The FACT is, and I say fact because this cannot be disputed by anyone OTHER than bible thumpers, that there is NO proof GOD exsists, there is NO proof Jesus was real. NONE.
No DNA, no remains, no skeleton, just hearsay that you crazy brainwashed people love to spit in everyone elses faces and demand we see YOUR crap as THE WAY or else we're all gonna burn in helllllllllll!!!!!

Says you sitting at your computer, being able to be treated by medicine and doctors, able to travel by machine to get places faster. Science is a crock isn't it? hasn't done anything for humanity.

Yeah, use those machines, bigger better faster...but still no mark of humanity - And humanity is what makes mankind.

*A 'persons humanity is measured according to their relationship with others' - not how fast they can travel, or how much storage they have on their computer.

As for science being a 'crock' and not having done 'anything for humanity'? Your words... Just in case there was any doubt...

If only i could take it all away in one go and see what your life would be like.

Besides the computer and basic medical care in case of an emergency, I have. And my life is wonderful. Hard, bare and basic, a challenge, but, I'm trying to live what I believe not just say I do. I'd kill for a Quarter Pounder though, lol.

Again, you see the religious person mining for an argument for support of his, As if because of the oil disaster that proves science to be non-progressive.

Well, wherever you got that from I've no idea.
My point of the BP disaster? Progress isn't everything.
Without a soul, and love - in hating your neighbor, progress is as substantial as a feather in the wind.

No you'll find that its corruption and greed caused by the monetary system, which promotes possession, greed, competition and all the bad things we would be better without.

Progress doesn't cause the above - Man does.
Man's perpetuated greed and corruption ever since the first two upright bipeds gathered around a cooking fire.
That's not the fault of progress, it's the fault of mans greed, ego, disregard of fellow man along with man's hate and envy.
All things a good belief system (should) stand against.

Science is progression, it is revision, it is the hope for discovering truth, most moral people will use it for good because its an asset that has helped natural selection and survival of the fittest.

Progression? Revision? Again debatable.
As for science 'helping' natural selection and survival of the fittest?
Sorry, but I have to chuckle over that. If you can't see the misconceptions there I'll just move on and not bore you with truths.

Get real before you post your unintellible dribble guised with your big words and your conveluted setences.

They're spelled: unintelligible, convoluted, sentence.
And the sentence as a whole would be insulting - if I accepted it. Which I wont, not from you or anyone.
News Flash. You can't insult someone that wont allow it.
See, my belief system gives me a 'center' , a personal dignity far beyond anything that can be damaged by words or opinions.
Added note: I wont throw it in your face I've refrained from being verbally abusive you - that should be obvious.
Temperance, understanding and care being something a good belief system encourages and embraces. Decency is a good thing.

If you think i'm a "sinner" for one minute then that is the failed logic that you are subject to due to your religion.

In your last post you stated 'I am not a sinner...'
Did I doubt you? Call you a liar? Far from it. I didn't even bring up the word.

Homosexuality is a sin in some religions, eating ham is in others, whichever god is the right god, is gonna be slightly pissed off that people got him so wrong.

So you're saying there is a God? A 'He' God no less?

Anyway, if god just only subcribe to 1 religion its set of "life rules" then we should expect damnation (hell) as a matter of chance.

Good thing there are many different 'religions' to fit each culture, each set of peoples...
'Religion' of course being a very different thing than spirituality, but, again, a statement you're making, not a question, so I'll leave it with this.

Hint: Be careful when discussing 'religion' with someone who is 'spiritual' and 'spiritualism' with someone who is 'religious'.
Sadly enough you'll often find the two don't mix.

I nothing further to debate with you, as i question and you accept, you have a phoney theory, i look for revised ones. good luck in life, don't bother praying for me, it won't manifest.

Phony theory - in your opinion.
Don't forget, just because you say it doesn't make it right - or TRUTH. Not very scientific of you! (*teasing not insulting*)

Again, that's the beauty of spirituality and any belief system - it doesn't matter what YOU think of what I BELIEVE IN.
It matters what I think.

Right back to the subject of the thread.

Some people will believe the cross, and crucifixion. Some never will.

Does it really matter if it was a stick or a cross? NO...

What matters that we love one another...anything else is just window dressing.

You and I should be able to at least agree on that.

Oh! Before I forget! About the prayer thing... Nawwww, that would open a whole new can a worms, never mind.

Have a great evening. It's been fun talking to you.

peace

*Quote above not mine - I've no idea who said it sorry. Heard it once, liked it, never forgot it but still have no idea who said it.

EDIT for quote

[edit on 26-6-2010 by silo13]

I respect what you believe. I'm not quite sure I belong in the Bible Thumper classification though. Maybe I do. I don't believe it is necessary to go to Church. I'm setting here drinking beer.

Make no mistake; I believe God invites us into a personal relationship with Him, He loves us, everyone of us. Do you folks believe Jesus dies so you could go to Church? Or that you could find peace with your maker?

Anyway; I'm not trying to stir things up. I have proof for me. I know that doesn't work so well for those that haven't had a spiritual experience. But I have no doubt whatsoever, that there is a Heaven and Hell. I believe Hell is Annihilation VS eternal torturing, which I cannot comprehend.

When I have 20 posts, I will share my proof with everyone, and you can decide then if you think I am nuts.

Anyway, stay safe my friends.

AlSayr

In response to the person that talked about a famous Atheist conversion I have read that as well. It is easy to be an Atheist when your young and things are going your way. It is quite another to be setting on your death bed. Not so easy there.

AlSayr

Originally posted by AlSayr
Like many others have said here what is it going to take to convince people, will it take a flaming cross? I understand that folks do not want to believe. The Bible states this is fact. So by refusing to believe; you are actively taking part, in the same thing anyway.

The doors of hell will be locked from the inside anyway. Not that I believe Hell is Eternal.

AlSayr

Well Good Afternoon

It appears today is going to be the same old same old eh.
(the bible states this as fact...that was a good one..)

So, lets play this your way. What are...say...the first and second commandments? That would be...Thou shalt take no other Gods before me, and Thou shall not make for yourself a graven image...blah blah blah..

So in effect by worshiping Jesus, you are in fact breaking commandment 1 and 2. But since your OK with both of those, judging others is just a walk in the park. You see, by believing in this steaming pile of poo, you put yourself into a situation where by your own rules, you lose. A "true believer" simply cannot win if they actually follow the rules outlined in The Babble... er Bible.

Please forgive my glib attitude but this is a tired argument. Jesus said...blah blah blah so worshiping him is OK. Except...this still breaks rule 1 and rule 2 unless you allow the very object of your worship to change the rules...rules..given to you by...God.

So please continue believing what you will, as I will continue bathing in your hypocrisy and bashing Christianity at every turn. Not just because it is based entirely on lies, and not just because it has caused millions of deaths over the past thousand years, but because it a whole lot of fun.

..Ex

Originally posted by AlSayr
Make no mistake; I believe God invites us into a personal relationship with Him, He loves us, everyone of us. Do you folks believe Jesus dies so you could go to Church? Or that you could find peace with your maker.
AlSayr

By what means have you come to this belief? And do you think he loves the people dying or starving? Do you think they have a personal relationship with god? Do you think you would want to in that situation?

Interesting to hear if you know this as fact or you have just picked it up from your corrupt scriptures.

reply to post by Jim Scott


"then you must also regard all written history that you have not personally witnessed as fictitious"

Yes, so historians can't use primary, secondary source information to give us an understanding of what went on in history, what weapons they used to kill each other, what torture tools they used on people.

Yes, i'm going to disregard "ALL" written history because it was written by man, i'm also going to disregard all science theory, including electronic theory by which i am using this computer, because man has written it down, it can't be fact.

Look at the core of what the bible is saying, its unprovable, its unfalsifiable, my theory of a cosmic teapot with different rules to your god is just as credible, theres no progression from there, no questioning. Get real would you, think before you speak

Actually, there is proof of crucifixion. I get a magazine called "Biblical Archaeology" and they showed a find of a foot where the heel bone has a nail right through it at about the right time. The thing that is almost always misrepresented is the nails through the palms. This couldn't possibly work because they would tear right through. They more often nailed through the wrists or simply tied the arms onto the cross member.

This doesn't prove a thing about Jesus, of course. It just contradicts this "scholar" who hasn't done his homework. The usual "I can't find it therefore it couldn't have existed" kind of argument.

Originally posted by schuyler
Actually, there is proof of crucifixion. I get a magazine called "Biblical Archaeology" and they showed a find of a foot where the heel bone has a nail right through it at about the right time. The thing that is almost always misrepresented is the nails through the palms. This couldn't possibly work because they would tear right through. They more often nailed through the wrists or simply tied the arms onto the cross member.

This doesn't prove a thing about Jesus, of course. It just contradicts this "scholar" who hasn't done his homework. The usual "I can't find it therefore it couldn't have existed" kind of argument.

No one is doubting the possibilitythat a man named Jesus was crucified, no one is denying the fact that such inhumane rituals were performed, as there is evidence of bones etc. confirming these barbaric activities.

What we ask evidence for is the proof that he is the son of "god", that he died for our "sins" (subjective in terms of Christianity) when there are contrasting "sins" in other scriptures, No one is bound by this mans death, no one should be, for we are all inviduals, and as an individual i would have chosen to stop this act of human sacrifice because it is wrong. I don't care what he claims.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Awake and Aware. No, I have proof. But it is only really good for me, unless you believe what I am going to tell you. This is directly from my web site. So either you believe, or you don't.

As far as the starving children; God loves them as well, the starvation is actually a result of man, population reduction and such.

Please excuse the tone of the SNIP which is from a religious website, and has that sort of tone to it.

"My personal story of Faith - Why I know there is a Heaven

May God bless all of you for searching for the truth in God's Message. The Bible has brought me back to
the church. It has been the catalyst in taking my family to church for the first time. As well as
re-dedicating my life to Jesus Christ after almost 30 years of being lost. Sunday the 18th of June, 2007
after going back to church I went forward to ask the church to pray for me and to welcome me back into the
flock.

I would like for you to open up your heart for a minute and consider the story that has happened in my
life. In short I believe God is working within me to get a message out. I have been praying very hard for
God to come into my life and show me what my purpose is. No matter what the cost. My faith is
STRONG in the lord because of my story of faith. I was reminded of some very significant events that
happened in my life. One very significant event that I feel needs to be shared so you might learn from my
mistake and make a better informed decision about the after life.

I was baptized at a very early age, about the 4th grade. It was a big deal because for my love for the Lord
and the deep involvement of the church elders who were leery of my young age. I was mentored and tested
by them and was baptized because they firmly believed I was ready at my young age. As I lost my
innocence and grew up I started falling away from the things of the Lord. When I was 17 I was in boot
camp at the Great Lakes Naval training facility in Chicago, IL. Well into my eight weeks I was tempted by
a man in my sister company on a smoke break who said he was a preacher in a Satan Worshiping Cult. Not
the obvious temptation. I thought he was kidding. He was boasting, bragging about it. The year was 1980
and Ronald Reagan had just become president. I was missing my girlfriend and was expressing my
disappointment that I could not call her for another month.

Laughingly, he said he could put us in communication and asked my name and hometown and her name and
home town. I forgot about it in 5 minutes as the smoke break was over. That night as I was relaxing in my
bunk and getting ready to fall asleep my soul was literally pulled from my body by Demons and I was
descending somewhere terrifying. I heard distant screams, horrific screams. I could feel the touch of two or
three Demons as they encircled me, pulling me down. Laughing at me with a Demonic laugh I could feel
them touching me, guiding me with an unholy embrace and I feared my soul was already lost. I could smell
smoke and fire but could not feel it. I was helplessly lost my brothers and sisters. This went on for a short
time and there was nothing that I could do to save myself. Just then I realized the contact I had with the
alleged Satan worshiper and I knew that all was now lost. I had been tempted by the evil one and lost.

As quickly as I was pulled from my body/this world, whatever you want to call it, I was returned to my
bunk bed covered in sweat. I was shaking and crying to myself, and very terrified over what just happened.
Everyone else in my Company was asleep except the watch. I prayed very hard that night thanking God
for rescuing me. I never new the extent of God's Love for me until this night.

So this is just one thing that happened to me, I have three, and will get around to the other one's soon.

I doubt very much that Romans didn't crucify anyone.

I believe that crucifixion was a common form of execution back then, not only by the Romans but other ancient peoples as well. It might have happened on a pole rather than a cross, but that is a minor detail.

The remnants of Spartacus' slave army was almost certainly crucified along the Appian Way by the order of Crassus around 73-71 BC.

reply to post by v3_exceed


Good afternoon. I will say there are many, many things wrong with this man made institution called Church. I documented them in a 21 chapter podcast. I don't know if your really open to examining this evidence or not. But what the heck. You are certainly welcome to check these out. This was written by Wayne Jacobsen, a friend I met along the Journey. He also wrote the book, so you don't want to go to Church anymore? Thanks

The Naked Church - Chapter 1 - The Day the Journey Started Podcast
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 2. Rise Up and Walk
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 3. The Emperors New Clothes
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 4. Aern't You Hungry?
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 5. Of Course I Love God
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 6. Real Salvation
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 7. When Did It Get So Complicated?
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 8. Simple Intimacy
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 9. God in a box
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 10. Learning to Depend on God
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 11. O Dem Golden Shepherds
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 12 - Firsthand Friendship
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 13 Confessions of a Christian Materialist
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 14 Righteousness That Comes from Faith
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 15. Programmed to Death
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter - 16. The New Testament Community
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter 17 - Where Has All the Power Gone?
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter 18 - Clothed with Power
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter 19 - Stained Glass and White Linen
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter 20 - A Real Jesus in an Unreal World
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

The Naked Church - Chapter 21 - Naked No Longer
www.godsmessageontheweb.com...

I believe this scholar is wrong since there were reputable witnesses to his crucifiction on a cross and those were recorded... I don't believe it was a lie....

But there are sure a lot of people trying to say it is all a lie.. especially since this year came about...

There have been so many people coming out of the woodwork making all sorts of claims that the Bible is all made up,

Stories of aliens contacting people and claiming it is all made up. etc. etc...

Athiests coming out of the woodwork vehemently arguing against the reality of Christ and God but not offering any real proof..
The irony is that they use "faith" themselves to believe there is nothing because it can't actually be proven one way or the other scientifically..


Total entertainment there.....

Those that have a real relationship with God know that Christ is quite real indeed and some have even spoken to and seen Christ in visions since the crucifiction days....

I believe in honest people's testimonies as proof because some people respect honesty as being one of the most important virtues... so based on that I personally find this type of evidence as proof and it is a whole lot easier than trying to find any hard evidence...

And this researcher that is the subject of this post sure is not offering anything solid, just pure speculation based on some dubious circumstances...

Bible says Jesus was hanged on a tree.....no?