Jesus did not die on cross, says scholar

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by aboxoftrix

 

Sorry hunni. You're way off the chart. They believe he is both a prophet and the messiah. en.wikipedia.org...

Ok but I wouldn't say "way off" Their idea of Jesus being a Messiah is way different than the Christians idea of him.

reply to post by Cor Leonis


Hi

I'm going to tell you what I really think on this topic.
Please understand that I'm not trying to talk you of your path or intend to offend anyone. They are just my thoughts.

I think religion was, is and will always be a tool to control the masses.
For whatever reason anyone can come up with. The origins and development of the churge shows the opposite of what Jesus of Yeshua try to teach us.

Jesus will accept you when you are truthfully pure with and in your intentions.
In love, forgiveness and faith. Not because a corrupt regime makes you belief eternal damnation, but because you want to.

The two best examples that make me think so are from the bible.
And they are because of my interpretation of them.

Ironically the thief on the cross next to him. and that he said that many will place their trust in an illusion at the end.

Originally posted by dusty1
Good article. Check out wikipedia, the meaning of the Greek word Stauros

Jehovah's Witnesses for years have believed that Christ died on a stake or tree.

Actually, "stauros" means pole or cross. The Greeks only have one word for the two.
Jehovah's Witnesses must be very thankful to this scientist who "proves" their belief that Jesus died on a pole. Jehovah's Witnesses tell lies, it's a sect and their translation of the Bible is a falsification. They decided Jesus died on a pole to differentiate themselves from the Catholic church, that's all, this is political, not based on facts.


[edit on 25/6/2010 by jeanne75018]

what thread is this again...do i have the title correct...Jesus did not die on cross, says inbred ingrate!

[edit on 25-6-2010 by GBP/JPY]

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Interesting...

But this just means the Bible has been misinterpreted... the scholar who wrote the essay says, "My suggestion is that we should read the text as it is, not as we think it is. We should read on the lines, not between the lines. The text of the Bible is sufficient. We do not need to add anything."

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


I am one of Jehovahs Witnesses and we have claimed this for many years based on our understanding of the bible. Unfortunately we were ridiculed for saying that the cross has no place in christianity seeing as Jesus didnt even die on the cross. I am glad that an independent scholar has also found this out.

reply to post by ChickenPie


How do you come to your conclusion ?
It looks as if half is missing.

Well.... It's that or either I don't get it...

reply to post by jeanne75018


I'm sorry. Did you just more or less used politics, religious book, interpertration, sect, the Catholic churge in almost one sentence ?

Along with the word fact.

I'm surly interested in how that is supposed to work.

A star for you

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by ChickenPie

 

How do you come to your conclusion ?
It looks as if half is missing.

Well.... It's that or either I don't get it...

Gunnar Samuelsson's point (the scholar in the article) is that the Bible is being misinterpreted in regards to the death of Jesus, which probably has more to do with ignorance than anything. But let's say your claim is true, that people are purposely misconstruing the Bible and using it to manipulate people. How would mixing up one minor detail about Jesus' death make that goal easier? Why does it matter if Jesus did or didn't die on a cross?

reply to post by townio


But if you scroll down and read the bottom of the link you suggested, It said thid:"pieces of bone had been misidentified and some of the bone fragments were from another individual[3], the lack of traumatic injury to the forearm and metacarpals of the hand suggested the arms were tied rather than nailed to the cross[4] and Jehohanan may have extended his arms upward on a crux simplex (simple upright stake)"

So even the Jehohanan dude wasnt crucified.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Destiny Curious]

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Destiny Curious]

Originally posted by Cor Leonis
This is a news flash! After Yashua's (Jesus) ressurection it is recorded that he showed his disciples where the nails had pierced his flesh.

That's not a "record".
It's an episode in a religious story.

Written by someone who never met a historical Jesus.

In fact, it is the view of modern NT scholars that NOT ONE of the NT books was written by anyone who met a historical Jesus.

Amongst all the early Christian writings, there is only ONE claim to have met Jesus - in the forged 2nd century 2 Peter.

How's that !

NOT ONE genuine claim to have met Jesus
Or Mary or Joseph or Lazarus etc. etc.

None of the person whp WROTE these stories ever actually met anyone IN the stories.

It's all myth.



Kap

Originally posted by Tayesin
Jesus/Jeshua must have been mentioned in some writings from the time.

Actually no, he is not.

There is NO contemporary historical evidence for Jesus, or the Gospel events or Christian characters.

None.

The contemporary Philo moved in the same circles and times as the alleged Jesus - he makes NO mention of him.

Nor did the 1st C. Justus of Tiberias from Galilee make any mention of Jesus.

Nor did contemporary Seneca.

Originally posted by Tayesin
I base that on a couple of documentary series some time ago called, "Jesus the Man" and "The Life and Times of Jesus" in which historians showed where references and reports from the time are made.

What we have is LATER reports of Christian BELIEFS.

That's completely DIFFERENT to records of Jesus or the Gospel events themselves.

Originally posted by Tayesin
As an example, they included a lengthy record from a person who had been present at the family's Festive meal where Jesus is said to have turned water into wine. The report said when he was asked by his mother to fetch the wine, he gave everyone wine instead of only the wealthy, and watered down old wine to the plebs... which is a different spin on the 'miracle' of turning water into wine.

There is NO such record.

Originally posted by Tayesin
Recently in another documantary about Jesus's Family it spoke about the records from his family. Such things as how James was older and the son of another man, as were the older sisters, etc.

There are NO records of Jesus or his family.

Originally posted by Tayesin
There is far more information from ancient sources of the day that show the real story has been modified somewhat over the millenia.

There is NO historical records about Jesus what-so-ever.

All we have is 2nd century reports of BELIEFS about Jesus.

But there is NO authentic records of ANYONE, even Christians, EVER meeting Jesus or any other Christian figure in the Gospel accounts.


Kap


[edit on 26-6-2010 by Kapyong]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Kapyong]

reply to post by ChickenPie


Because it makes him a icon. A martyr not even just one who willingly took a position to die for all those sinful people. But one who offered him self to the most horrible torture and death at the time.

It will be remembered. A lot more then if he would have just broke his neck being hung from a tree.

If his followers would have understand his teachings and followed them they should have placed themselves in between. Instead they saved there own butts. Leaving him to be the offer while they should have been prepared to gave their lives for him as he did for them. Then they would have understand his teachings.

Maybe it was a test and we were not ready ?

If it all really did happen...

Anyway... An epic death with a divine ending has proven to be a successful formula to build a religion on.

I'll bet it would not have been so successful if he were just hung from a tree.

So this would also mean that Peter the Apostle was not crucified (upsidedown) either? its not surprising that they havent found much physical evidence of this. the Qur'an mentions crucifixion several times. According to encyclopedia britannica 2009, crucifixion was an important method of capital punishment from the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD.
Crucifixion


interesting article though.

One would think that a scholar who had written a 400 page thesis would have offered specifics instead of generalities. He discounted the gospels out of hand, he doubted Thomas putting his finger in the nail holes and generally revealed his ignorance. Very little was written of the historical Jesus, i think maybe Josephus mentioned him.

reply to post by State of Mind


If this guy is not lying , I assume you can also kiss the dictionary goodbye.

History is written by those in power. The churge has had a lot of power for a long time.

It is by far not the only existing lie we learn at school.

This isn't the first time this issue has been raised on ATS

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Totally worth the read


Unless your just posting to say "a bunch of crap" Or 'don't tread on my cross'

However...if your interested in historical proofs of the written record or tradition VS history...Lots of info at that thread.

X

reply to post by Kapyong

# Ancient scrolls reveal that Jesus spent seventeen years in India and Tibet
# From age thirteen to age twenty-nine, he was both a student and teacher of Buddhist and Hindu holy men
# The story of his journey from Jerusalem to Benares was recorded by Brahman historians
# Today they still know him and love him as St. Issa.

The Lost Years of Jesus: The Life of Saint Issa

In 1894 Nicolas Notovitch published a book called The Unknown Life of Christ. He was a Russian doctor who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet.

Notovitch learned, while he was there, that there existed ancient records of the life of Jesus Christ.

One of his skeptics was Swami Abhedananda. Abhedananda journeyed into the arctic region of the Himalayas, determined to find a copy of the Himis manuscript or to expose the fraud. His book of travels, entitled Kashmir O Tibetti, tells of a visit to the Himis gonpa and includes a Bengali translation of two hundred twenty-four verses essentially the same as the Notovitch text. Abhedananda was thereby convinced of the authenticity of the Issa legend.

In 1925, another Russian named Nicholas Roerich arrived at Himis. Roerich, was a philosopher and a distinguished scientist. He apparently saw the same documents as Notovitch and Abhedananda. And he recorded in his own travel diary the same legend of St. Issa. Speaking of Issa, Roerich quotes legends which have the estimated antiquity of many centuries.

Just a few excerpts from the Biography of Issa.

"Beware, ye, who divert men from the true path and who fill the people with superstitions and prejudices, who blind the vision of the seeing ones, and who preach subservience to material things. "...

Then Pilate, ruler of Jerusalem, gave orders to lay hands upon the preacher Issa and to deliver him to the judges, without however, arousing the displeasure of the people.

But Issa taught: "Do not seek straight paths in darkness, possessed by fear. But gather force and support each other. He who supports his neighbor strengthens himself

It's my belief these records of Jesus (Issa) were not acceptable to King James - as - Jesus (Issa) goes on to teach the value of Women. Something King James was sure to leave out of his translation of the Bible at every turn. (See the Apocrypha's)

At this time, an old woman approached the crowd, but was pushed back. Then Issa said, "Reverence Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit." (Visit the linkfor full text - it's beautiful)

So, there's your 'no recorded history of.'

Though these writings are disputed of course they are at best; '"If we understand M.. Notovitch rightly," said Muller, "this life of Christ was taken down from the mouths of some Jewish merchants who came to India immediately after the Crucifixion. "' - Still a recoded work of his Life. link

(Above 'quote box' use only to stand out among text)

So it's ALL disputed! What's new!

It just brings us back to the original subject and article in this thread.

It's your belief, against my belief.

It's the belief of the man who wrote the article the Christ was not crucified.

It's the belief of many the Bible is a work of fiction, as are the Apocrypha, as are the history and biography of Saint Issa.

It's your belief there is no recorder history of Jesus.

It's my belief as a 'Christian Freak' (as another poster to this thread put so eloquently) - That you're both wrong.

The beauty of all of these 'beliefs'?

Free will.

You will be ultimately judged, or not, on your beliefs, as will I.

So let's keep open minds, but be strong in what we believe.

Like it or not it's what guides us, drives us and will ultimately be the the true telling of who we are, when everything else (material) has ceased to exist.

Pretty important that.

peace

[edit on 26-6-2010 by silo13]

reply to post by silo13


Beautiful.

Thanks

You know... I always try not to judge and not be prejudice. Somehow there is someone always around, so convinced and so sure. I'm feeling I could kill them on the spot. Not for their belief (s) but because of the attitude.

If you would feel the same way I do about the image I got from religious looneys and religion design to create power and to yield it as such.

Being judged is not so bad. What if I can come in ? I'd doubt I'd go.


Their is something going on IMO. Or My understanding of faith is that it does not resemble what I've seen.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

You know... I always try not to judge and not be prejudice. Somehow there is someone always around, so convinced and so sure. I'm feeling I could kill them on the spot. Not for their belief (s) but because of the attitude.

I used to feel that way - when people got snide with the 'Jesus freak' accusations, jeering 'It's a hoax! God's no better than an imaginary friend! It's fairy tale' accompanied by fists pounding on the table or raised in the air.
Yeah, I felt that way until I took a close look at the people judging me and realized I'd probably feel exactly the same way they did if I didn't have a belief system as a 'center' to my life.

If you would feel the same way I do about the image I got from religious looneys and religion design to create power and to yield it as such.

Hey, I grew up with them. Parents that kept strict Church hours on Sundays and Wednesdays but forgot God the rest of the week. It should have turned me off to religion. And it did. TO RELIGION. But not God.

What if I can come in ? I'd doubt I'd go.

That's your path. For whatever reason it isn't time. Until it is no one can convince you. Especially not the 'religious'. They do you more harm than good.

heir is something going on IMO. Or My understanding of faith is that it does not resemble what I've seen.

I think so too.

Societies becoming so passive and accepting of EVERYTHING it's scary.
It's my opinion people have to have something to believe in, something to defend, or they end up becoming nothings. That's where society is headed. A bunch of cookie-cutter stamp out people. Drones. Nothing but cut-out men.

But there's hope for some. Like the author of the article you posted.
Even believers are looking for answers. Even the 'religious' peoples are coming to understand that RELIGION is not right, and the farthest thing from 'God' there is on the planet.

Yeah, somethings going on. Will be interesting to see where it goes from there.

peace