Charles Darwin was mentally ill

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If I understand correctly, the OP presents a deductive fallacy:

continued:

1. Mentally ill people come to outlandish and untrue conclusions.
2. Darwin was mentally ill, therefore his scientific conclusions were outlandish and untrue.
3. Therefore there IS a God and atheism and materialism are factually incorrect.

I don't know, maybe you should ask him first rather than be presumptuous enough to criticize suppositions you haven't verified he is making

1. Mentally ill people come to outlandish and untrue conclusions.
2. Darwin was mentally ill, therefore his scientific conclusions were outlandish and untrue.
3. Therefore there IS a God and atheism and materialism are factually incorrect.

The problems with these deductions are:

1. Mentally ill people also come to true conclusions.
2. Modern science supports Darwin's conclusions.
3. Mentally healthy people also come to outlandish and untrue conclusions.

The deduction (that there is a God and that atheism is factually incorrect) has nothing to do with the premise of the argument (that Darwin was supposedly mentally ill).

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
Wait, gonna slightly derail the thread right here. So a spiritual theist is someone who doesn't believe in a literal God, but he/she does believe in some form of God, right?

Not necessarily.

I don't believe in ANY God or conscious single creator (outside of nature) but I do believe that we human beings have a spiritual aspect that exists before and after we die. In fact, I believe that we ARE spirits, in possession of a temporary body and mind. I also believe in the possibility that a collective of these "spirits" is responsible for our being here on this Earth.

sure seems that way

People make the assumption that believing in an after life or a spiritual aspect is automatically connected to a belief in a supreme creator (deity). Atheist means lacking a belief in a deity. Period. It doesn't imply anything more, but people like to put labels on others and therefore like to think of atheists as lacking spiritualism, morality and values.

Because of the fun.

Well their is an argument that can be made for that but it isn't something I am inclined to explain time is not permitting

Use your imagination, be inspired, where does thought come from, and how did religion evolve into scientific theory?

Thought, Prayer, contemplation, imagination, inspiration, consciousness, meditation, all play a role in the mind of a scientist, or creator, or artist, or musician,

I don't know how people can separate the spiritual from the material, to be a well rounded individual read the spiritual and the scientific,

The atheists say, I am better because I don't believe,

The religious say, I am better because I do.

Stop it.

The spiritual and the scientific work together.

"The internal universe, the real is infinitely greater than the external, which is only a shadow projection of the true one. This world is neither true nor untrue,

it is the shadow of the truth.”

“Matter is only externalized thought.”
Vivekananda

Broaden your horizon, either way you are closing your minds to greater possibilities, what a boring world this would be without the heart/mind/soul of the mystic.

It is all a great mystery, whether you try to find the answer to truth through science or through the spiritual path it is still the great mystery.

[edit on 103030p://bSaturday2010 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Now that I could possibly believe in, if there was just some proof.

That I cannot do, but imagine the possibility?

I always admired and respected you freeborn,

Originally posted by Prosecutor

Originally posted by Phlynx


Ever notice how African's are tall and skinny? That is so they have a longer body, so that they don't heat up as fast from body temperatures, it also allows more area for wind hit to cool them down, due to them being from a hot zone.

Is this the Johansen study? or your own contrivance?

How does being closer to the ground conserve body temperature when the ground is usually ice and snow.

Ever notice how African's are tall and skinny? That is so they have a longer body, so that they don't heat up as fast from body temperatures,

Must be hell for the children being so short and all huh

Some things in evolution have no use, such as skin color. If there is something with no use, it stays, if there is something that is harmful, it usually kills the carrier, so that they do not reproduce. Good things spread, because it gives an advantage.

Yes I understand that but it it has limits that have been tested and those limits have been re-tested and observed. If anything would have proven a transition in the making, the domestic dog would have, but what we see in the most varied animal breeding is Big Dogs small dogs tuff dogs skinny dogs even dogs with polka dots but all of em have all the distinct characteristics of dogs and we seem to have hit a limit to what they can produce. When science can come up with a plausible explanation for how male and female reproduction evolved without using any speculations, I would love to hear another try.

The height and location was a study, I just don't remember where I found it.
People with more muscle or fat tend to conserve heat, pretty obvious logic. Also height allows for faster circulation of body heat. It's common sense.

The reason dog breeds due that is because they where domesticated and bread for the traits by humans! I really hate having to use critical thinking skills for other people.

Originally posted by Prosecutor

Well lets put it more to the point then shall we, because if evolution is true, you need a new mechanism to carry it today. I mean when it comes down to it, you expect me to think we came from a rock. We have trilobites for petes sake that haven't changed an iota, every type of insect from roaches to dragon flies millions and millions of years old , I'm talking every bug you see today we have seen in amber from that long ago and none have changed a bit and none look like they are in any transition of becoming anything else.

I think you're interpreting this wrongly. What I mean by that is the initial form might still have survived along with the mutated/evolved variety. There are other instances where the original is no longer around and a great many things might have been found in amber but a greater number.... not.

Mutation and evolution does not necessitate that the original form dies off. There are also examples I feel certain, I'm not a scientist, where mutated and evolved forms die off and the original lives on. Evolutionary "dead ends" so to speak. I think you've exaggerated a bit, there are bugs and other living things today that have never been "seen in amber", they were not around to be so encased.

What is metaphysical?

How do you explain the supernatural?

I have had supernatural experiences, but perhaps they are really natural, and only supernatural because they are inexplicable.



Why isn't it possible that there is a grand architect of the universe we live in?

We create, why can't there be a creator?

If we look at what scientist are doing today, why is it so hard to believe someone came before them?

REFILE-UPDATE 4-Mini-Big Bangs created in cosmos origins project
Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:41pm EDT


GENEVA, March 30 (Reuters) - Physicists smashed sub-atomic particles into each other with record energy on Tuesday, creating thousands of mini-Big Bangs like the primeval explosion that gave birth to the universe 13.7 billion years ago.

Mysterious dark matter, new dimensions may be found

www.reuters.com...

Lookie they even use the word mysterious.

See they don't know,

"These are the known unknowns, but there are unknown unknowns out there which could make us radically revise our view of how the universe works," Bertolucci said.

Perhaps this is how god creates new heavens and new earths, in the last days Knowledge will increase, but after the last day is a new dawn.

Ok I'm done.

I think a lot of people incorrectly use the words "Mental Illness" negatively to describe somebody that is crazy and out of their mind. There are people that fit this description, but most people who suffer from a Mental Illness simply have a part of their body that is not functioning in a healthy, balanced state.

This does not mean that their intelligence, ideas and ability to reason have somehow been corrupted to a point where their works should be discredited. If anything, it probably suggests that the ideas they were able to articulate while suffering from the condition were only a preview of their actual potential. Especially a condition like Depression, which is heavily rooted in almost every type of mental function of somebody suffering from the condition.

There's a lot of bla-bla around here but when it comes to Reality 9 out of 10 people would not send their kids to a teacher who is suicidal and thinks pursuit of happiness is a "waste of time".

Then there is the group of people saying that if I dont send my kids to the suicidal teacher but instead to the healthy and happy one I am "insulting the mentally ill" , only slightly short of "discriminating against a minority group".

Originally posted by Phlynx
Some things in evolution have no use, such as skin color.

The darker skin, the better protection against UV the person has.

reply to post by Skyfloating


What is it with you and the extremes of mental ilnesses? Mental illness doesn't necessarily mean that the person is harmful to others. I don't care if the teacher is suicidal or just depressed. As long as it doesn't interfere with the teacher's job it's not a problem.
I'm more worried about a random kid in the class going nuts and killing all the other kids with his daddy's rifle..

[edit on 26/6/2010 by DGFenrir]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
There's a lot of bla-bla around here but when it comes to Reality 9 out of 10 people would not send their kids to a teacher who is suicidal and thinks pursuit of happiness is a "waste of time".

Then there is the group of people saying that if I dont send my kids to the suicidal teacher but instead to the healthy and happy one I am "insulting the mentally ill" , only slightly short of "discriminating against a minority group".

I would send someone who is mature enough to handle it to a teacher like that. You can't just say something is wrong due to someone's mental illness.

I would expect better arguments from a Mod... unless you are trolling, then this is a very epic troll indeed.

reply to post by Skyfloating


But Darwin wasn't a teacher.

Are you implying that all who teach The Theory Of Evolution suffer from a mental illness?

And I wouldn't want my children being taught by anyone who thought that those with mental and physical illnesses have so as a result of divine karmic justice.

Edit. Changed 'do' with 'have' for clarity.

[edit on 26/6/10 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
There's a lot of bla-bla around here but when it comes to Reality 9 out of 10 people would not send their kids to a teacher who is suicidal and thinks pursuit of happiness is a "waste of time".

Then there is the group of people saying that if I dont send my kids to the suicidal teacher but instead to the healthy and happy one I am "insulting the mentally ill" , only slightly short of "discriminating against a minority group".

But you are incorrectly associating "mentally ill" with "suicidal" when this really is not the case. What do you think is the ratio of people that ARE mentally ill with the number that get diagnosed as being mentally ill? How many times do we hear the media say "out of character for him/her", or neighbours who say the nicest most admirable things about somebody that has just been arrested for chopping up his family and eating their remains?

If it is common knowledge that somebody is suicidal and in a negative frame of mind, of course no decent parent would want their children placed in their care! What you are doing is assuming "well he suffers from Depression and has thought about committing suicide" therefore he is psychotic lunatic and will probably influence my children that these things are normal.

In the case of Darwin, it seems you are indirectly attempting to discredit his claims because he suffered from Depression.

[edit on 26/6/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Daniem
You have successfully offended those who believe in evolution.

Oh those poor believers of Evolution. They lash out at spiritualists and religious-believers 24/7 on the Internet, so they should be able to take a little bit of backlash once in awhile.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
george lucus. genius who created the star wars univers. arguably crazy though cuase he actually thought jar jar binks was a great idea. it wasn't but it still doesn't detract from the fact that star wars is friggen awesome.

Sky has really opened a can of worms with this topic. Good work S.F.!

And out of it all comes perhaps one of the most lucid quotes I have ever had the pleasure of reading on ATS.

A star and light-saber for you, BASSPLYR!

Originally posted by Prosecutor
I don't know, maybe you should ask him first rather than be presumptuous enough to criticize suppositions you haven't verified he is making

I did ask. Here

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And since you didn't answer my first post on page 2, I will ask again, in a different way. What are you suggesting with the OP? That because Darwin may have been "mentally ill", that there is a God after all? Basically, is that what you're suggesting? That because Darwin was conflicted and ill, all his work is hogwash and evolution and atheism are bunk? I would just like a clear answer to that, please.

Thanks.

But the OP didn't answer. And so, in the post you quoted, I said. "If I understand correctly..."

Well their is an argument that can be made for that but it isn't something I am inclined to explain time is not permitting

Perhaps when you have more time, you can explain what this means...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
There's a lot of bla-bla around here but when it comes to Reality 9 out of 10 people would not send their kids to a teacher who is suicidal and thinks pursuit of happiness is a "waste of time".

Not that you will answer this question either, but what does sending our kids to a suicidal teacher have to do with whether or not the teachings of that teacher are true?

There SEEMS to be a lot of logical fallacies flying around.

[edit on 6/26/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Hemisphere
There are I think uncountable reasons for depression and mental illness. I could imagine that Darwin was frustrated by so much of his world being opposed to the discoveries he had made. I can imagine that would be as depressing as having a spiritual belief and that spiritual belief being out of the mainstream

Yes, you can imagine. Or you can just take his rejection of happiness (described in the OP) as the obvious reason for his Depression.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

There SEEMS to be a lit of logical fallacies flying around.

I think you can replace that SEEMS with IS.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Daniem
You have successfully offended those who believe in evolution.

Oh those poor believers of Evolution. They lash out at spiritualists and religious-believers 24/7 on the Internet, so they should be able to take a little bit of backlash once in awhile.

Lash out? Erm.. you have said anyone who's had mental illness lacks credibility (and no I'm not twisting your words.. that is exactly your meaning). Just because you have a "thing" against ToE doesn't mean you should start saying that the opinions of people with mental illness are "less than" everyone else's.

Btw. I have had clinical depression and it never effected my judgment or intellect.. but I'm wondering.. do you think posters with clinical depression have less credible posts than ones that don't..?

[edit on 26-6-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Daniem
You have successfully offended those who believe in evolution.

Oh those poor believers of Evolution. They lash out at spiritualists and religious-believers 24/7 on the Internet, so they should be able to take a little bit of backlash once in awhile.

So this thread is pretty much about you being all hurt do to the few evolutionists who do lash out at the religious? So you, as a Mod, make a giant bait thread for the evolutionists to come to, swarming like sharks to blood?

So this is just a giant rant because you are all hurt that people discuss there opinions on the internet, and use science?

Wow.

Originally posted by UmbraSumus
" Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell and spirituality is for those who have already been there " - Ingersoll

I like that one, that one is worth copy/pasting to my harddrive (something one can rarely say of any post).