Charles Darwin was mentally ill

reply to post by zzombie


But your image of lightning striking a mud puddle is still a straw man fallacy in every sense.

The wikipedia page shows Darwin's own words

"warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, so that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes".

Complex changes, does that sound like something that would take place suddenly when lightning strikes or GRADUALLY? As for the soup theory

These would combine in ever-more complex fashions until they formed coacervate droplets

Abiogenesis

Does that sound like something that's taking place all at once from lightning or gradually via chemical processes?

Abiogenesis has never been fully proven and there are still quite a few prevalent theories today but none of them correspond to your statements and all involve massive timescales, not a sudden spark, before the proto-organisms would even be considered life.

I also find it funny that people use that kind of straw man, mentioning lightning like it would magically transform mud into life when making life from mud via magic is exactly how most religious versions of the creation story start

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm certain there are many atheists who came to their beliefs on their own, without the help of Darwin, insane or not.

I'm one of those people. Maybe growing up going to catholic school did it.

Originally posted by BlackOps719
Is it better to be happy while placing your faith into something that doesn't exist, or miserable because you know the reality and the gravity of your fate?

Interesting question. I think it's better to be happy and content knowing and accepting that we can't possibly know our future and therefore, living in the present. I mean, why does it have to be either/or?

Great list!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I would agree.


For all of man's philosophy and technology and best made efforts, we truly do not know where we come from or what comes next. It is entirely possible to live a happy, fulfilling existence without having to rely on the crutch of religion or an etheral being that cannot be proven or validated.

And yes, quite a list. All of those folks were documented as depressive. I think a few of them may have done ok for themselves

Beethoven. was always depresed. there were times when he would let it get the best of him and he literally quit piano for a few years in anger at his shortcomings. but to say that the bulk or even most of his work was shoddy cause he was depresed is simply a bad logical conclusion. It's non sequiter. Even crazy his work was by and large very well regarded. Same with darwin. even if he was crazy his theories were still more or less acurate. his mental health had nothing to do with it.

Napolian. great military stratatician. but a little bit loony. patton same thing. military genius. it's hard to say he wasn't. but he was also nuts and thought he was a reincarnated egyptian general. still doesn't discount his accomplishements. george lucus. genius who created the star wars univers. arguably crazy though cuase he actually thought jar jar binks was a great idea. it wasn't but it still doesn't detract from the fact that star wars is friggen awesome.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I haven't gotten through the entire thread yet, but I had to comment on this. Darwin was actually rather astute by electrocuting himself to cure his depression. Even today electroconvulsive therapy remains to this day as the most effective means of dealing with severe depression.

Well, if a mentally ill person came up to me and presented me a theory that has SOLID proof and evidence, I'd accept that any day over the proof-less and baseless statements of religious people.

Darwin presented scientific backup that holds up scrutiny. Religious people base their belief on a book written by MEN!! It's pure guesswork, no scientific backup, and no proof whatsoever. And what makes it even worse, their whole belief is based aroudn a super being...and there is ZERO evidence or proof that it even exists

Nice try attacking Darwin OP, but sadly you're attacking the person and not his theories...you're doing this because his theories are solid and verifiable.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Nevermind Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shintoism, Christianity, Islam, Native American Spirituality and countless other sources who ALL teach of an invisible life force or an intelligent and creative energy as the source of all. Lets instead take a mentally ill persons word for it that humans came about as a matter of coincidence and that a humans Consciousness does not.

...

And you are surprized that people call you stupid?

people like myself are too frequently vilified as mentally ill, stupid, deluded

There's perfectly logical explanation for this.

1) How old are those religions? What did people KNOW at the time the religion started. Those were primitive times, people thought friggin lightning was cast by gods. They didnt know better, so they used their imagination.

2) Why do you THINK there are so many religions?..
Cause people like to MAKE things up. It is wise to believe there is an invisible supernice good force that made everything, just because many old primitive religions tech that there is? Or is hundreds of years of scientific study wise to believe in?

3) Lets take Darwins word for it? What does this even mean.. you think someone read his book and went; OK.. lets take his word for it. now lets teach this in all schools around the world. You realize that thousands of people have closely examined and studied evolution for ca 100s of years. And all they find is more proof to back up evolution.


Evolution is real, but not to people who are brainwashed into beliving other creation stories, like you, and NOT taught about evolution, as you clearly dont know much about. You have to realize that some things are myths, and some things are facts. You seem to have things twisted.


And you are surprized that people call you stupid? Learn about evolution before you speak about it, and then come and tell us how wrong we are in believing these horrid, horrid facts of evolution. Then we'll realy know how stupid you are.

people like myself are too frequently vilified as mentally ill, stupid, deluded

Tell me 1 thing. What proof do you have thsat a barrier or force exists, that hinders a species from diverging so much that they evolve into a new species? Where is this barrier?

There would have to be one in order for evolution to not be true.


You SHUN your own gods creation.
You wont even learn basic science so you can understand how your own god's creation works. you think you can learn about it in a book written thousands of years ago.

You reject your gods reality when you refuse to learn basic science, like evolution, and instead believe scripture written by men, who could have been lying.

You are choosing man over your own god when you choose scripture over reality.


I wish to understand this reality you believe was created by your god. I admire that reality, I am inspired by that reality and I want to know all about it. Those like you shun your god's own creation while obsessing with a man-made book which contradicts the reality you think god created.

[edit on 25/6/2010 by Daniem]

reply to post by Skyfloating


I get a lot of those same symptoms. Just because someone was mentally ill does not make them wrong. Why should mental illness come in to play at all when it comes to someone's crediblity?
I think a lot of free spirits and free thinkers are labeled as mentally ill by soceity this in turns make us feel stress. Then we get sick and we get all these symptoms.

reply to post by Skyfloating


one may not ever truly know what they have until after they lose it.

sure, i can concede that Charles Darwin was mentally ill.
but, that describes everyone i've ever met.

maybe Charles Darwin just didn't want to be alone, and to be less alone he had to be mentally ill to "fit in" with the popular crowd.

we share more than 99.7+% of the same dna, charles and i.

to say he is mentally ill, is in effect to say i am mentally ill, also.

who am i to call the OP ATSer a liar?
who am i and what do i know?

Flag and Star.

thoughts, things and stuff,
ET

I believe that things will slowly "evolve" to suit their naturally changing world/environment. I do not believe that one species can "evolve" into a different species. If we evolved from monkeys and apes, why are there still monkeys and apes? I would say that everything is "designed" and follows the Laws of Nature (God).

reply to post by Starbug3MY


Humans and modern apes/monkeys evolved from a common ancestor. We did not evolve from the species that are here now. This argument gets brought up in every evolution bashing thread, but promptly gets shut down because it holds no water.

Hmm lets look at the "believers" from a clinical aspect...

If I go into a shrink, and tell him that I speak to a being that I cant see, on a daily or weekly basis, and this being created everything you see.. and that the being all knowing, some people even claim to be told things by this imaginary being and they carry them out. This imaginary being has a entire story surrounding it, including another imaginary beings that live in lakes of fire and brimstone etc.. And that this imaginary being has never been seen nore actually hear or recorded in any medium etc. And that this being is judging me and if im good ill get to live with him forever and ever.. and if not i have to go burn in fire and brimstone for ever and ever.... you get the point..

So really, who is more mentally ill, the believers or the non believers?

reply to post by Starbug3MY

If we evolved from monkeys and apes, why are there still monkeys and apes?

Oh COME ON.. seriously.. how many religious people are gonna ask this? DONT ANYONE of you know anything about evolution? You talk smack about it, yet you dont even have the faintest idea of how it works.

"Why are there still monkeys and apes" Well why are there still fish, if all land life evolved from sea life? Why do you think? (they didnt all need to evolve)


No living ape is our ancestor (or even very much like our ancestor to an anatomist). So if by "ape" (or "monkey") you mean a chimp or a macaque or an orangutan, no, we are not evolved from these ugly beasts.

A species evolves into whatever suits the local conditions of the population it evolves from; it may be bigger brained or smaller brained, or for that matter bigger or smaller).

The rest of the species remains. So we end up with an increase in the diversity of life.

Monkeys remain because we are monkeys, and so are chimps, orangs, and all those other primates. All of them remain because they evolved by the multiplication of taxa.

[edit on 25/6/2010 by Daniem]

reply to post by Starbug3MY

If we evolved from monkeys and apes, why are there still monkeys and apes?

Because only one species of ape evolved into us and WE'RE STILL IT.

Evolution branches off in more and more diverse ways, surely you don't think every single kind of monkey or ape should have vanished just because one such species became us do you?

And by the way, WE are still apes.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR


Like I said. beethoven. mentally ill. still a great composer and musician the two had no coorelation, as is often the case.

I spent a great deal of my time studying the music and life of Beethoven. I don't remember Beethoven ever being mentally ill. Beethoven was known to be of a bad temper, but he noted in his journal that he was often considered rude for not responding appropriately to others, but that it was his increasing deafness that caused this problem of not hearing or understanding people who would address him publicly.

Beethoven was a musician who started going deaf at a fairly early age and one can only imagine the distress this must have caused him, but that does not mean that he was mentally ill. Sadness, anger, and even bitterness are appropriate responses to this kind of potentially debilitating illness.

What is more, Beethoven suffered from a "bowel" ailment that cause him much pain.

Beethoven fought many battles in his life, including a fight for the custody rights of his nephew and with the publishers of his music.

Is there any wonder that he might have been reclusive and even sometimes depressed?

What is a wonder is that he created some of the most beautiful music the world has ever heard and did so even after he was completely deaf.

What ever "mental" symptoms Beethoven might have suffered were situational and therefore not correctly considered mental illness.

It is also very likely that this was also the condition with Darwin. It is a very tricky thing to try to diagnose people who are dead and have been dead for so long.

It is interesting to take the available evidence and speculate as to what our forebears might have suffered, but in many if not most cases these are nothing more than speculations.

Every symptom of mental illness is a perfectly normal response to certain stimuli. A person who wins the lottery might show signs of mania. A person whose spouse dies might be subject to profound sadness and even illusions of the presence of his departed loved one. Lose enough sleep and you will hallucinate. The list goes on.

The OP is completely without any clinical merit. It is okay to speculate about such things, but the conclusions drawn are baseless.


[edit on 2010/6/25 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
"I am ready to commit suicide"
- Charles Darwin 1875

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/625ecb06d030.jpg[/atsimg]

I don't know about him being ill, but look at that picture. look at the deep set eyes and the wide face. No wonder he believed in ape ancestors. he looks like one. Must be true.

he was depressed and sick because the devil was giving him deluded ideas about the creation of humanity to discredit God and mislead the masses. the theory of evolution makes absolutely no sense and it has more holes in it than swiss cheese. his observation on the camouflage of certain moths to the bark of trees actually prove the opposite, since the odds of a moth naturally evolving wings and a body that match a tree perfectly are about the same odds as a soldier in iraq growing rocks and sand on his skin to blend in the desert.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
In spiritual culture good works can only come from someone of healthy mind, body and spirit.

...there are countless cultures with spiritual overtones or roots - but - they dont all cherish all of the same ideals, as you have inferred... additionally, there are countless spiritual people who do not see themselves as part of any particular group...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
In atheist culture there is the cliche that good works can also come from people who are psychotic and deranged or that "geniuses are mostly crazy".

...there is no such thing as "atheist culture"... the only thing that unilaterally connects all atheists is disbelief in deities - thats it - thats all... there are atheists who are very spiritual, some who believe in reincarnation, some believe in ghosts...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
civilizations main source of life-advice was, until last century, found in religious works

...thats not true... humans were not idiots before religion became popular - but - religion did have the phenonmenal impact of turning many humans into idiots...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I can have a blast holding a mirror up to those who throw around words such as "mentally ill" to describe spiritual people.

...that says a lot about your spirituality (ie: its broken, competitive, immature, narcississtic, negative)...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Do you think kids would be well advised to skip school and go study from people in mental asylyms instead?

...instead?... no... however, i believe it would an excellent exercise to take highschoolers for day visits to asylums (under protective conditions, of course) because they would learn about a world that is sequestered and demonized by compassionless idiots... for example, they might learn that there are some people in asylums that were once brilliant productive members of society and that mental illness is an equal opportunity destroyer...

Originally posted by LarryLove
Who here will be brave enough to say they have suffered from mental illness in their life.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
In my world they get care and counseling.

...there are millions suffering from mental illness that NEVER get care or counseling because they cant afford it... since your world is so perfect, why dont you open the doors and let the poor who are suffering come to you?...

reply to post by randomname


I've never seen a more rubbish post in all my life, once again my hope for humanity sinks as low as it can go.

Mental Illness was caused by Satan? What are we living in the dark ages again? I suppose we should practice blood letting and start up the Inquisitions again as well

You might want to research evolution, the evidence for it is irrefutable, we've directly observed speciation numerous times - that's the moment a species becomes a different species. Evolution is directly observed and even if it wasn't it is also evident in the fossil record and genetics.

You also might want to realize that simply because an idea has a few gaps in it doesn't mean you need to conjure up magical beings or deities to fill those gaps. Also I am quite positive that you have no education on evolution outside what religious propaganda has insidiously inserted into you. This is known as the God of gaps fallacy, the idea that whatever science hasn't quite figured out yet must require a God.

This is the 21st Century, information is a click away, ignorance is no longer an excuse. Its also not a good choice to ignore scientific evidence in favor of blind faith, you're ignoring what is evidently true in "God's" Universe.





[edit on 25-6-2010 by Titen-Sxull]