posted on Jun, 20 2004 @ 12:08 PM
It seems that many on this thread do not understand much about the political underpinnings of what became the Roman Catholic Church in the 3rd and 4th
centuries AD, or have any real understanding of the the complex religio-political world in which the Roman Church had to cope with in order to
survive, to become, eventually "the Official State Religion" of the Roman Empire.
And "the outward pagan-like and complicated ritual trappings of the Catholic Church" (including Pagan Feast Days like the Mass of Chrsit on December
25) certainly had come a long way away from its humbler, simpler beginnings in Palestine under a leader who led an armed rebellion with his tiny band
of followers against the forces of mighty Rome during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, and paid the ultimate penalty for his crime.
Paganism (from the Latin word "paganus" meaning "village", i.e the last people to "get converted" to any "new" faith, being out there in the
remoter parts, away from the "fast cities", and thus more likely to cling on to the Old Ways, e.g. northern Scotland still has villages of
pre-Christian Wicca to this day) existed for hundreds of centuries before "Messianism" arose in Palestine, which eventually gave birth to the early
"Christian Church" who were originally "Messianic Last Days" Jews.
The first "Christians" were Messianic Jews themselves, just like the Dead Sea Scroll Sect in Qumran, all anxiously awaiting their Jewish Messiah
figure to save Israel from its political enemies and reinstate the Davvids on the Throne of Israel: that was their original message "These be the
Days of Vengeance of our God: the Times of the Gentiles is Fulfulled, Prepare yourselves for the Coming of the Kingdom of Heaven " etc.
The ideas which formed the pieces of the Jewish Messianic movement arose back in the 8th century BC: first after the Assyrian invasions of Palestine
way back in 722 BC when the 10 lost tribes were skirted out of the coutnry, and the process and "popular reaction" snowballed from there: Some Day
YHWH would send us another Daviddic King to overthrow the Gentile Overlords !
But other invasions and deportations of Judaea quickly followed : Babylon, then Persia, then Greece and finally, after 100 years of semi Independence
under the Macabbees, Rome itself invaded Jerusalem in 63 BC, which stared Messianic Hopes all over again.
Precisely 100 years later, in AD 36, during the end of the "ministry" of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef ("Jeeeezuzzzz") , the Romans (whom the Judaeans
nicknamed "The Kittim") were the target of several carefully planned counter-revolutions.
Even "Jeeezuzzz" himself (Luke chapter 22:18) armed his disciples on the hill with swords to take back the land of Israel ("These be the Days of
Vengeance: the Times of the Gentiles is Fulfilled" as it says in Luke's gospel, which is a direct quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls [War Scroll,
They thought they were living in the LAST DAYS: they had no need for elaborate feast day rituals: that came after the 2nd Coming never showed up and
the Church was left....well, with just a Church.
300 years later, the peculiar 4th century "Roman" form of Christianity (yes, there were at least 50 different "Christianities" from Gnostic to
Adoptionist, to Docetic, which emerged all claiming to have preserved the "true teachings of Iesous" that emerged between AD 40 and AD 340)
eventually became the "normative" church---and anyone veering from the rule was a "heretic", to be put down by force, including the burning of
It was the See of Rome, the biggest, richest, and most politically influential of all the Chrisitan communities that eventually in the 4th century
seized control of "what constituted heresies", especially after the See of Rome eventually became "The Seat" of the Official Religion of the Roman
The powerful Roman Church organization centered in the Capitol of Rome itself, clearly found it easier to swallow Paganism and pagan practices and
digest its belief system than to fight it---thus the external trappings, holidays, vestments, liturgical hymns etc. of the cults of Mithas the Savior
(the most popular competitor to all the Christianities floating around back then) and Sol Invictus (the two cults, that of Mithras and Sol Invictus,
the "Unconquerable Sun" were joined in some cities) were borrowed wholesale by the Roman Catholic Chuch including the birth-day of the god (December
It's the old Adage: If you Can't Beat 'em, Join 'em.
Even the idea of the socalled "Eucharist" (a Mithraic technical liturgical term) which portrayed a divine Meal or Communion with the god was all
borrowed from the Roman Mystery cults, but very few "Christians", especially the innocent "sheep" on this thread, are not allowed to know these
Here's your first Clue:
Paul was born in TARSUS the capital of Roman Mithraism, and introduced the bread and wine thing (I Corinthians 15) in a whole new Mithraic way (by
"drinking the blood" of the grape, like the followers of Mithras did, 100 years before Iesous was even thought of). He never "met" R. Yehoshua bar
Yosef the Galilean in the flesh during his life: he only knew "Iesous" by dreams and visions, the way my cook knows "Jeeeezuzzz".
Paul, that good old Roman Citizen, who was born in a Greek Speaking city, did not get along with the Palestinian Jews who were a little racist about
"the chosen people", and he fought bitterly (Galatians chapter 2) with some of thethe original disciples (calling them, "so called Pillars" and
"hypocrites!" about eating only Kosher food and about preaching to Gentiles which the first followers of "Iesous" were forbidden to do by
"Jeeeezzzuzzz" himself who "only came to save the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL" like any other good old Messianic Daviddic Pretender would
have done (it was after all the Ingathering of the 10 "lost tribes of Israel" that the Messiah was supposed to bring back to the land of Israel in
the "Last Days" read Trito-Isaiah chpaters 56 to 66 and Jeremiah 35 to 50, etc. )
Notice the words placed in the R. Yehoshua's own mouth in the SyroPhoenecian Woman pericope: ("son of David, have mercy upon me!")
Jeeezzzuzzz answers, rather arrogantly: "Since when is it right to take the Bread of the Children out of their mouths and throw it to the DOGS
gathered under neath the Table?" (Matthew chapter 15)
"Paul", the self appointed Apostle (who defends his title a little too protestingly, if you ask me) and others like him (all professing "Christian
Authority") who came after him in the later half of the 1st century (i.e. after Rome Destroyed Israel and the Temple Cult in Jerusalem in AD 70,
along with "Jesus' "own original Daviddic (Jewish) family blood-line based and disciple-based "Nazorean Church" whcih was likewise virtually
wiped out during the 1st Jewish War Against Rome) was one of the most influential individuals after "Iesous" who TWISTED the orignial Kosher
eating, Gentile Hating Nazorean Jewish-Christianity into a more "universal" and "personal" saviour god very "gentile- friendly-type" religion,
opening the doors to all kinds of Pagan Influence which eventually, centuries after his death, included Sun Worship copy cats (e.g. Dec 25th or the
idea of a dying and resurrecting god every Spring etc.).
The church did all of this ABSORBING OF PAGAN RITES simply BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT STAMP IT OUT, NOR COMPETE WITH IT. So they made it their own.
Some of these pagan practices had already been absorbed by the Jews (Pesach or Passover originally came from the Canaanite PESACH Spring Festival,
dedicated to the Limping God Baal and the Spring Lambs--so even the Jews borrowed heavilly from older and more sophisticated pagan cultures they came
in contact with).
There are over 100 examples of other "Jewish" rituals which had their roots in paganism e.g. the Feast of Tabernacles and the Feast of Sukkhot, but
also other "Jewish" practices in the socalled Torah came from the pagans, including their rituals for burnt offerings, wine/drink offerings, "waive
offerings" , tithing, shrine-temple building, priestly families, vestments, temple ritual paraphenalia, prayers, melodies, chants-Psalms, etc.)
having been themselves derived from an admixture of Canaanite, Egyptian, Syrian and Babylonian ritual practices.
The Christians, which all ultimately started out as "Jews "like their original Teacher, just followed the pattern already setof borrowing and
adapting to their own belief systems, often changing the meaning of the ritual, the way the Christians changed the socalled Jewish Passover Blessing
of the Bread and Wine into the "Eucharist of the Last Supper."
These wholesale borrowings from pagan sources was widespread. No cult on earth just sprang up out of nowhere. They grew out of already established
practices, then morphed into a different religious practice----gradually over many generations, almost imperceptively to the worshipper who eventually
would have grown ignorant of its "pagan" origin.
Even the design of the Jerusalem ("Solomon's") Temple of YHWH is modelled on PAGAN layout/design (complete with a Holy of Holies Cube in the back)
down to exact, specific dimensions (see the Temple of Astarte in Syria dated 1900 BC, long before Moses, which uses the same flood plan as that of
the socalled Jerusalem Temple in the Torah and I Kings
The socalled 1st Jerusalem Temple, or the "Temple of Solomon" was, after all, built by pagan Syro-Phoenecians (Hiram of Tyre, a non Jew, was
contracted to build the Temple of YHWH by Solomon himself), and the Tyrian Sheckel actually became the OFFICIAL TEMPLE CURRENCY of the Jerusalem cult
(cf: the Money Changers in the Temple of "Jeeeezuzzz" during the Temple Tantrum).
No wonder the Roman Chuch saw nothing wrong with wholesale borrowings: it had been done by Jews and Christians for centuries before....and so did
virtually ALL the "Mystery Religions" too borrow heavily from each other (and "Christianity" itself was a MYSTERY RELIGION competing right
alongside the others for converts:
"Behold I Tell you a Mystery" or "To those outside is hidden in Parables the Mystery of the Kingdom of God...")
all who were competing against each other back in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD (e.g. the Mysteries of Mithras, Attis, Demeter-Eleusis, Attanuz-Adonis,
Isis-Osiris, Zeus Piter, Serapion (Osiris-Apis), The Dionysian Mysteries, the Orphic Mysteries, the Pythagorean Mysteries etc.)
There is NOTHING pure (or "non-pagan" about either Chrisitianty's liturgical practices or the "Messianic End of Days" ritual forms of Judaeism
that it ultimately sprang from.
People who call themselves "Chrstians" on this thread should pick up a book (other than their poorly translated "English" Bibles) sometime and
read around their subject a little. It might open their eyes to the "pagan roots" where half of their belief system came from.