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Well, to start off, do you know of any examples of something as complex as the universe coming out of nothing without outside help?
What is your lack of evidence that the God whose name is Jesus does not exist.
The Bible has stated many things that were written hundreds of years ago, that by many who believe them to have been ignorant, have been proved or happening today.
It was not until the 1970's that we discovered that there are fresh water springs in the depths of the oceans.
It was not until the invention of the telegraph that we could send messages by electricity.
All of the fossils around the world are proof of the world wide flood from Noah's day,
Willful ignorance is just being stupid on purpose.
One can deny that which is true but it does not make it go away.
You do have a soul you do inheritlly know right from wrong, you just chose wrong because it feels good temporally.
Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie
You're invoking something for which there is no evidence (God) in order to explain why something for which there is evidence (the Universe) came into existence.
Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by ChickenPie
Once again you are assuming it came into existence out of nothing. Science only has extrapolated back to the Big Bang and at that time there was something, in fact there was everything - it was just condensed into a singularity.
Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
reply to post by Titen-Sxull
What is your lack of evidence that the God whose name is Jesus does not exist.
Originally posted by darkbake
No one can prove that God doesn't exist.
In fact, those that I have met who think that God doesn't exist still believe he does, they just don't like him. Try reading Dawkins. Dawkins doesn't spend a single second of his book "The God Delusion" proving that God doesn't exist. Instead, he spends the entire piece of trash railing on a God that DAWKINS HIMSELF BELIEVES TO EXIST, or else he wouldn't bother to insult Him and his followers.
Two years ago, I was having a crisis and wasn't sure if God existed or not or if I existed / had a soul or not. So do you know what happened?
I assumed that God did not exist, I assumed that free will did not exist. And THAT is when you realize they do, because things don't add up. It is called a proof by contradiction.
I even visualized it at the time. I was walking next to a dark lake, the thick, black water representing nihilism, no free will, no soul, no God. I was very afraid of this lake. And then I thought, "why am I just standing here?" So I jumped in. And do you know what happened? In the darkness, it became easier to see the light.
I saw specks of light all around me representing real, scientific and logical flaws with the idea that God and free will do not exist. I got in contact with Dr. Fred Alan Wolf, a quantum physicist, bought his books and those of a few other authors, and eventually wrote an independent study for my psychology major on a Quantum Theory of Mind that will probably never be taken seriously by the mainstream scientists for anywhere from 30 to 1000 years, when they finally get their heads out of their asses.
Until then, I am still collecting news articles and scientific data to back up my theories.
I am even going to be running a few experiments here eventually, but for this exact moment I am lying low. The world seems to have become very hostile towards those who believe in the *spiritual.*
[edit on 24-6-2010 by darkbake]
Originally posted by ChickenPie
But, unsurprisingly, you missed my point. Considering what you know now (experience, rationality, etc.), what is more logical: a universe, with laws (such as gravity), planets, suns, and life that developed over time from a point of singularity, which came from nothing... arbitrarily, or a universe, with laws (such as gravity), planets, suns, and life that developed over time from a point of singularity, which also came from nothing, but with the help of an intelligent source?
Let me put it this way, (and this isn't an argument against evolution, I accept the theory of evolution) pretend you were actually a neanderthal for a moment, and you were walking around doing whatever it is that neanderthals did... when all of a sudden, you come across a piece of technology, a computer! Would you guess that it arbitrarily came from nothingness without the help of an intelligent source? I'd hope not. The universe is much more complicated than any computer, but for some strange reason it's considered logical to conclude that our universe did indeed arbitrarily come from nothing without the help of any outside intelligence. That's why I asked if any of you atheists have any examples of this actually occurring... Perhaps in nature?
Faith... ouch...
That's a painful word for atheists, but they all have it in one way or another. For example, the whole idea of science (and I love science btw) is that we as humans can observe our reality, experiment on it, and surmise various things using our rationality.
I hate to break this to you, atheists, but to trust in your own (or other's) rationality, as well as your own (or other's) faculties of perception is the definition of faith.
So, perhaps atheists shouldn't make faith out to be the bane of their existence. If i were an atheist, I'd just stick to the whole, "there's no empirical evidence" argument.
I just did.
I think it'd do everyone some good if they looked up the word faith, before claiming that theism is all about faith and science is all about evidence. That couldn't be further from the truth.
No. In regards to science, you need to place trust in your rationality, perception, and technology. In other words, you need faith. There's no getting around that fact. I'm also not going to repeat myself again... If you don't want to learn anything, then that's fine by me.
I don't know where you got the idea that there is absolutely no evidence that there is a God. I think you're lumping empirical evidence together with evidence.
The word "empirical" denotes information gained by means of observation, experience, or experiment. A central concept in science and the scientific method is that all evidence must be empirical, or empirically based, that is, dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical
I believe there is a God because the idea of singularity arbitrarily coming out of nothing, which expanded into a universe, which formed suns, planets, which then formed life... is all too much of a coincidence to be chalked up to mere chance. Of course it takes more faith to believe that an intelligent source is behind it all (there is no empirical evidence for a God after all), but I'm willing to make the leap because of how absurd the contrary conclusion is. As you can see, I'm using rationality (whether you think it poor or not) to conclude that there is a God.
Well, to start off, do you know of any examples of something as complex as the universe coming out of nothing without outside help?
If by "Zeus" you mean one all-knowing and all-powerful God who created everything, then yes. I thought that was obvious.
But, unsurprisingly, you missed my point. Considering what you know now (experience, rationality, etc.), what is more logical: a universe, with laws (such as gravity), planets, suns, and life that developed over time from a point of singularity, which came from nothing... arbitrarily, or a universe, with laws (such as gravity), planets, suns, and life that developed over time from a point of singularity, which also came from nothing, but with the help of an intelligent source?
Let me put it this way, (and this isn't an argument against evolution, I accept the theory of evolution) pretend you were actually a neanderthal for a moment, and you were walking around doing whatever it is that neanderthals did... when all of a sudden, you come across a piece of technology, a computer! Would you guess that it arbitrarily came from nothingness without the help of an intelligent source? I'd hope not. The universe is much more complicated than any computer, but for some strange reason it's considered logical to conclude that our universe did indeed arbitrarily come from nothing without the help of any outside intelligence. That's why I asked if any of you atheists have any examples of this actually occurring... Perhaps in nature?
That's exactly what I'm doing, because it's illogical that something as vast, complex, and orderly as the universe would come into existence arbitrarily. I'm glad we understand each other.
It doesn't matter if singularity came from nothing or if there was an eternal variable that created singularity.
I'm more interested in why you think it's more reasonable to conclude that singularity and everything with it just happened arbitrarily, without any guidance. I find that highly illogical.
And whether or not there is empirical evidence for God shouldn't matter because it's exactly what I'd expect from such an entity. I wouldn't expect God to leave any strong evidence for His existence, because I think He wants us to use our brains. Look around the world... does anything look easy to you? I'd think it inconsistent for a God who doesn't appear to directly intervene with His own creation to leave conclusive evidence that He exists. Don't you agree? And like I told you before, if a being did swoop down and claim that he was God, there would be no good reason to believe him. It doesn't bother me like it does you that I don't have a snapshot of God surfing at His favorite beach. Even if I did have such a snapshot, no one would believe it was God anyway.
How about this... what if God appeared before you this very second? Would you even trust in yourself enough to believe that you just saw God? No? Isn't that funny? But here you are whining about evidence...
If a being appeared before me and turned my coffee to WINE (not whine, lul), and then claimed to be my God, I wouldn't believe him! Never mind that, I wouldn't trust in myself to even go that far. I'd think I was going crazy.
Let's forget about empirical evidence when talking about an idea as complex as God. Maybe one day you'll put away your childish definitions and ideas of God, and then you'll understand.
Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
edit: Please don't do the immature thing and point out my contradiction
Yet, how can one not point out the blatant contradiction. Either you don't know what your real opinion is or you are simply a hypocrite arguing for the sake of argument.
I find the atheists here to be extremly hostile. Why is that? Are atheists not mature enough to accept and understand when and why a believer is fighting for his/hers believes? Don't you have patience when you're an atheists?
I also find this behavior with religious fundamentalist. They are fighting to give the best argument?
I don't think that anybody is really right or wrong here. In my opinion, it's all subjective!! I understand when atheists are tired of religious fundamentalist trying to convert them and tell them to shut the f up, but many then get the immature desire to tell the believer why they are wrong or rather why they THINK the believer is wrong in every statement.
Worst thing is, i'm not really an atheist or religious, but when some religious dude ring on my door bell, i can't fight the desire to tell him/her how wrong they are in their belief.
There is no evidence, the bible is obvious fiction, etc. But i don't really know. When the person leaves, i realize how immature and ignorant i just behaved. Don't know if any of you do the same thing in real life. But i can obviously see that you do on internet forums.
I'm glad i don't live in America where this battle is worst. I believe in some sort of God/Creator and believe that the God of the bible reflects the true nature of God in some way, and every argument i hear from and atheists sounds incredible ignorant to me.
Like there is something they don't get, like they can't wrap their heads around the subject, so they choose the easy way out and say there is no physical evidence, it's like they have blinded themself from the obvious vast amount of evidence there is. But then, when you look from the atheists point of view, i realize that's probably how they see the believers and that's why i believe it's all subjective. Why this battle is really pointless.
You can't change a person or what they have choosen to believe in and what not to believe in. So why even try? In most cases, people get upset, to have their faith challenged or angry at people they BELIEVE to be ignorant!! Do an atheists really have the authority to create negative emotions in another human being and make them doubt their faith, just because they don't follow same rule of thought as he/she do? Do a believer on the other hand, have any authority on what another human being should accept as evidence and what not to accept? And why do so many believers take authority on who and what God really is?
Atheist argue that terrible crimes have been committed in the name of religion and it's true. But atheism is just as dangerous. I live in a city where gang members keep shooting each other and more than often hits and kills innocent civilians because they believe they can get away with it, they don't think they ever will get punished, so they do horrible things. I have known some of these gang members personally and trust me, they do these things because they don't believe in any kind of God or spiritual world!!!
I'm not saying that atheism is wrong, just that the statement that religion kills people and atheism don't is a load of sh.. Power is and has always been the ultimate factor. But i agree, religious murdereres is far more dangerous than a man who don't believe in God but just like to kill people.
I have faith than none of the mythological Gods exist, i don't know with certainty but i don't believe they exist in other words, i have faith in that they don't exists. It's funny how atheists keep claiming that it's not some sort of faith when you don't believe God exists. I really can't see how it's not. In Danish, faith and believe is combined into one word "tror" is that a coincidence?
I'm just rambling here!!! Happy to live in one of the least religious countries though. Atheists and believers don't hate each other so much
You just couldn't help yourself little child!!! I know what my contradiction is, but it's not so serious to justify your childish remark, so please point out what you see as my contradiction, one that i maybe missed.
I don't argue for the sake of argument. I have a little challenge in making myself clear here, because my native language is not english and i'm still learning. And when you don't know all the fancy words in english i think my point could be misunderstood here. But please prove you're more intelligent than me, and argu with me in Danish, i took the time to learn your language.
And again with the hostile aproach. Here, my only hostile remark is the immature thing. In my above post i was never hostile only asking valid questions. But your hostile aproach just proved the validity of my question. Is atheists really that immature? Well, obviously not all are. But the question was mostly towards the ones who like to argue for their atheism. Their hostile aproach seems incredible immature to me, and when they are not hostile it doesn't seem as it's because of their maturity, but because they are afraid of other people thinking ill of them!!!
Well, again it's just my opinion, but please prove my point by being hostile and talk down to me. Maybe you're not even aware of it, maybe people who think they know better talk down to people subconsciously. Thankfully i'm mature enough to KNOW, that i don't know any better than you and vice versa.
Originally posted by cLOUDDEAD
How much time have you spent researching things like NDE's/OBE's? I'm guessing you dismiss such things without even having studied them. It takes faith to dismiss something that you know next to nothing about.
Originally posted by Blaine91555
Perhaps the end of this debate lies in finding a new word that means - I believe that no God exists, but I can't know it definitively because most of the makeup of the Universe and its history are unknown to me.
Perhaps an "Athnostic"?
Originally posted by sirnex
Hostile? Where is this perceived hostility? Are we killing those religious people because they refuse to listen to logic and reason?
Best argument? Let's try that again.
Ah, so it's immature when a religious person exclaims X scientific finding show's that Y religious belief is true when X shows Z to be true instead. Yes, it's entirely immature to correct someone when they're wrong. Let's go after teachers next for doing the same thing, it'll be great!
And there you have it. Contradiction number one.
So you do it anyways and bitch at others for doing what you do?
I think that's called a bigoted hypocrite. Contradiction number two.
Wait what? Contradiction number three.
Yes, so pointless that you just had to jump in yourself. Contradiction number four.
Contradiction number five. Does a religious person have authority to cause negative emotions in an Atheist?
Contradiction number six.
Have you asked the gang members their spiritual beliefs?
Contradiction number seven.
Which is it? is Atheism just as dangerous or less dangerous?
Originally posted by sirnex
Not so serious? Your all over the place in your previous reply!
You are arguing for the sake of arguing. You said this was all pointless, but decided to argue anyways. Contradiction number nine.
Good for you for learning English. I have no desire to learn your language as I won't be visiting your country nor will I be frequenting any forums that only use your language. Use of language is not a sign of intelligence.
Contradiction number ten. It's wrong for me to say something about your contradictions, but it's A-OK for you to bash Atheists.
I'm talking down to you? You come into the thread, talk about how pointless the discussion is, then make an argument talking down to Atheists. Contradiction number eleven
Either you just misunderstood alot of what i actually said or you twisted it to fit your agenda!!
Maybe hostile is not the right word!! But you do talk down to me!! That's my point.
Well, are you not fighting to give the best argument, you wouldn't answer unless you did. It was meant both for the atheist and fundamentalists.
Well, it's not immature to tell somebody they are wrong according to the theories of facts. But if you have any understanding of human psychology, you would know that's not what a religious person want to hear or want to listen to. The desire to tell them is immature in my mind. Also you don't have the authority to tell the person that they are wrong, when you really don't know! Neither does the believer!!
What's a contradiction here. I admit how wrong i am in doing the thing i does. I just can't help myself. Is it that you don't believe a non-religious person can believe in God, but not the God of the bible?
I'm sorry if you see me as bitching at others, i'm trying to explain the problem with my behavior and other athesits behaviors. Again not all are like this, but it seems like you are. At least on here.
And with the "bigoted hypocrite", you again talk down to me, with no authority to do so!!
Please explain what you see as a contradiction here. I'm saying that in my ears it sounds ignorant. I really don't think you understand where i'm coming from. I'm sorry if i can't explain myself properly here.
Well, i felt i needed to jump to point out that this battle serves no purpose, because no matter what, atheist are not going to change their belief unless, they have an NDE or something and either are religious people, unless they choose to so themself or something. I don't know, but i don't believe any discussion has ever changed the mind of another persons beliefs. Just fuel up anger on the side which loses the argument, or maybe not lose, but gives the weakest argument.
No of course not. Sorry if i did. Wasn't my intention. I'm not perfect either and not claiming to be, just trying to point the problem with the atheist/believer battle. But i can see i do a poor job in doing so.
Why is that quote a contradiction?
Of course, i wouldn't state that if i didn't. I've been one. Of course nobody can know with certainty what another person believes and don't. But everything to do with the "supernatural" was a subject to laugh about. They have the same argument you guys have for why a God didn't exist, right before they would go out an rob somebody!! Just kidding, of course not always right before
This was the contradiction i found myself!!
You do know that Denmark is one of the most educated countries in the world. I even saw that in a American documentary they listed Denmark as number 1, where the U.S was number 20 or something, can't really remember. I saw it on National Geographic or Discovery Channel.
Yeah i tend to do that.
You think your are a mind reader or what. I'm only arguing with you know cause you talked down to me. I do think it's pointless, but that doesn't mean i can't get caught up in it to whern someone talk down to me, instead of pointing out my flaws in a friendly way.
Point taken about the language thing. Although i have an extremly unintelligent friend, and he can't talk english. Actually, many of the more unintelligent friends i have don't know a word of english, they need subtitles when seing a english movie. But you're right that you not knowing my language is a sign of unintelligence, that was a cheap shot or what you call it.
Actually it's wrong for you and for me. I shouldn't bash atheists. But you got to admit, you kind of enjoy this discussion don't you? And i believe that enjoying talking down to other people is immature.
But what's the contradiction? I never said it was A-OK for me.
I thought i was talking down to both sides, not just atheists. But you're right, i do have a double-standard or what it's callled. But i was just trying to point out how hostile(for lack of knowledge of a better word) atheists can be, in a discussion that is really pointless and will most times only result in the other side leaving with negative emotions towards you. I know religious people do the same, but if you look through this thread, atheists are by far the worst when it comes to talking down to people.