Atheists and Dawkins Believe in God

reply to post by intrepid

Ok sparky. I'm an agnostic.

OK, to me all I see is that your telling me your an indecisive person in this regard.

I need PROOF that god exists.

As should anyone. If one makes the claim, they should be ready, able and willing to back that claim up. Agreed?

I also need proof that he DOESN'T exist.

You can not prove a negative. That's logic for ya!

It's about as intelligent as me demanding that you prove that two talking rocks DO NOT rule the entire universe.

Can you prove that to me without any culinary references that he doesn't exist?

The culinary references were brought up because you decided to evade and scoff at reasonable arguments rather than taking the time to give any actual rebuttals.

THAT'S the bottom line you all are missing.

No, the bottom line here is that archeological history shows all worshiped deities to be man made mythologies. A dismissal or outright refusal to acknowledge this does not make those deities any more real.

Our buddy Conclusion has proven this with great pride. He has taken one mythology and applied further attributes to this deity, creating a new man made deity in the process that he personally chooses to believe in. His deity is not the biblical God that he borrows from in which to create his deity.

That my friend, is the real logical bottom line here.

In response to page 1 ( I don't have time currently to read the entire thread) IMO free will completely negates the existence of a god. If anyone truly believes in an all knowing and all powerful creator then they can't possibly truly believe in free will. Free will is an athiests belief as far as I'm concerned. If a god were to know all and have power over all then that god would know every move and thought you would ever make in your life. Thus no real freedom to choose on our own. Life would be preordained to fall into place the way god sees it. However as an athiest I have free will BECAUSE their is no god to know my future. Also it is quite funny to me that we won't know if there is a god until we die. Have faith they say. Follow what we tell you (big rich religion) and when you die recieve happiness. Seems to me a very good ploy to get people to give money and power to a select few.

Originally posted by sirnex

Ok sparky. I'm an agnostic.

OK, to me all I see is that your telling me your an indecisive person in this regard.

Yup. Is that a bad thing? It means I need more than just my own ego when making a determination on this subject.

I also need proof that he DOESN'T exist.

You can not prove a negative. That's logic for ya!

THAT'S MY POINT!

It's about as intelligent as me demanding that you prove that two talking rocks DO NOT rule the entire universe.

If this is what passes for atheistic logic I'll stick to the real thing.

Can you prove that to me without any culinary references that he doesn't exist?

The culinary references were brought up because you decided to evade and scoff at reasonable arguments rather than taking the time to give any actual rebuttals.

I beg to differ. My points were clear. If you choose not to answer or give a bogus argument and won't listen to logic, don't pin that on me.

THAT'S the bottom line you all are missing.

No, the bottom line here is that archeological history shows all worshiped deities to be man made mythologies. A dismissal or outright refusal to acknowledge this does not make those deities any more real.

All worshiped deities? That includes Christ? And how did archeology determine he was man made?

Our buddy Conclusion has proven this with great pride. He has taken one mythology and applied further attributes to this deity, creating a new man made deity in the process that he personally chooses to believe in. His deity is not the biblical God that he borrows from in which to create his deity.

Really? What a guy. I've done the same. I call it the Sacred Pineapple.

Edit to add: Atheists ask for proof of god and then hide behind, "You can't prove a negative." when asked the same. Proof. Nice ploy, if one is willing to swallow it. I don't. Puts all the onus on the other person. C'mon, man up. Prove the negative or stop arguing.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by intrepid]

reply to post by intrepid

Yup. Is that a bad thing? It means I need more than just my own ego when making a determination on this subject.

Eh, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an outright bad thing. It just show's that your unable to weigh in the differences between something possible versus something impossible. Like asking for proof that there isn't a God.

THAT'S MY POINT!

YOUR POINT IS WHAT CAPS MAN!?

I clearly made mention more than once now. Are you talking about the MAN MADE MYTHOLOGIES HERE ON EARTH?

If that is your argument, then answers have been provided.

If this is what passes for atheistic logic I'll stick to the real thing.

Just because you don't like the example, doesn't make the example any less valid.

I beg to differ. My points were clear. If you choose not to answer or give a bogus argument and won't listen to logic, don't pin that on me.

What points?

Your question?

Followed by your answer?

Followed by your scoff?

Followed by your inability to actually refute?

All worshiped deities? That includes Christ? And how did archeology determine he was man made?

Jesus Christ... Are you for real? Yeshua was a man, not a deity.

Really? What a guy. I've done the same. I call it the Sacred Pineapple.

So your a liar then? You said you were agnostic and now your claiming to following the teachings of the Sacred Pineapple. Make up your mind or come up with a proper sarcastic retort.

Originally posted by intrepid
Is that supposed to be a serious retort?

Quite, although with a sardonic twist.

It's clear we've tried the intelligent approach to conveying to people that non-belief is not a matter of faith, but for some reason it's not sinking in. Claiming atheism is a matter of faith is like claiming that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Originally posted by intrepid
Edit to add: Atheists ask for proof of god and then hide behind, "You can't prove a negative." when asked the same. Proof. Nice ploy, if one is willing to swallow it. I don't. Puts all the onus on the other person. C'mon, man up. Prove the negative or stop arguing.

Is there proof that a God exists?


I'm not gonna go into all the Cliches and usual tactics.

There is no evidence or proof that a God exists.... that's a fact.
I don't think it gets any simpler than that.

You can prove something exists by using evidence... We know water exists, Oxygen.... many things exist because they are testable and there is some evidence for them.

The theory of God or a creator (and it is only a theory) is sadly lacking in any evidence.... the only thing one needs, apparently, is faith.... and then you know God is real.
If this were anything else.... we would say the person is deluded or crazy or whatever.... but we except that people believe in God..... It's puzzling.

I'm not here for a right or wrong or the typical crappy argument about how Atheists are soulless monkeys and Believers are Deluded morons.... It's all tired and boring now.

Agnostic is a fair position to take, And good on you.

But you cannot liken an Atheist and Believer in terms of their position and/or their belief/lack of belief..... They're not even remotely the same.
One believes, one doesn't..... and there is no "But it takes belief to not believe" because that argument is silly too.



[edit on 25/6/10 by blupblup]

reply to post by intrepid

Edit to add: Atheists ask for proof of god and then hide behind, "You can't prove a negative." when asked the same. Proof. Nice ploy, if one is willing to swallow it. I don't. Puts all the onus on the other person. C'mon, man up. Prove the negative or stop arguing.

WTF? Don't BS everyone here claiming to be a 'logical' person. You can not prove a negative, there is no way to do so. Burden of proof rests upon those making the claim. My lack of disbelief is not a CLAIM, it is a lack of belief as there is no evidence in which to believe in, period.

Your demand of prove the negative is no more intelligent than demanding that one proves that magical talking rocks DO NOT rule the universe or that giant fire belching cheesecakes do not exist. If you can not make that distinction, then you have no lick of understanding as to what logic is.

reply to post by Conclusion

Then after years of pondering the experience and testing the reality of said event all you can do is really know for yourself.

I've had "paranormal" experiences before, I don't mention them much because they are subjective and I wouldn't expect anyone to believe they happened. Even I, after years, do not believe they happened the way I remember them and attempt to come up with alternate explanations as to what I really experienced.

Human perception and memory aren't exactly the most reliable that's why science relies on peer review and verifiable objective evidence. Someone might have a vision or hear a voice that is really a hallucination, experiences like that can seem very real to the individual but does that make them a reality for everyone else?

What caused the volcanic activity to start.

Well I'm not a geologist but I'm pretty sure it involves magma from below the Earth's crust pushing up into the cracks within the crust.

Doesn't life seem to be an intelligent design?

No. The evidence does not suggest an intelligent designer. Of course to someone who was raised in a religious household or even in a country with significant religious influence it can seem that life cannot exist any other way than with a creator involved. There is a preconceived bias that all of this can't be an "accident".

Evolution through natural selection explains the bio-diversity we see. Life is also riddled with design flaws, our wisdom teeth are a prime example, our lower jaws aren't big enough to hold all those teeth and so they become distorted. If life is designed its been done poorly because there are many organisms with flaws, these flaws might not effect whether the organism can survive and pass on its genes but they do reflect that evolution, and not the hand of a magic sky man, has guided life's "design".

I always wondered why so many idiots spend so much time bashing something that "doesn't exist". But I guess I can't blame them, I HATE gnomes.. so so much!

Originally posted by mattias
I always wondered why so many idiots spend so much time bashing something that "doesn't exist". But I guess I can't blame them, I HATE gnomes.. so so much!

*yawn*

I wonder why so many idiots have to constantly tell me gnomes and other magical entities exist. But I guess I can't blame them, they just lack the conviction and intellect to separate fantasy from reality.

Originally posted by darkbake
Dawkins doesn't spend a single second of his book "The God Delusion" proving that God doesn't exist. Instead, he spends the entire piece of trash railing on a God that DAWKINS HIMSELF BELIEVES TO EXIST, or else he wouldn't bother to insult Him and his followers.

I try to avoid these types of discussions; however, I watched a documentary a few days ago called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed in which Dawkins admits to the possibility of a higher power. Anyhow, I didn't see this video posted on the 5 pages of this thread, so here it is for your viewing pleasure.

reply to post by darkbake


I see where you are headed, but its not about proving God exists or not. Atheism is a funny word and idea. There simply is no way for a person to knowingly say God does not exist. That is different. That makes Atheism yet another Faith. They have faith God does not exist. They can not know God does not exist.

Some will say they know, but they are not being intellectually honest. To know, one must have total proof.

Ok sparky. I'm an agnostic. I need PROOF that Unicorns exist. I also need proof that Unicorns DON'T exist. Can you prove that to me without any culinary references that Unicorns don't exist? THAT'S the bottom line you all are missing.

Can't prove Unicorns don't exist? THAT'S THE POINT, HAHA!!! You Unicorn-atheists are all idiots! I say the chance of the existence of Unicorns is about 50-50 and nobody can prove or disprove that so there!

: )

So tell me, how is the likelihood of your god's existence any different than my Unicorn?

If you think it's clever to be agnostic about something as important as the existence of an all seeing, all knowing and all powerful god, perhaps you haven't read "God Delusion" yet. If you have, you're clearly not agnostic but simply a stubborn half-assed Christian. Sorry : )

Or perhaps you don't buy the 50-50 thing and then we simply have a difference in opinion on what "agnostic" means.

reply to post by Blaine91555

I see where you are headed, but its not about proving God exists or not. Atheism is a funny word and idea. There simply is no way for a person to knowingly say God does not exist. That is different. That makes Atheism yet another Faith. They have faith God does not exist. They can not know God does not exist.

I believe you have a skewed understanding of Atheism. For starts, I don't know why we label ourselves, but we do, everyone does. Regardless of the silliness of the label, Atheism is lack of outright belief in all man made deities and has been a point of view ever since the creation of man made deities, at least as far as written history is concerned.

Atheism is not a system of faith as there is no belief involved in which to hold faith upon. When we're discussing God, we're discussing the man made biblical mythology. Archeological and recorded history can show us the origins of various mythologies. There is no faith involved with recorded history.

Some will say they know, but they are not being intellectually honest. To know, one must have total proof.

I swear it must be logic backwards day. YOU CAN NOT PROVE A NEGATIVE. Persons of faith make the claim that God is REAL and not a man made mythology, regardless of recorded history saying otherwise. In this light I agree one hundred freaking percent. To know, one must have total proof! They have zero proof and do nothing more than make an empty claim based upon whichever religious system they were brought up in or decided to follow or switched over to or personally made up, as in the case of our friend Conclusion.

reply to post by Blaine91555

Some will say they know, but they are not being intellectually honest

That's why most atheists only state a lack of belief not a lack of possibility. Most will tell you that there's no evidence and therefore no reason to believe in one but not that there definitely isn't a God at all.

Then again it still wouldn't take faith to make a declaration of there not being a God no more than it would to claim that fairies and magic aren't real either.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by darkbake

 

Atheism is a funny word and idea. There simply is no way for a person to knowingly say God does not exist. That is different. That makes Atheism yet another Faith. They have faith God does not exist. They can not know God does not exist.

That's true - no atheist knows for sure that god does NOT exist. Just as none of us know for sure or can positively claim that neither unicorns, Zeus, Santa Claus, tooth fairy nor any other fictional character don't exist. Even Richard Dawkins himself said something along the lines that he's not entirely 100% atheistic (in God Delusion - read it entirely if you haven't already, otherwise you're simply not prepared to argue with atheists), since it's impossible to prove a negative, as many have said in this thead already.

However, what atheists do claim, is that they KNOW it is vastly more likely that god DOESN'T exist.

This is a common misconception about the definition/meaning of the word "atheism". A lot of people think, as I myself used to think a few years ago when I used to proudly call myself "agnostic", that atheism means a "belief that god doesn't exist". But that's a complete misunderstanding of the word. Atheists don't "believe" anything. They definitely don't "believe" that your god doesn't exist.

They simply KNOW that they have seen NO evidence whatsoever that a god exists.

At least speaking for myself, and possibly for many atheists, I would LOVE to be proven wrong - to find out that there is a god. I hope if you're right, your god is mature enough to show himself to me and change my mind. But I'm afraid all evidence proves otherwise.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by codeblast]

Originally posted by codeblast
Can't prove Unicorns don't exist? THAT'S THE POINT, HAHA!!! You Unicorn-atheists are all idiots! I say the chance of the existence of Unicorns is about 50-50 and nobody can prove or disprove that so there!

Hopefully this is sarcasm. None the less, this allows me a chance to segue into another point: agnosticism is not a logical choice and doesn't render a 50/50 likelihood of unproven propositions.

Agnosticism is illogical because it relies on a refusal to form a certitude on the question of the existence of deities. Or unicorns. The actual likelihood of the existence of unicorns is immeasurably close to zero percent, hence, not a 50/50 chance. The likelihood of the existence of god is far less than that of unicorns since people have been actively searching for gods for millennia and have produced no evidence whatsoever. To NOT form a certitude on these odds is the least logical position one could take.

Originally posted by codeblast
Ok sparky. I'm an agnostic. I need PROOF that Unicorns exist. I also need proof that Unicorns DON'T exist. Can you prove that to me without any culinary references that Unicorns don't exist? THAT'S the bottom line you all are missing.

Can't prove Unicorns don't exist? THAT'S THE POINT, HAHA!!!

So you think childish, schoolyard rhetoric is a way to have a debate? How does that speak to your credibility?

Actually you seem to have proven the point you oppose. I can believe (have faith) that Unicorns don't exist, I can not know it for a fact, unless I were to be the first person to invent the idea and created the myth myself, if it is a myth.

I thought those four horned Rams you see in old paintings were a myth, until I ran into a pen full of them in a zoo. I was simply unaware they were real. Same with God. I can believe there is no God, but I can not know there is no God, without lying to myself.

I suppose it is possible some person exists, somewhere, who has full knowledge of everything and the Universe. In that case the person could say, it is a fact God does not exist. Otherwise?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by intrepid
Is that supposed to be a serious retort?

Quite, although with a sardonic twist.

It's clear we've tried the intelligent approach to conveying to people that non-belief is not a matter of faith, but for some reason it's not sinking in. Claiming atheism is a matter of faith is like claiming that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

How much time have you spent researching things like NDE's/OBE's? I'm guessing you dismiss such things without even having studied them. It takes faith to dismiss something that you know next to nothing about.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I don't even know why it upsets people to discuss the meanings of the words they use and when they are wrongly interpreted. It's deeper than that. Its not about whether a person knows if there is a God or not, its about a hatred of people who believe that is so strong that truth no longer is able to even be considered.

People can not admit they don't know for a fact, because they let hatred or strong negative emotions get in the way of logic. It occurs on both sides. Both sides become irrational.

Oddly enough, I find people actually immersed in the world of science in their careers, to be the most reasonable and logical to have a discussion with about these things. They tend to see the what they don't know as being over a horizon they are approaching and that they may one day top a hill and know. Some are irrational, but then they are likely the ones holding science back.