It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by JokerzReality
reply to post by sirnex
I'm a big fan of Derren Brown (If you know who that is) He is very good at showing peoplehow they can fool themselves to see something that isn't there because of comforting feelings, conformation bias, etc. I reconize that feeling when it pops up.
I've been into all of thata cold reading, and mentalism stuff, a lot, so i think i know what you mean when you indirctly accuse me of sensationalizing and pretending something from an feeling. But that isn't the case with what i'm talking about. It's not just comforting feelings, or some brain state which i misinterpreted in order to fool myself to think that it's more significant than it is.
It's something which have yet to be explained properly with human terms. And i don't pretend to be intelligent enough to offer an logical explanation for it, when nobody else can.
You are properly going to give an long reply, where i have to give an even longer, cause i can only right 4000 words in a post. We are not really going to agree in the big picture. There's almost nothing you can write which i can't give an counter-argument to, and vice verse. When it comes down to it, it's ALL subjectives believes, opinions, etc. I accept that you don't agree with that. Personally i see it as an extremly ignorant and narrow minded view, if one believes that everything he/she has put his faith in, be it science or something else, is the truth. Maybe it's the most reasonable explanation, which i will agree, that scince tends to give, but the theories are always subjective, no matter what you agree with.
But to the point. I just don't feel the desire to perticipate in this discussion anymore. And me not answering your point does not mean i can't give an counter-argument or that i agree with you. But that i can see a pattern here, and that mo matter i or you say, we could go on forever. And i've already invested to much energy and precious time on this debate, so i respectfully retire from this battle. Give the counter-argument you feel for, but if you ask any questions, you will not get an answer.
Thank's for the debate my friend. Have an nice one.
EDIT TO ADD: I just this video and i feel it is directly related to this topic:
www.youtube.com...
This just goes to show, that atheistic morality can be just as unkind, brainwashed and cruel as religious morality.
This was basicly what i was trying to explain with my "gang members" example and that, the argument against religions from an atheist point of view, where religous people are almost these unmoral and evil people, because all their moral is based on a higher authority and that atheist morality is oh so great, is hypocritic bs.
Religion just keeps stupid people from commiting crimes
Atheism is not a directly cause for violence. But the belief in some circles, that there is no god and no meaning to life, can be used to justify violence, i've experienced this far to many times myself.
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I don't feel the majority of true atheists are brainwashed, a common trait in an atheist is to think for themselves, to question, to ask for evidence, science, practical answers that we can utilise to improve our living here on earth. Accepting foolish evidence is not my vice, nor do i wish to ponder over it any longer, i feel it wastes time from other matters.
But yes, there are some idiots who just like being controversial, they like the idea of being against the masses, against the social norm and have little to no debate points/rebuttals on why they feel there is no god, or why they feel organised religion is wrong, they have no arguments, they just want to be against someone, that is not my prerogative or idealogy of what atheism is about. I am not that childish.
......you use gang members as an argument, when that is an impact of our governance, our greed for money, our economic system, it promotes theivery, people on the bread line don't have options, so they commit "crimes" against the goverment being "IMMORAL" in the eyes of the law, and it often leads to protection, guns, killings. Its a matter of enviroment and surroundings........
Do not blame atheism for this, blame our goverment, blame the monetary system, blame lack of resources, blame unequal distribution of wealth, blame poverty, blame the social idea that gun crime is acceptable - but don't blame atheism, that remark is irrelevant and in my opinion a very ignorant one. Atheists have no right and responsibility to preach a pefect morality model, just as i believe religious people do not have the right either. We are responsible for ourselves.
But what is an true atheist?
You know Derren Brown
He also states that his participants are carefully selected based on their suggestibility and responsiveness which is common in stage hypnosis. He believes that the presence of a television camera also increases responsiveness. Link
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
If everyone in the world had enough resources and it wasn't a dog eat dog world (e.g Mcdonalds vs Burgerking, Christians vs Muslims) then there would be a lot more kindness, sharing, communication, and peace and thus meaning to life. But sadly we live in a corrupt capitalist/communist world and there is little chance of change in the near future, if selling guns to a country that was generally peaceful will make a company money, they will opt for profit over ethics and responsibility, that is our society, do not blame atheism, thankyou.
Like you said, atheism has human irrationality just like irrational beliefs in Gods can make people do irrational things, I'm admitting that, but atheists, being thinkers, would think of consequence, empathy, or at least they should be and they would never claim to be more righteous or preach specific rules onto people, it should be obvious to us that its not a great feeling to kill another human being, we should no we wouldn't want things stolen from us, so why do it to other people. These are just basic concept you pick up as you live, and we can teach that without opressing anyones lives or freedom. We cannot pass inhumane actions onto some supreme Lord so they appear "morale"
I think it just keeps the stupid people from expressing themselves, keeps them in a life of fear, rather than freedom, keeps them servile, keeps you under control of their morale structure even if it gives people ideas such as love is wrong if its with a man , even if its love, even if you want to be with that person. Some religion makes people seriously think Ham is immoral but other meat is fine? how does that even make sense.
The it's high-time our society put some meaning to our lives, without having to believe in the unbelievable. I'd rather put more time into the the truth of our reality not outside it, or what could be outside it.
Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
Atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in any deities, that's it. Nothing more to it, nothing more to add to it, nothing to read into it.
He also states that his participants are carefully selected based on their suggestibility and responsiveness which is common in stage hypnosis. He believes that the presence of a television camera also increases responsiveness. Link
Tells me everything I need to know about this mentalist.
Then why even state such a thing as "true" atheism. What the point?
There it was highly unlikly that everone in the audience was in on it.
I've almost seen all of his shows, and the things he can do, proves that he has an higher understanding of human psychology than most people on earth has ever shown to have.
when you don't even want to seek out anything that had the potentiality to change your mind about something and instead find the first thing which could sound like a descredit of the guy
Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
Please re-read the quote again. He doesn't get people 'in on it', he uses people based on their suggestibility and responsiveness to his techniques..
He has a great understanding of peoples gullibility
when you don't even want to seek out anything that had the potentiality to change your mind about something and instead find the first thing which could sound like a descredit of the guy
He actually do sometimes, get people in on it. He even admitted to.
I don't care about the quote.
I have actual knowledge on the guy.
You read an unreliable wiki statement. However it is true, that he uses suggestibility and responsiveness to his techniques
he have made specific shows, where the participants had to go through an elimination process. But that doesn't explain when he chooses people randomly on the streets and guess everything about them.
Before suggesting i'm gullible, i suggest you watch his shows.
Yeah, also that!! But again, watch his shows, before making anymore ignorant remarks.
I KNOW he is cheating me
Could that mean that you would agree, that there is something to the paranormal, since you can only cheat people with high suggestibility and responsiveness?
Or do you claim that everybody expereincing the paranormal is higly suggestible?
And how do you know that you're not highly suggestible and responsive?
Originally posted by darkbake
This is a response I wrote to a recent thread that I thought deserved its own posting.
No one can prove that God doesn't exist. In fact, those that I have met who think that God doesn't exist still believe he does, they just don't like him. Try reading Dawkins. Dawkins doesn't spend a single second of his book "The God Delusion" proving that God doesn't exist. Instead, he spends the entire piece of trash railing on a God that DAWKINS HIMSELF BELIEVES TO EXIST, or else he wouldn't bother to insult Him and his followers.
Two years ago, I was having a crisis and wasn't sure if God existed or not or if I existed / had a soul or not. So do you know what happened?
I assumed that God did not exist, I assumed that free will did not exist. And THAT is when you realize they do, because things don't add up. It is called a proof by contradiction.
I even visualized it at the time. I was walking next to a dark lake, the thick, black water representing nihilism, no free will, no soul, no God. I was very afraid of this lake. And then I thought, "why am I just standing here?" So I jumped in. And do you know what happened? In the darkness, it became easier to see the light.
I saw specks of light all around me representing real, scientific and logical flaws with the idea that God and free will do not exist. I got in contact with Dr. Fred Alan Wolf, a quantum physicist, bought his books and those of a few other authors, and eventually wrote an independent study for my psychology major on a Quantum Theory of Mind that will probably never be taken seriously by the mainstream scientists for anywhere from 30 to 1000 years, when they finally get their heads out of their asses.
Until then, I am still collecting news articles and scientific data to back up my theories. I am even going to be running a few experiments here eventually, but for this exact moment I am lying low. The world seems to have become very hostile towards those who believe in the *spiritual.*
[edit on 24-6-2010 by darkbake]
I'm insanely mad at the ATS posting system right know. First i write, what i would consider an extremly good argument and post it, only to find out that my internet has lost it's connection and i have to write all over agin. Then when i'm almost done with my second attempt, i try to delete some errors, only to have it automaticly delete it all. I done trying now.
I will say this however. I've practised mentalism and cold reading a lot myself, i've read many of Derren Browns book, and other mentalists books. I KNOW that it reguires a great understanding of the human psychology, to even be remotely good at what Derren does. I've seen other mentalists such as Chris Angel. That's just basic old magic, not so much new in that. Watch his shows to see what i mean.
Derren does not just practise mentalism. He uses, as he himself state a combination of magic, a great understanding of human psychology, NLP, misdirection, hypnoses and cold reading. I have over 700 mentalism books, they are not even close to what Derren does, i can figure out almost anybodys tricks. I've used some of his technigues, i've have a couple of friends which would like to claim themself as amazing mentalist. They are good, no doubt. You can pick up the hottest supermodel with this, if that's your goal. I've read almost 500 books, on NLP, psychology, mentalism, social dynamiks. I KNOW it works, but to do what Derren does, you have to understand the human psychology very well. Now i'm not a mentalist, i'm interested in the subject, like i am in psychology and other human mind related subjects, but i'm not an Derren brown expert.
He places himself in situations sometimes, where it would be impossible to have everybody in on it, or else all of britain would be in on it also not all of his shows gives him the opportunity to pick and choose the ones he considers most gullible and suggestible, again watch his shows, all of them. they are quite good entertainment, to see what i mean. In some shows, he uses some clever editing, no doubt, others he admits to have deseved the audience. I'm not naiv regarding him, i know what's he is doing.
BTW, i forgot some words in a sentence "an as far as you know, unreliable wiki quote" This was the sentence i had in my mind when writing the last post, don't know why it didn't get there. You can accuse me of trying to safe face, which will be an irrelevant argument only to stronger yours and which eventually will lead us nowhere
Now what would that conformation bias be i wonder? Where is the naiv part? The only thing which needed to be confirmed as that you need an vast amount of knowledge on the human psych, in order to do what Derren does. Is that ignorant to state that? That was what i needed to be better, and wouldn't you know, when i read up on it, i was much better at fooling people.
Oh btw. James Randhi pick and chooses who he wants to test and who he don't want to test. He is hardly the most credible sceptic out there. Of course he don't want to loose his million bucks. I don't trust him for one second. Neither does i trust Derren Brown for that matter, but he come of as much more unbiased than Randhi does, so i find him a hell of a lot more credible than Randhi.
If there is some other things i failed to answer, please let me know.
P.S: Sometimes i can give the impression of meaning something when that's not actually my point. I see you like to pick up that a lot. Instead of having an meningful conversation, you try to pick my post apart. How is that constructive? Do all atheist behave like this. Awake, where at least constructive in his post. I could see havinf good argument with him, he even made me agree with some things which i hadn't considered. You on the other hand are only interested in picking my argument apart, instead of understanding.
I didn't care cause i aready knew.
Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
Please, let's not blame ATS for a problem caused by your internet provider. ATS has absolutely nothing to do with your service going down for any length of time.
Mentalism is mentalism, with or without the inclusion of stage magic. Please don't pretend that mentalism with stage magic is somehow different then mentalism without stage magic. You only look like you haven't got a clue as to what your on about.
Please, your so full of crap that anyone with half a flipping neuron can see right through your garbage. Your so good huh, then send me a picture of you with a hot supermodel.
Have you seen him live on the streets? Can you verify one hundred percent that what you saw on television is not set up at all?
Either way you state it, you still verified the accuracy of the source. Yes, you are indeed trying to save face, however pathetically stupid it is.
I was mad at the ATS posting system because it deleted everything i had wrote the second time, when i tried to delete a little sentence.
My english capabillities fail me yet again!! I'm not pretending anything. Mentalism IS stage magic. What Derren Brown however does, is a combination of mentalism with many other things.
Well, i don't blame you for not believing that a guy who visits ATS could hook at up with a supermodel. However, it's not so hard. You have to learn some PUA skills and some basic psychology. You don't have to be attractive at all, i'm just lucky i'm good looking although not so tall, as long as you can demonstrate social proof, higher value, confidence and social intelligence. There is a a lot of strategies into doing that that i won't go into here (Unless you want to hear them of course)
Give me your E-mail or something and i will send you dozens of pictures. However, what's the point, you could just as easily claim, that it isn't me on those pictures.
No of course not. But i tried some of the technigues he has released myself, and they work. No doubt about it.
I verified the accuracy of the source, but not the credibillity of wikipedia.
No matter what, you will claim i was trying to safe face, so you seem more intelligent and the one with the stronger argument.
I've made an error, i tried to point it out.
You could choose to either ridicule me pointing out the error like a little child would do to win more credibillity himself, or accept and forget it like an mature adult, am beggining to suspect that your actually not that old with wife and kids.
Just a suspicion, cause i have yet to see an mature adult talk down to people like you do. But then again, i'm not from America.
Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
Your a complete fool if you think your good at fooling people unless the people of Denmark are complete morons, which I would readily believe if you are an accurate representation of the level of intelligence of Denmark.
Can you verify that claim?
Hm, yes... I was wondering why the Denmark education system, being so high in ranking has failed you miserably.
Was it because you failed to pay attention or was it because you rebel against the secular Atheistic conformity of Denmark?
(HINT: Re-watch the video posted earlier )
Pick apart your post? You mean debating every point you raise? Apparently you don't know how a debate/argument works. Another point for Denmark huh?!
Knew what? That you rebel against Atheism because it's the most prominent belief system of your country in which you think Atheist rebel against religion because it's the most prominent belief system in my country you sorry sad little bigoted hypocrite?