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Atheists and Dawkins Believe in God

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posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 10:43 AM
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Originally posted by JokerzReality
reply to post by sirnex
 


I'm a big fan of Derren Brown (If you know who that is) He is very good at showing peoplehow they can fool themselves to see something that isn't there because of comforting feelings, conformation bias, etc. I reconize that feeling when it pops up.

I've been into all of thata cold reading, and mentalism stuff, a lot, so i think i know what you mean when you indirctly accuse me of sensationalizing and pretending something from an feeling. But that isn't the case with what i'm talking about. It's not just comforting feelings, or some brain state which i misinterpreted in order to fool myself to think that it's more significant than it is.

It's something which have yet to be explained properly with human terms. And i don't pretend to be intelligent enough to offer an logical explanation for it, when nobody else can.

You are properly going to give an long reply, where i have to give an even longer, cause i can only right 4000 words in a post. We are not really going to agree in the big picture. There's almost nothing you can write which i can't give an counter-argument to, and vice verse. When it comes down to it, it's ALL subjectives believes, opinions, etc. I accept that you don't agree with that. Personally i see it as an extremly ignorant and narrow minded view, if one believes that everything he/she has put his faith in, be it science or something else, is the truth. Maybe it's the most reasonable explanation, which i will agree, that scince tends to give, but the theories are always subjective, no matter what you agree with.

But to the point. I just don't feel the desire to perticipate in this discussion anymore. And me not answering your point does not mean i can't give an counter-argument or that i agree with you. But that i can see a pattern here, and that mo matter i or you say, we could go on forever. And i've already invested to much energy and precious time on this debate, so i respectfully retire from this battle. Give the counter-argument you feel for, but if you ask any questions, you will not get an answer.

Thank's for the debate my friend. Have an nice one.

EDIT TO ADD: I just this video and i feel it is directly related to this topic:

www.youtube.com...




posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


Great Video


This just goes to show, that atheistic morality can be just as unkind, brainwashed and cruel as religious morality. This was basicly what i was trying to explain with my "gang members" example and that, the argument against religions from an atheist point of view, where religous people are almost these unmoral and evil people, because all their moral is based on a higher authority and that atheist morality is oh so great, is hypocritic bs.

I'm all for being alpha and creating my own morality. Funny thing is, in my line of work, we teach people to be alpha men, and we are very careful not to install them with to many of our ideas and theories, because to be alpha to us, means to be the best, most karismatic and confident person you can be,, while knowing your own values (not values dictated by government, friends, religion or family, but YOUR morality) and being congruent with them and with your own personallity. Human kindness is basicly the only morality we teach, because without it, you can become a dangerous person with this new found karisma.

Religion just keeps stupid people from commiting crimes, like i KNOW for fact, that if my previous friends, which probably still are gang members, got to believe in a religion they wouldn't commit the crimes they do now. However they just might be stupid enough to be suicide bombers or killing gays. I know that's bad, but at least they don't rob, steal, attack random people on the streets, kill ordinary civilians for their money or rape, if they got to believe in some higher authority. Oh wait, religious people do some of these things aswell, what does that mean? That people don't believe in a higher authority enough to not do these crimes? That people really believe that this is what their higher authority really want's? Or that people are just egotistical beings which will use whatever they believe in to justify their actions, because they don't wan't to look within themselves and face their own personal issues?

Atheism is not a directly cause for violence. But the belief in some circles, that there is no god and no meaning to life, can be used to justify violence, i've experienced this far to many times myself.

I don't see how this relates to the post you quoted though.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by JokerzReality


This just goes to show, that atheistic morality can be just as unkind, brainwashed and cruel as religious morality.


I don't feel the majority of true atheists are brainwashed, a common trait in an atheist is to think for themselves, to question, to ask for evidence, science, practical answers that we can utilise to improve our living here on earth. Accepting foolish evidence is not my vice, nor do i wish to ponder over it any longer, i feel it wastes time from other matters.

But yes, there are some idiots who just like being controversial, they like the idea of being against the masses, against the social norm and have little to no debate points/rebuttals on why they feel there is no god, or why they feel organised religion is wrong, they have no arguments, they just want to be against someone, that is not my prerogative or idealogy of what atheism is about. I am not that childish.


This was basicly what i was trying to explain with my "gang members" example and that, the argument against religions from an atheist point of view, where religous people are almost these unmoral and evil people, because all their moral is based on a higher authority and that atheist morality is oh so great, is hypocritic bs.


......you use gang members as an argument, when that is an impact of our governance, our greed for money, our economic system, it promotes theivery, people on the bread line don't have options, so they commit "crimes" against the goverment being "IMMORAL" in the eyes of the law, and it often leads to protection, guns, killings. Its a matter of enviroment and surroundings........

Do not blame atheism for this, blame our goverment, blame the monetary system, blame lack of resources, blame unequal distribution of wealth, blame poverty, blame the social idea that gun crime is acceptable - but don't blame atheism, that remark is irrelevant and in my opinion a very ignorant one. Atheists have no right and responsibility to preach a pefect morality model, just as i believe religious people do not have the right either. We are responsible for ourselves.

If everyone in the world had enough resources and it wasn't a dog eat dog world (e.g Mcdonalds vs Burgerking, Christians vs Muslims) then there would be a lot more kindness, sharing, communication, and peace and thus meaning to life. But sadly we live in a corrupt capitalist/communist world and there is little chance of change in the near future, if selling guns to a country that was generally peaceful will make a company money, they will opt for profit over ethics and responsibility, that is our society, do not blame atheism, thankyou.

Like you said, atheism has human irrationality just like irrational beliefs in Gods can make people do irrational things, I'm admitting that, but atheists, being thinkers, would think of consequence, empathy, or at least they should be and they would never claim to be more righteous or preach specific rules onto people, it should be obvious to us that its not a great feeling to kill another human being, we should no we wouldn't want things stolen from us, so why do it to other people. These are just basic concept you pick up as you live, and we can teach that without opressing anyones lives or freedom. We cannot pass inhumane actions onto some supreme Lord so they appear "morale"

Atheism is not about discussing morals, its about discussing how a religion could possibly come to a universal morality model that is "rightious" - "perfect" when like the amazing atheist has said morality is subjective, and only has meaning in a heirarchical social structure where there are social norms and rules.

So yes, we are not hippocrits at all, we are saying there are other ways to logically come to a decision in actions affecting other people without basing it on an out of date book, full of opressive rules, and unfalsifiable fear of a cosmological dictator. Theory? Evidence? Science? no sorry we havn't got it yet, so until that day atheists will remain with the same viewpoint.


Religion just keeps stupid people from commiting crimes


I think it just keeps the stupid people from expressing themselves, keeps them in a life of fear, rather than freedom, keeps them servile, keeps you under control of their morale structure even if it gives people ideas such as love is wrong if its with a man , even if its love, even if you want to be with that person. Some religion makes people seriously think Ham is immoral but other meat is fine? how does that even make sense.


Atheism is not a directly cause for violence. But the belief in some circles, that there is no god and no meaning to life, can be used to justify violence, i've experienced this far to many times myself.


The it's high-time our society put some meaning to our lives, without having to believe in the unbelievable. I'd rather put more time into the the truth of our reality not outside it, or what could be outside it.

Peace




[edit on 1/7/10 by awake_and_aware]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 02:23 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I don't feel the majority of true atheists are brainwashed, a common trait in an atheist is to think for themselves, to question, to ask for evidence, science, practical answers that we can utilise to improve our living here on earth. Accepting foolish evidence is not my vice, nor do i wish to ponder over it any longer, i feel it wastes time from other matters.


I wouldn't call it a common trait in athiests, maybe with your friends it is, but it's far from common in all atheists. In a sense we are all brainwashed, almost everybody have picked and choosed from existing theories, ideas, morallities, etc. What is foolish evidence? How are you sure that it really is that foolish, and it's just not your subconscious not accepting it as evidence?

You know Derren Brown, the mentalist guy i mentioned, even admits, that as an atheistic sceptic he (and everybody else, according to him) subconsciously overlooks evidence that could contradict his/theirs belief(s), whether your an atheist, christian, muslim, etc. Even lack in belief is also a subconscious belief according to him. Look him up, watch his shows.



But yes, there are some idiots who just like being controversial, they like the idea of being against the masses, against the social norm and have little to no debate points/rebuttals on why they feel there is no god, or why they feel organised religion is wrong, they have no arguments, they just want to be against someone, that is not my prerogative or idealogy of what atheism is about. I am not that childish.


Well actually, being against religion where i'm from, is far from being against the masses. Religious people make up about 10-20 % of our population. Being against government law however is against the masses.


......you use gang members as an argument, when that is an impact of our governance, our greed for money, our economic system, it promotes theivery, people on the bread line don't have options, so they commit "crimes" against the goverment being "IMMORAL" in the eyes of the law, and it often leads to protection, guns, killings. Its a matter of enviroment and surroundings........


When you're right you're right. It is because of the way our system works. But that's not to say that they couldn't use a little false higher authority to lower the crimes significantly. Oh and sorry to say, but in Denmark people do have options unfortuantly, we have a great wellfare system. We don't really have homeless here unless the choose to be or are illegal immigrants. Criminals here choose to be, because they think it's cool, it gains respect and there are far more money in it, than earning an honest living. They maybe, as you say, rebellious against government, although it's not really the government they hate here, more the police. But they got plenty of options, government pays for our education and your every need.


Do not blame atheism for this, blame our goverment, blame the monetary system, blame lack of resources, blame unequal distribution of wealth, blame poverty, blame the social idea that gun crime is acceptable - but don't blame atheism, that remark is irrelevant and in my opinion a very ignorant one. Atheists have no right and responsibility to preach a pefect morality model, just as i believe religious people do not have the right either. We are responsible for ourselves.


I like atheism. If it wasn't for my experience i would be an atheist. Atheism is far more spiritual than religions sometimes, i think. I don't blame atheism, like i don't blame religion, i blame people, and people's desire to manipulate with religious or atheistic tools in order to justify their cruelness. BTW, gun crime is socially unacceptable in Denmark, it's higly illegal to even own a gun in Denmark, and very hard to get a license and poverty is not really an issue here. If you get broke, the government will help you out

[edit on 1-7-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


Gave you a star.

Very well thought out and presented reply. It's a shame that too often Atheism is painted as in immoral belief structure when it has nothing to do or say about morality.

Folks, Atheism is a lack of belief in any deities whatsoever. Atheists do not kill thinking about how great no god(s) exist to punish us.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


Thank you. I agree with you whole-heartedly, and excellent quote from Nikola Tesla on your sig! - I havn't heard that before. What a great mind


peace



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by JokerzReality
 



But what is an true atheist?


Atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in any deities, that's it. Nothing more to it, nothing more to add to it, nothing to read into it.


You know Derren Brown



He also states that his participants are carefully selected based on their suggestibility and responsiveness which is common in stage hypnosis. He believes that the presence of a television camera also increases responsiveness. Link


Tells me everything I need to know about this mentalist.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


Tesla was certainly one of the greatest minds of our time, if not THE greatest. It's a shame that the US Government has classified much of his work. If you ever get the time, look up his dynamic gravity theory, it's very interesting and considering the amount of ideas the man had that worked, I'm willing to bet his theory on gravity is pretty close to being more correct than Einstein. He also didn't like Einstein and thought he was basically a fool. (not his words)



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
If everyone in the world had enough resources and it wasn't a dog eat dog world (e.g Mcdonalds vs Burgerking, Christians vs Muslims) then there would be a lot more kindness, sharing, communication, and peace and thus meaning to life. But sadly we live in a corrupt capitalist/communist world and there is little chance of change in the near future, if selling guns to a country that was generally peaceful will make a company money, they will opt for profit over ethics and responsibility, that is our society, do not blame atheism, thankyou.


You forgot "Christans vs Atheists". When i think of it. No other religion, that i know of, really has a bigger problem with atheism than christianity has. But then again, i live in an almost non-religious country, so i'm not so familiar with the battles. But you're right, it's not atheism that is to blame, like i don't think religion is to blame, but our society in general.



Like you said, atheism has human irrationality just like irrational beliefs in Gods can make people do irrational things, I'm admitting that, but atheists, being thinkers, would think of consequence, empathy, or at least they should be and they would never claim to be more righteous or preach specific rules onto people, it should be obvious to us that its not a great feeling to kill another human being, we should no we wouldn't want things stolen from us, so why do it to other people. These are just basic concept you pick up as you live, and we can teach that without opressing anyones lives or freedom. We cannot pass inhumane actions onto some supreme Lord so they appear "morale"


Actually, the majority of atheist that i know of is far from thinkers. They don't believe that god is fiction because they can't find any evidence for it, cause they don't even look for the evidence to the contrary. They believe that god is fiction, because that's what the majority here does. I would call myself a thinker, i question everything, i like knowledge and research alot, i'm however more interested in psychology because of my trade than any science, and the majority of our atheistic population here just don't care about anything, they follow the norm.

Maybe in America atheist are considered thinkers, because the norm there is religious belief. Since atheism here is so normal (don't think i actually know anybody else than me who believes in god), people here are almost atheist per automatic. I don't know if gang members would be more kind if they believed in some higher authority, however, when you think of life this way "You live only to die, there is no meaning to life, other than to have absolutte power", i don't think it's any wonder that they don't give a crap about anyone or anything but themselves.



I think it just keeps the stupid people from expressing themselves, keeps them in a life of fear, rather than freedom, keeps them servile, keeps you under control of their morale structure even if it gives people ideas such as love is wrong if its with a man , even if its love, even if you want to be with that person. Some religion makes people seriously think Ham is immoral but other meat is fine? how does that even make sense.


Yeah, also that!!



The it's high-time our society put some meaning to our lives, without having to believe in the unbelievable. I'd rather put more time into the the truth of our reality not outside it, or what could be outside it.


You're right. I actually prefer to not believe in the afterlife and not believe in God, because by not believing in any, it becomes more important to not wasting any minut of your life and get the best out of every moment, so you can be proud of your life when you die. I have a hard time not believing in God however because of my expereince, and haven't found any logical explanation for that yet

[edit on 1-7-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 04:09 PM
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OMG!! An atheistic conspiracy



Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
 

Atheism is nothing but a lack of belief in any deities, that's it. Nothing more to it, nothing more to add to it, nothing to read into it.


Then why even state such a thing as "true" atheism. What the point?




He also states that his participants are carefully selected based on their suggestibility and responsiveness which is common in stage hypnosis. He believes that the presence of a television camera also increases responsiveness. Link


Tells me everything I need to know about this mentalist.


Actually, it tells you nothing of the guy. That is old news. I would recommend you to see his show "Messiah" and "Evening of wonder". In these programs it was highly unlikly that everone in the audience was in on it or that anyone were carefully selected based on their suggestibility and responsiveness. And in messiah, he travels to America to expose how foolish some supernatural and religious beliefs can be. Ask any british guy on this site about Derren Brown, and you will find out that not only is he a far better and honest spokesman of atheism and scepticism, than Dawkins or James Randhi, but also that you would be foolish to dissmiss him because of a couple of shows, where he even admitted to doing so before the show started.

I've almost seen all of his shows, and the things he can do, proves that he has an higher understanding of human psychology than most people on earth has ever shown to have. Dawkins even interviewed him on cold reading in his documentary (Can't remember it's name). His new show, is about showing how paranormal events, can be tricks of the mind or something. He is honest about his scepticm and atheism. He KNOWS, that everything we believe in and don't believe in is due to our biased subconscious. It's part of our personallity. What we don't believe in is just as much a part of our conditioning as what we do believe in. Watch him, before making biased judgement.

How can you complain about religious people being ignorant and making ignorant statements and that they afraid of knowledge which could destroy their belief system, when you don't even want to seek out anything that had the potentiality to change your mind about something and instead find the first thing which could sound like a descredit of the guy, without even knowing the back story, in order to get your conformation bias (I don't know if it's a thing you can get, but you know what i mean, hopefully)

[edit on 1-7-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by JokerzReality
 



Then why even state such a thing as "true" atheism. What the point?


That's what Atheism is, and nothing else. I would tell you to look it up, but you show great disdain for dictionaries as sources of definitions for words.


There it was highly unlikly that everone in the audience was in on it.


Please re-read the quote again. He doesn't get people 'in on it', he uses people based on their suggestibility and responsiveness to his techniques.


I've almost seen all of his shows, and the things he can do, proves that he has an higher understanding of human psychology than most people on earth has ever shown to have.


He has a great understanding of peoples gullibility.


when you don't even want to seek out anything that had the potentiality to change your mind about something and instead find the first thing which could sound like a descredit of the guy


Far be it for me to say, but the man is a mentalist. You talk all this BS about confirmation bias whilst being guilty of it yourself. Your over looking certain facts to this story here. HE IS A MENTALIST. HE ADMITS TO PURPOSELY USES PEOPLE WHO ARE HIGHLY SUGGESTIBLE. That literally tells you everything you need to know. Now use your head for a minute (I promise it won't hurt), how well do you think his act would work on people who are not easily suggestible or responsive to the techniques he employs?



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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This entire thread is way too long to read, however I would like to point out some ignorant ideas that some people have. The whole "only religious people are brainwashed" or "only religious people have a tendency to commit random acts of violence" or "religion causes wars" , etc.... is all BS.

This is no different then a black person, stating matter-of-factly that black people cannot be racist.

Of course you can see the stupid comparison here, but you get my point.

Believe what you wanna believe I don't care what YOUR scientists say



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
 


Please re-read the quote again. He doesn't get people 'in on it', he uses people based on their suggestibility and responsiveness to his techniques..


He actually do sometimes, get people in on it. He even admitted to. I don't care about the quote. I have actual knowledge on the guy. You read an unreliable wiki statement. However it is true, that he uses suggestibility and responsiveness to his techniques, he have made specific shows, where the participants had to go through an elimination process. But that doesn't explain when he chooses people randomly on the streets and guess everything about them. Before suggesting i'm gullible, i suggest you watch his shows.


He has a great understanding of peoples gullibility


Yeah, also that!! But again, watch his shows, before making anymore ignorant remarks.


when you don't even want to seek out anything that had the potentiality to change your mind about something and instead find the first thing which could sound like a descredit of the guy


Far be it for me to say, but the man is a mentalist. You talk all this BS about confirmation bias whilst being guilty of it yourself. Your over looking certain facts to this story here. HE IS A MENTALIST. HE ADMITS TO PURPOSELY USES PEOPLE WHO ARE HIGHLY SUGGESTIBLE. That literally tells you everything you need to know. Now use your head for a minute (I promise it won't hurt), how well do you think his act would work on people who are not easily suggestible or responsive to the techniques he employs?

I'm not overlooking anything. I KNOW he is cheating me and the television audience, he admits to use people highly suggestible in specific shows, that does not mean he use them when making LIVE shows for example, which "evening of wonder" was, With an audience who he hasn't choose, but had payd to see him work his magic. However, i would agree that many of his not live shows, were heavily edited to make it seem like he was always correct.

But okay, if that tells you everything about the guy. Could that mean that you would agree, that there is something to the paranormal, since you can only cheat people with high suggestibility and responsiveness? Or do you claim that everybody expereincing the paranormal is higly suggestible? And how do you know that you're not highly suggestible and responsive? Most of his participants are atheist and sceptics you know, because many believers won't support him cause it seems like he has an unconfirmed mission to debunk everything considered suprnatural, even though he is extremly honest about how many flaws his on belief have.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by JokerzReality
 



He actually do sometimes, get people in on it. He even admitted to.


Interesting, that explains even more about it all. However, I'm sure your 'confirmation bias' will over look such an important thing.


I don't care about the quote.


Thank you for admitting that you don't care. This tells us even more about your 'confirmation bias'.


I have actual knowledge on the guy.


Watching his shows and reading about him is not equal to having 'actual knowledge' even if something like "actual knowledge" existed.


You read an unreliable wiki statement. However it is true, that he uses suggestibility and responsiveness to his techniques


Unreliable and yet amazingly accurate. I would hazard a guess that it's your 'confirmation bias' at work when you claim it's unreliable and your forgetfulness in saying it is unreliable when you confirm the accuracy of the supposed unreliable source.


he have made specific shows, where the participants had to go through an elimination process. But that doesn't explain when he chooses people randomly on the streets and guess everything about them.


Are you well versed in the techniques he applies to his shows? Do you know him personally or how his street shows work in full?


Before suggesting i'm gullible, i suggest you watch his shows.


There is another mentalist named Chris Angel who does similar work. If your interested in mentalist performances, then I would suggest learning more about how it works. It appears to be more than it is because it is performed that way and it plays off of our gullibility. If it did not work that way, then we wouldn't have mentalists.


Yeah, also that!! But again, watch his shows, before making anymore ignorant remarks.


You sling around the ignorant label quiet often whilst being both ignorant and naive yourself.


I KNOW he is cheating me


Yet, your confirmation bias could care less.


Could that mean that you would agree, that there is something to the paranormal, since you can only cheat people with high suggestibility and responsiveness?


No, and you would have to be a complete moron to even suggest that someone purposefully messing with your head gives any evidence to the paranormal.


Or do you claim that everybody expereincing the paranormal is higly suggestible?


A one million dollar prize has been offered for many years by the James Randi Foundation for any irrefutable proof for the paranormal. It has never been claimed by anyone that deals with the paranormal.


And how do you know that you're not highly suggestible and responsive?


I know I am because I fall for the same tricks when I see them here on television. This is why stage magic WORKS!



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 07:10 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


I'm insanely mad at the ATS posting system right know. First i write, what i would consider an extremly good argument and post it, only to find out that my internet has lost it's connection and i have to write all over agin. Then when i'm almost done with my second attempt, i try to delete some errors, only to have it automaticly delete it all. I done trying now.

I will say this however. I've practised mentalism and cold reading a lot myself, i've read many of Derren Browns book, and other mentalists books. I KNOW that it reguires a great understanding of the human psychology, to even be remotely good at what Derren does. I've seen other mentalists such as Chris Angel. That's just basic old magic, not so much new in that. Watch his shows to see what i mean.

Derren does not just practise mentalism. He uses, as he himself state a combination of magic, a great understanding of human psychology, NLP, misdirection, hypnoses and cold reading. I have over 700 mentalism books, they are not even close to what Derren does, i can figure out almost anybodys tricks. I've used some of his technigues, i've have a couple of friends which would like to claim themself as amazing mentalist. They are good, no doubt. You can pick up the hottest supermodel with this, if that's your goal. I've read almost 500 books, on NLP, psychology, mentalism, social dynamiks. I KNOW it works, but to do what Derren does, you have to understand the human psychology very well. Now i'm not a mentalist, i'm interested in the subject, like i am in psychology and other human mind related subjects, but i'm not an Derren brown expert.

He places himself in situations sometimes, where it would be impossible to have everybody in on it, or else all of britain would be in on it also not all of his shows gives him the opportunity to pick and choose the ones he considers most gullible and suggestible, again watch his shows, all of them. they are quite good entertainment, to see what i mean. In some shows, he uses some clever editing, no doubt, others he admits to have deseved the audience. I'm not naiv regarding him, i know what's he is doing.

BTW, i forgot some words in a sentence "an as far as you know, unreliable wiki quote" This was the sentence i had in my mind when writing the last post, don't know why it didn't get there. You can accuse me of trying to safe face, which will be an irrelevant argument only to stronger yours and which eventually will lead us nowhere

Now what would that conformation bias be i wonder? Where is the naiv part? The only thing which needed to be confirmed as that you need an vast amount of knowledge on the human psych, in order to do what Derren does. Is that ignorant to state that? That was what i needed to be better, and wouldn't you know, when i read up on it, i was much better at fooling people.

Oh btw. James Randhi pick and chooses who he wants to test and who he don't want to test. He is hardly the most credible sceptic out there. Of course he don't want to loose his million bucks. I don't trust him for one second. Neither does i trust Derren Brown for that matter, but he come of as much more unbiased than Randhi does, so i find him a hell of a lot more credible than Randhi.

If there is some other things i failed to answer, please let me know.

P.S: Sometimes i can give the impression of meaning something when that's not actually my point. I see you like to pick up that a lot. Instead of having an meningful conversation, you try to pick my post apart. How is that constructive? Do all atheist behave like this. Awake, where at least constructive in his post. I could see havinf good argument with him, he even made me agree with some things which i hadn't considered. You on the other hand are only interested in picking my argument apart, instead of understanding.

I didn't care cause i aready knew.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by darkbake
This is a response I wrote to a recent thread that I thought deserved its own posting.

No one can prove that God doesn't exist. In fact, those that I have met who think that God doesn't exist still believe he does, they just don't like him. Try reading Dawkins. Dawkins doesn't spend a single second of his book "The God Delusion" proving that God doesn't exist. Instead, he spends the entire piece of trash railing on a God that DAWKINS HIMSELF BELIEVES TO EXIST, or else he wouldn't bother to insult Him and his followers.

Two years ago, I was having a crisis and wasn't sure if God existed or not or if I existed / had a soul or not. So do you know what happened?

I assumed that God did not exist, I assumed that free will did not exist. And THAT is when you realize they do, because things don't add up. It is called a proof by contradiction.

I even visualized it at the time. I was walking next to a dark lake, the thick, black water representing nihilism, no free will, no soul, no God. I was very afraid of this lake. And then I thought, "why am I just standing here?" So I jumped in. And do you know what happened? In the darkness, it became easier to see the light.

I saw specks of light all around me representing real, scientific and logical flaws with the idea that God and free will do not exist. I got in contact with Dr. Fred Alan Wolf, a quantum physicist, bought his books and those of a few other authors, and eventually wrote an independent study for my psychology major on a Quantum Theory of Mind that will probably never be taken seriously by the mainstream scientists for anywhere from 30 to 1000 years, when they finally get their heads out of their asses.

Until then, I am still collecting news articles and scientific data to back up my theories. I am even going to be running a few experiments here eventually, but for this exact moment I am lying low. The world seems to have become very hostile towards those who believe in the *spiritual.*

[edit on 24-6-2010 by darkbake]


Have you read Dawkins book?

It doesnt sound like it.

Dawkins does not believe in a god.

He speaks out against religion because he's not happy with the way it negatively influences society- he feels a sense of duty [as an evolutionary biologist] to try and bring our world into the 21st century.
That religious folk find him insulting is not his problem.

The lake and the specks of light followed by some kind of knowing sounds like psychosis to me.



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 08:26 PM
link   
reply to post by JokerzReality
 



I'm insanely mad at the ATS posting system right know. First i write, what i would consider an extremly good argument and post it, only to find out that my internet has lost it's connection and i have to write all over agin. Then when i'm almost done with my second attempt, i try to delete some errors, only to have it automaticly delete it all. I done trying now.


Please, let's not blame ATS for a problem caused by your internet provider. ATS has absolutely nothing to do with your service going down for any length of time.



I will say this however. I've practised mentalism and cold reading a lot myself, i've read many of Derren Browns book, and other mentalists books. I KNOW that it reguires a great understanding of the human psychology, to even be remotely good at what Derren does. I've seen other mentalists such as Chris Angel. That's just basic old magic, not so much new in that. Watch his shows to see what i mean.


Mentalism is mentalism, with or without the inclusion of stage magic. Please don't pretend that mentalism with stage magic is somehow different then mentalism without stage magic. You only look like you haven't got a clue as to what your on about.



Derren does not just practise mentalism. He uses, as he himself state a combination of magic, a great understanding of human psychology, NLP, misdirection, hypnoses and cold reading. I have over 700 mentalism books, they are not even close to what Derren does, i can figure out almost anybodys tricks. I've used some of his technigues, i've have a couple of friends which would like to claim themself as amazing mentalist. They are good, no doubt. You can pick up the hottest supermodel with this, if that's your goal. I've read almost 500 books, on NLP, psychology, mentalism, social dynamiks. I KNOW it works, but to do what Derren does, you have to understand the human psychology very well. Now i'm not a mentalist, i'm interested in the subject, like i am in psychology and other human mind related subjects, but i'm not an Derren brown expert.


Please, your so full of crap that anyone with half a flipping neuron can see right through your garbage. Your so good huh, then send me a picture of you with a hot supermodel.



He places himself in situations sometimes, where it would be impossible to have everybody in on it, or else all of britain would be in on it also not all of his shows gives him the opportunity to pick and choose the ones he considers most gullible and suggestible, again watch his shows, all of them. they are quite good entertainment, to see what i mean. In some shows, he uses some clever editing, no doubt, others he admits to have deseved the audience. I'm not naiv regarding him, i know what's he is doing.


Have you seen him live on the streets? Can you verify one hundred percent that what you saw on television is not set up at all?


BTW, i forgot some words in a sentence "an as far as you know, unreliable wiki quote" This was the sentence i had in my mind when writing the last post, don't know why it didn't get there. You can accuse me of trying to safe face, which will be an irrelevant argument only to stronger yours and which eventually will lead us nowhere


Either way you state it, you still verified the accuracy of the source. Yes, you are indeed trying to save face, however pathetically stupid it is.


Now what would that conformation bias be i wonder? Where is the naiv part? The only thing which needed to be confirmed as that you need an vast amount of knowledge on the human psych, in order to do what Derren does. Is that ignorant to state that? That was what i needed to be better, and wouldn't you know, when i read up on it, i was much better at fooling people.


Your a complete fool if you think your good at fooling people unless the people of Denmark are complete morons, which I would readily believe if you are an accurate representation of the level of intelligence of Denmark.



Oh btw. James Randhi pick and chooses who he wants to test and who he don't want to test. He is hardly the most credible sceptic out there. Of course he don't want to loose his million bucks. I don't trust him for one second. Neither does i trust Derren Brown for that matter, but he come of as much more unbiased than Randhi does, so i find him a hell of a lot more credible than Randhi.


Can you verify that claim?



If there is some other things i failed to answer, please let me know.


Hm, yes... I was wondering why the Denmark education system, being so high in ranking has failed you miserably.


Was it because you failed to pay attention or was it because you rebel against the secular Atheistic conformity of Denmark?


(HINT: Re-watch the video posted earlier
)


P.S: Sometimes i can give the impression of meaning something when that's not actually my point. I see you like to pick up that a lot. Instead of having an meningful conversation, you try to pick my post apart. How is that constructive? Do all atheist behave like this. Awake, where at least constructive in his post. I could see havinf good argument with him, he even made me agree with some things which i hadn't considered. You on the other hand are only interested in picking my argument apart, instead of understanding.


Pick apart your post? You mean debating every point you raise? Apparently you don't know how a debate/argument works. Another point for Denmark huh?!



I didn't care cause i aready knew.


Knew what? That you rebel against Atheism because it's the most prominent belief system of your country in which you think Atheist rebel against religion because it's the most prominent belief system in my country you sorry sad little bigoted hypocrite?



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 09:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
 

Please, let's not blame ATS for a problem caused by your internet provider. ATS has absolutely nothing to do with your service going down for any length of time.


I was mad at the ATS posting system because it deleted everything i had wrote the second time, when i tried to delete a little sentence.


Mentalism is mentalism, with or without the inclusion of stage magic. Please don't pretend that mentalism with stage magic is somehow different then mentalism without stage magic. You only look like you haven't got a clue as to what your on about.


My english capabillities fail me yet again!! I'm not pretending anything. Mentalism IS stage magic. What Derren Brown however does, is a combination of mentalism with many other things.


Please, your so full of crap that anyone with half a flipping neuron can see right through your garbage. Your so good huh, then send me a picture of you with a hot supermodel.


Well, i don't blame you for not believing that a guy who visits ATS could hook at up with a supermodel. However, it's not so hard. You have to learn some PUA skills and some basic psychology. You don't have to be attractive at all, i'm just lucky i'm good looking although not so tall, as long as you can demonstrate social proof, higher value, confidence and social intelligence. There is a a lot of strategies into doing that that i won't go into here (Unless you want to hear them of course)

Give me your E-mail or something and i will send you dozens of pictures. However, what's the point, you could just as easily claim, that it isn't me on those pictures.


Have you seen him live on the streets? Can you verify one hundred percent that what you saw on television is not set up at all?


No of course not. But i tried some of the technigues he has released myself, and they work. No doubt about it.


Either way you state it, you still verified the accuracy of the source. Yes, you are indeed trying to save face, however pathetically stupid it is.


I verified the accuracy of the source, but not the credibillity of wikipedia. No matter what, you will claim i was trying to safe face, so you seem more intelligent and the one with the stronger argument. I've made an error, i tried to point it out. You could choose to either ridicule me pointing out the error like a little child would do to win more credibillity himself, or accept and forget it like an mature adult, am beggining to suspect that your actually not that old with wife and kids. Just a suspicion, cause i have yet to see an mature adult talk down to people like you do. But then again, i'm not from America.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 09:19 PM
link   
reply to post by JokerzReality
 



I was mad at the ATS posting system because it deleted everything i had wrote the second time, when i tried to delete a little sentence.


ATS has nothing to do with deleting anything unless your ISP went down your you as the user screwed up somewhere on accident.


My english capabillities fail me yet again!! I'm not pretending anything. Mentalism IS stage magic. What Derren Brown however does, is a combination of mentalism with many other things.


And what those many other thing's is not paranormal.


Well, i don't blame you for not believing that a guy who visits ATS could hook at up with a supermodel. However, it's not so hard. You have to learn some PUA skills and some basic psychology. You don't have to be attractive at all, i'm just lucky i'm good looking although not so tall, as long as you can demonstrate social proof, higher value, confidence and social intelligence. There is a a lot of strategies into doing that that i won't go into here (Unless you want to hear them of course)

Give me your E-mail or something and i will send you dozens of pictures. However, what's the point, you could just as easily claim, that it isn't me on those pictures.


Phoenixbyrd@gmail.com Take a photo with your ATS user name one a piece of paper and have the "supermodel" hold a piece of paper with her name so I can verify who she is.


Simple really, unless your full of it.



No of course not. But i tried some of the technigues he has released myself, and they work. No doubt about it.


No kidding they work.



I verified the accuracy of the source, but not the credibillity of wikipedia.


You do realize how idiotic that statement sounds right?


No matter what, you will claim i was trying to safe face, so you seem more intelligent and the one with the stronger argument.


If I sound somehow more intelligent that you screwed up, so be it, that's your opinion and it's sad that you would view such a screw up as such. Low self-esteem issues maybe?


I've made an error, i tried to point it out.


No, you tried to side step it.


You could choose to either ridicule me pointing out the error like a little child would do to win more credibillity himself, or accept and forget it like an mature adult, am beggining to suspect that your actually not that old with wife and kids.


Allow me to verify who I am then. My Facebook Page
You see how easy it is? Gee, it appear I am a 30 year old married man with three kids after all you little twit.


Just a suspicion, cause i have yet to see an mature adult talk down to people like you do. But then again, i'm not from America.


Being American has nothing to do with treating others how they ask to be treated. You certainly need a good smack of reality as somehow the Denmark education system has failed you miserably. Yet, I concede that you are possibly rebelling against the common secularist beliefs of the majority of the population leading you into a downward spiral of mysticism, spiritualism and other such superstitious beliefs.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by sirnex]



posted on Jul, 1 2010 @ 09:47 PM
link   

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by JokerzReality
 

Your a complete fool if you think your good at fooling people unless the people of Denmark are complete morons, which I would readily believe if you are an accurate representation of the level of intelligence of Denmark.


Thank you for that kind and mature remark. I didn't know that this was turning into an competition of who could give the most insulting comment. I will try not to sink to your level of maturity and intelligence, since most intelligent answer i could get, is how unintelligent the Danish people is.

Funny thing, i fooled a lot of American tourist. It's not so much about what you say, but more about your body language and tone of voice. Your words, are only 7 % of our communications, you use your words, to talk to the persons unconscious mind, while distracting with your body langauge and the illusion that what you're saying actually makes sense to the waking consciousness. Magicians and mentalist are experts on the unconsious mind, which is why i personal consider and mentalist word on the unconscious mind, than a self-rightious atheist who won't accept the truth. Sorry for the insult btw, but it can hardly compare to your insults.



Can you verify that claim?


There is a thread about it here:

Linky



Hm, yes... I was wondering why the Denmark education system, being so high in ranking has failed you miserably.

Was it because you failed to pay attention or was it because you rebel against the secular Atheistic conformity of Denmark?

(HINT: Re-watch the video posted earlier )


Ok. What did i misunderstand according to you about that video? I know that Atheism isn't a morality but a lack of belief in God, and that each individual atheist chooses his own moral(Or is conditioned from government). My arguments had been to those people who claim Atheists don't kill preciously because they don't believe in a religion. Or that atheistic beliefs can't be used as a justification to commit violence, when i've seen it happen. Also, i didn't wan't to blame religion either, but instead the people who manipulates religion for their own benefit. I've seen plenty of friendly muslims who doesn't believe in the whole jihad thing. Seen plenty friendly christians to.

The video to me showed that morallity is your own choice, not something you need an authority to make. It showed to me that both the religious and some of the secular atheistic versions of morallity was flawed at best, which goes to show that the people who thinks that atheist are so flawless are wrong. OMG this is hard to explain without the right words. Look i understood the video, i just have a hard time conveying that understanding in another language than my own. You just don't get how it's like to write in a language so different from your own.



Pick apart your post? You mean debating every point you raise? Apparently you don't know how a debate/argument works. Another point for Denmark huh?!


No i mean picking apart my post, like this was a competition. Awake could debate. He was basicly friendly. When i debate in my own country we speak friendly to each other, never talk down to each other. Well, some do, but they quick become socially outcasts. I talk down to you sometimes, in order to respond to your immature ridicule. I don't start out like this.



Knew what? That you rebel against Atheism because it's the most prominent belief system of your country in which you think Atheist rebel against religion because it's the most prominent belief system in my country you sorry sad little bigoted hypocrite?



You make it sound as such a hateful statement. But no, i already knew the thing about Derren Brown.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by JokerzReality]



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