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Atheists and Dawkins Believe in God

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posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 11:30 AM
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reply to post by sirnex
 




Shouldn't care? Who said Atheists shouldn't care? It's the whole damn basis of origins of the universe! Christ, how the hell did you people in Denmark get a high ranking in education?

Just because Atheists don't believe deities to exist does not mean we don't care at all upon the existence of deities. The origins of the universe is still an unknown topic, we understand that point and we understand that all answers are equally valid until one or another can be proven to be true. Atheists simply see no reason nor evidence to assume a creator of the universe, but we still debate whether there is or not as it's an important issue when discussing origins.


Well, I’ve seen plenty of atheist claiming they shouldn’t care about that. It’s up to the individual atheist to care about the origins of our universe. Not all atheists do that you know? Not everybody is that curious.



Do you have any evidence in which to even believe such a thing to be possible or accurate, or do you just blindly believe that because it sounds cool


It’s because of my experience I believe that. This was a sort of a knowledge which was conveyed to me.



No, I did not see a single Atheist conducting themselves in an aggressively angry manner


No, but they were calm but hateful(Is this my new word(s) instead of hostile?)



Sorry, I meant logical fallacy
.

Still not sure what fallacy means.



It seems perfect because we evolved in the system. Of course it's perfect!

Try saying that jumping on the surface of the moon or swimming in the vast ocean of Europa.


Ok, I get your point. But I still see the signs of intelligence all over the universe, it’s quite hard to explain without using the right words and I’m really tired right now. Maybe I put more of an effort into it later.



I hate these kind of arguments, I really really do

I meditate. I hike almost daily. I garden (mostly tomatoes though). I raise animals. I've witnessed all three of my kids births. I've had a few lucid dreams.

The point is, people make these silly claims that getting in touch with nature, or gaining more understanding through meditation or a lot of other things is all just a crock. It's a state of mind. That something different your feeling is called relaxation. You won't get that same feeling working a 9-5 job with a boss breathing down your neck. Your simply seeing something there that doesn't exist there because you have a skewed sense of reality.


Oh no, I’ve tried meditation and the feeling of relaxation that comes from it. It’s nice, no doubt about it, but it’s far from what I talk about.

You only enjoy your hiking because it relaxes you? Then I must admit, you are really missing out on something. But it’s like the placebo effect I guess, if you’re convinced there’s nothing more to it, you will unconsciously shut yourself down to it, I think.

And the reason it can't be other way around, is because if you expect something to happen you tend to try to hard to feel it, and then nothing happens. You have to let go of all judgemental thoughts and really go with the flow, little like meditation. If you manage to let everything go, and not even have unconscious judgemental thoughts. Then you will experience the true beauty and perfection of nature. Of course you can always expereince it to some degree just by being relaxed while looking at nature. But not to the full extent without letting go of anything judgemental. I know it's hard if you haven't have a spiritual experience before, then you don't really know what to look for.



Agree with what whole last part?


That it’s possible there were no beginning.!




posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


1) TITLE OF THIS THREAD IS FALSE

2) GOD HAS NOT BEEN PROVED TO EXIST BECAUSE IT IS AN UNFALSIFIABLE THEORY OR IDEA.

Would someone prove that the mystical invisible squid at the bottom of the ocean doesn't exist? Will you go out of your way to prove my stupid theory wrong? No you're not going to waste your time, are you? Same goes for any other phoney religion claiming to know god exists and what he/she/it wants.

Topic resolved, no further progression from here, don't let mindless people like this hold you back in your studies.

No one knows god, man has made god, made him using scriptures that you MUST learn if you want to me a member of that religion. Yeah right, So what is it? am i allowed to eat ham? or arn't it? am i allowed to be gay or not? Which god should i choose? Its so random, i should expect hell just by chance.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by sirnex
 



You specifically asked for an Atheist who had an NDE and remained an Atheist. I gave you one and IMMEDIATELY you determined him to be lying, without question. No, not ALL PEOPLE (please do NOT generalize Atheism as a separate group from the human race) are honest. This however is not sufficient reason for you to determine him to be a liar.[


I never once determined him to be lying, and certainly not without question, who is making uneducated, false accusations now? Your misunderstanding of what I say and take it out of context, is not proof that I said he lied. OMFG!! Get real here for a moment. I said it was a POSSIBILLITY to be considered, I do not generalize atheism as a separate group from the human race, however he COULD be lying to end a debate or something, I don’t know. I never determined such a thing. And I do not appreciate you accusing me of doing so, with no reason whatsoever, other than your biased belief about me.



UGH! Nonsense! You are telling me you feel no pride at all for anything? You have no pride for your country? You have no pride for yourself? Do you have low self esteem?

Pride is a GOOD emotion. It's a feeling of self respect, self worth, or a show of being happy for something else.

As an emotion, it has no bearing on evolution. Doesn't Denmark teach basic biology, DNA, evolution? Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if maybe someone screwed up the numbers making Denmark at the top.


Pride can make you blind to your own flaws, which needs to changed. Maybe it is a GOOD emotion, but it can easily blind you from yourself. How come this has something to with biology all off a sudden?



A system of education has no bearing on the inner workings of one's mind or ability to learn or re-learn an old topic taught previously. Your "education" doesn't necessarily end when you leave school. If you are of sound mind, character, and intelligence, then you are more than capable to take a fresh look at anything previously taught
.

I would disagree with that. Everything in the human system has to do with our minds and believes, it's all humanly biased.



What very good reasons would those be? A very good reason would be direct evidence, not attributed events.[


I call my experience direct evidence, for me. I don’t think this is a subject I want to talk about, because you know nothing of what I have experienced, and every time I see you trying to rationalize it, you sound incredible ignorant to me. Like if you knew that your friends girlfriend was sleeping around, but then your friend tells you proudly how much his girlfriend is into him and would never sleep around. So by talking about this experience, which you can not verify objectively, we are stuck on a middle ground, were we get nowhere.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 11:39 AM
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1) TITLE OF THIS THREAD IS FALSE

2) GOD HAS NOT BEEN PROVED TO EXIST BECAUSE IT IS AN UNFALSIFIABLE THEORY OR IDEA.

Would someone prove that the mystical invisible squid at the bottom of the ocean doesn't exist? Will you go out of your way to prove my stupid theory wrong? No you're not going to waste your time, are you? Same goes for any other phoney religion claiming to know god exists and what he/she/it wants.

Topic resolved, no further progression from here, don't let mindless people like this hold you back in your studies.

No one knows god, man has made god, made him using scriptures that you MUST learn if you want to me a member of that religion. Yeah right, So what is it? am i allowed to eat ham? or arn't it? am i allowed to be gay or not? Which god should i choose? Its so random, i should expect hell just by chance.

READ SO YOU DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME ARGUING WITH RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD. PEACE



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 12:08 PM
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There is much evidence of God, in an intuitive sense: the reality of consciousness, intelligent beings and worlds, etc., though very little of a God that intervenes in the affairs of humans.

There is more evidence of Alien contact than there is of a God that intervenes in our affairs. That is a pure faith thing, and has very little legitimate verifiable fact.

Faith healers, believers in sky-God religions, like Muslims, Christians, and Jews, have no-proof that God personally intervenes in this world, its just nothing that has remotely been verified.

When and if anything like a "God" does show in this dimension and intelligently proves to our senses that the phenomenon is "God" then so be it, but it hasnt happend yet.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by inforeal
There is much evidence of God, in an intuitive sense: the reality of consciousness, intelligent beings and worlds, etc., though very little of a God that intervenes in the affairs of humans.


If God is the word you use to describe that then so be it, theres no proof of any entities intervention in human affairs or even natural affairs but you could say "god" is the ultimate source funding the laws of physics of the reality we are in and/or our human consious, intelligence, thought etc.

I agree with the rest of your words.

EDIT: I think it is a possibility that we, using science, may discover the intelligence "code" behind our creation and our realities formaiton. I think science aims to find this, i find religion makes no attempt, it only makes assumptions that should be accepted, if you are to believe in that specific faith and call yourself a follower.




[edit on 28/6/10 by awake_and_aware]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by JokerzReality
 



Well, I must admit. You attacked my post without even knowing my point. That’s probably why I accused you of misunderstanding. Then I suddenly realised that I haven’t made that point clear, about me not understanding every word you use. So sorry about that!!!


If the point you are trying to make is not being adequately conveyed, then can you please take the time to clarify what point you are trying to make. It seems like you are BSing me here as you keep continuing the same line of arguments with the same intended language in that argument despite my numerous inquiries for clarification if that specific language is not meant in it's intended meaning.


How can I offer any further clarification, when I don’t know how exactly in your language?


Try? Is it going to hurt you to try, maybe use different words that convey the proper meaning of what your intending to say? How about using google translate and see if that helps at all.


It’s not that hard really. It’s all about the context you put the word in. The only time it gets hard, is when you have to translate to another language.


Just seems like a lot of unnecessary work to me.


I think you missed my first point, about me not understanding the words they use in the English online dictionary to explain the specific word. Duh….


Duh... Look it up in a dictionary. For instance, if a word is defined by another set of words you don't understand, then look up those words and so on until you are able to then understand the initial word. I'm unsure of how to dumb down my language for others to understand, as for me these are very simple basic words in my language.


No, don’t think you have been angry or aggressive, if that’s the only things, that hostile is used to describe, then I must admit, my choice in using that word was wrong. I saw hostile, in like a calm but hateful behavior towards believers. Like talking down to someone!!


Now that you know what hostile is and that it's the wrong terminology, maybe you can stop using it to describe behavior that is not hostile. Talking down to someone is not a hateful act either. I may talk down to people, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Hate is another strong emotional response, also wholly inaccurate in description here.


I guess you should have read further before posting such an ignorant response. You’re a complete joke, could be considered, in my mind as a calm but hateful remark towards me. Which I see as a extremly immature arrogant remark.


You have a very piss poor understanding on what emotions are and how they are conveyed. I find that ironic for someone claiming they are getting good at "mastering" their emotions. Calling you a joke is not a sign of calm hatred. I do not hate you, I don't even know you enough to the point in which to even have such a strong emotional reaction to you! You annoy me, but that's about as strong of an emotion I have towards you. Remember, those things that annoy are called a nuisance.


What is my ridiculous claim against atheism then? That they are hostile? Then how is my experience a big part of that claim?


In order for me to validate the accuracy of your conclusions that Atheists are hostile in which you claim experience is a factor in that conclusion, then I as being an Atheist and being generalized into this supposed problem of Atheists deserve to know which explicit experience you have had that has led to such a conclusion. As we've already determined, you've made improper usage of the word hostile and as so much I call into question the previous claim that you've concluded Atheists are hostile.


Of what exactly? Where atheists promote how mature and intelligent they are or the non-fundamentalists gets unrightfully attacked. Well, then I will have to go outside this board, because as I mentioned, I wouldn’t mention any names.


In other words you won't provide any evidence from this board, being a public board in which all members can freely and publicly see what has occurred.


Well, I’ve seen plenty of atheist claiming they shouldn’t care about that. It’s up to the individual atheist to care about the origins of our universe. Not all atheists do that you know? Not everybody is that curious.


If there are some Atheists who don't care about understanding origins, then good for them. I am an Atheist that cares deeply in understanding origins as I love to seek out knowledge and learn new things along the way. It was ignorant of you to state so matter of factually that Atheists shouldn't care.


It’s because of my experience I believe that. This was a sort of a knowledge which was conveyed to me.


What experience? What if my experiences say different? Are your experiences somehow better than my experiences because you read into your experiences as meaning there is a god without any evidence other than that?


No, but they were calm but hateful(Is this my new word(s) instead of hostile?)


I did not see them being hateful either.


Still not sure what fallacy means.


Do you own a dictionary?


Ok, I get your point. But I still see the signs of intelligence all over the universe, it’s quite hard to explain without using the right words and I’m really tired right now. Maybe I put more of an effort into it later.


No you don't. You think you do, but you don't. There is nothing indicative of any intelligent force in the universe. If you feel there is, then please point one thing out, just one.


You only enjoy your hiking because it relaxes you? Then I must admit, you are really missing out on something. But it’s like the placebo effect I guess, if you’re convinced there’s nothing more to it, you will unconsciously shut yourself down to it, I think.


Where did I say I enjoy hiking because it relaxes me? I enjoy hiking so I can observe nature, it's great exercise, it gives me a moment to think to myself without the stresses of society. The sense of relaxation I get is a result of not having stress place upon me. I don't need to sensationalize the emotional response and pretend it's something more than it is.


And the reason it can't be other way around, is because if you expect something to happen you tend to try to hard to feel it, and then nothing happens. You have to let go of all judgemental thoughts and really go with the flow, little like meditation. If you manage to let everything go, and not even have unconscious judgemental thoughts. Then you will experience the true beauty and perfection of nature. Of course you can always expereince it to some degree just by being relaxed while looking at nature. But not to the full extent without letting go of anything judgemental. I know it's hard if you haven't have a spiritual experience before, then you don't really know what to look for.


So now as an Atheist I can't enjoy the beauty of nature, the wonders of a sunrise or sunset, or the joy of birds frolicking in a birdbath? I have to "let go" (whatever the hell that means) and pretend that these sensations are indicative of something more than myself and my own sense of things?

Explain what a spiritual experience is, please.


That it’s possible there were no beginning.!


Then you agree there is no God who created the universe. In order to have a deity of sorts that has created the universe then you must inherently believe the universe had a beginning, that's called common sense.


I never once determined him to be lying, and certainly not without question, who is making uneducated, false accusations now? Your misunderstanding of what I say and take it out of context, is not proof that I said he lied. OMFG!! Get real here for a moment. I said it was a POSSIBILLITY to be considered, I do not generalize atheism as a separate group from the human race, however he COULD be lying to end a debate or something, I don’t know. I never determined such a thing. And I do not appreciate you accusing me of doing so, with no reason whatsoever, other than your biased belief about me.



It was the first god damn thing you said about the video! You asked for an Atheist who remained an Atheist after an NDE and I have you one and the first damn thing you said was he could be lying. Don't act like your stupid like that.


Pride can make you blind to your own flaws, which needs to changed. Maybe it is a GOOD emotion, but it can easily blind you from yourself. How come this has something to with biology all off a sudden?


Flaws? What flaws do people have? Hm? Who determines those flaws? Do you get to judge what flaws someone has or does the person who is happy with himself and has self-respect get to judge those flaws?

Why does this have something to do with biology? Gee, I don't know, maybe because emotions are a biological response to external/internal stimuli? Did they skip that in Denmark schools?


I would disagree with that. Everything in the human system has to do with our minds and believes, it's all humanly biased.


Garbage, the only way that would even be close to being true would be if no one was capable of any change in lifestyle or behavior, for starters. Are you saying that people are incapable of exercising the will to change? Your a very judgmental little man for someone pretending to be spiritual.



I call my experience direct evidence, for me. I don’t think this is a subject I want to talk about


Yea, your experience is somehow more important than my life experience because it tells you there is some magical entity behind the universe.

Or, maybe it's more important than a Hindu's, or a Buddhist, or a Navajo Indian or any of the other religions on Earth.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by JokerzReality
 



because you know nothing of what I have experienced, and every time I see you trying to rationalize it, you sound incredible ignorant to me.


How can I rationalize an experience you haven't even told me about?


Like if you knew that your friends girlfriend was sleeping around, but then your friend tells you proudly how much his girlfriend is into him and would never sleep around. So by talking about this experience, which you can not verify objectively, we are stuck on a middle ground, were we get nowhere.


What the hell?



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by traditionaldrummer
 





I'm just recalling what the bible says. I'm making no claims as to whether there are or aren't a god or many gods. But the bible believer must acknowledge the existence of deities other than YHWH and reject them. It suggests a polytheistic spirit realm and mandates a degree of atheism. OMG, you're part atheist!


Get off me!


To save us the arguement, I'll tell you what I do believe. then if you want to go on thinking the bible believer must acknowledge whatever. Then feel free. I believe in one God. I do not believe any other Gods have ever
existed. I believe man has worshipped idols and other entitys even rats
as Gods . That does not make them Gods. There is but one.
All others are false.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 



Yes, there COULD BE a conspiracy in written history and dating of events. Yet in order for this to be true, EVERYONE involved would HAVE TO BE involved. The likelihood of everyone currently involved in history and every to be involved in history in the future is highly improbable. Believing that history could be written wrong or dated wrong calls for everyone now and learning to go into the field later to be in on the continuation of this "wrong history".


While I agree, that it’s highly improbable. I don’t think everyone has had to be involved in a conspiracy. It could just be that people from around that time, had a common bias, I don’t think so. But you never know.



No you don't, you already told me you think your version of God started it.

No beginning means no beginning. It does not mean no big bang, but a universe created by some intelligent entity.


Ok then, I agree that it’s a possibility. What I believe however is that some parts of the universe has always been there and then something (My so called version of God perhaps) started to expand it and create matter.

I know that, thank you very much. But no beginning doesn’t necessarily rule out no big bang. If the big bang wasn’t the event that started the universe but just set some creation in motion. Don’t know if that makes any sense.



What the hell is 'inner knowledge'?


It’s not something you really can define with earthly words, because it’s not something everybody can recognize and put a label on.



Define a 'spiritual experience'
.

The best way I could define it was with this example.

“Can you imagine having 360 degree vision, feeling one with everything, being several places at once, experiencing no time, where everything happens at once while at the same time it takes an eternity, not communicating through words, but through understanding of each other, like telepathy without words involved”



Drugs are drugs, nothing else. I tend to stay away from drugs as I do not need them screwing up the delicate balance of hormones and neurotransmitters in my brain and body.


What’s your point. I was trying to refute the common explanation that it could be reproduced by a drug induced experience.



I've had a few lucid dreams myself, and I fail to see your comparison


Well, don’t you want to get back to reality once you know it’s a dream, a illusion? Of course not, if it’s a pleasant dream. But sometimes, it’s much more pleasant to get back to reality, when lucid dreaming, because of the feeling of being trapped in a illusion. At least that’s how I feel it.



You mean being more aware of your surroundings? Yea, I've felt that
.

No it’s NOT that my friend. An actual 360 degree vision, everything I describe is more like an experience and a knowledge of something, than a feeling of being aware of your surroundings. I have that awareness all the time at the moment, maybe because of my experience. But the experience of it can’t really be compared to just a silly feeling.



Does this mean *every* scientist is like that?


No, where did I say “every” scientist? If I did, that was a misspelling. Or a mistake from my side.



Aye, it is a shame many people decide to use medications rather than making lifestyle and dietary changes
.

Yeah, isn’t it?



I have no way of verifying your claim without you naming some scientists that fit this so called pattern


I know, and I don’t want to do a search on it right now. So let’s drop it.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 




Ketamine can be used to induce NDE experiences. A previous person stated that he also had an OOBE and someone he knows, mother I think, had an NDE. The man in the video you called a lair had an NDE.


Even the site you linked me too talks about NDE's being induced by various means.

n the laboratory, NDEs can be induced using right temporal lobe brain stimulation, the application of hallucinogenic drugs, or extreme gravitational forces. These laboratory experiments prove the NDE to be valid. Whether it is a valid afterlife experience is another matter altogether.

The only distinction being that they only pick out similarities in experience and lump those similarities as having some higher meaning despite the more numerous differences across beliefs, religions and cultures.


Well, it’s an common flaw in those studies to say it’s reproducing an NDE as I see it. I don’t see them having a life review, having 360 degree’s vision, experiencing the sensation of no time, meeting loved one. They maybe see a tunnel, have the feeling of being out of body(but not actually see themselves from above), and feeling like they are not alone. That’s it.

It is induced by a physical event such as physical death, or cheating the brain of physical death. That could just as well show, that somewhere in the right temporal lobe, is a switch which release our soul/spirit whatever you want to call it, and when the soul begins to be released it becomes more aware of the spiritual plain. That’s maybe why my grandma said she saw her parents right before she died, she didn’t know she was going to die at that moment, cause she had just talked about what we should do when we got home. We were talking, all of sudden she looked at the wall and bursted. My parents are here, I see them. Now you can finally meet them, and then she closed her eyes and her heart stopped.

Of course an NDE is biased according to NDE’rs religion, How would you explain it, if you were conditioned to believe in Hinduism. The similarities are, an OBE(seeing the doctors working on you and hearing what they say) a black uncomfortable void and being surprised being alive, a tunnel with the most brightest and loving light at the end, a life review where you even feel your impact on others and what you made them feel(I shocking and surprising aspect of most NDE’re, which is why most tend to change for the better) being meet by a loved one or a being of light. The contradictions, is sometimes the being of love is Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed. Sometimes they see a gate they can’t get pass, and a golden city like explained in Christian myth. Sometimes they walk through the tunnel, sometimes they fly through. The black void, seems to be the most biased place. There they either see demons, the devil, and other strange phenomenon which seems to be based on your own conditioning.



So you dismiss the validity of the bodies role to protect itself prior to the moment of clinical death?


No, I don’t. But if it were a natural defence mechanism, why do only about 20-30 % of cardiac arrest survivors gets it? They have no known similarities, No common genes, they are from different faiths, some are even atheist. And from different countries. According to a study by Pim van Lommel, the claim that it’s a common and natural defence mechanism is illogical if you study the evidence.



Would you prefer a dictionary?


I don’t see that as the best credible source either.



Cure diseases? First I've heard of that one
.

Then you haven’t look at a study made by, I think his name is Mario Baurregaard(Probably spelled that wrong) or maybe he was just the one pointing to the study in a article. Can’t remember right now.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 



No, I don't view it as evidence that the emotional responses are the underlying causation of any physical health related issues.[


Ok sorry, the emotional responses are a symptom of what we think about. You’re were probably right there all along. And I misunderstood what you meant. But I do think that our thoughts dictates our emotions, and what I consider negative emotions, is a result in negative thinking, the negative emotions are a symptom of something bad happening in your body, it’s a sign some chemicals have been released from your brain to your body, which are not good for you. It creates symptoms of illness, and sometimes illness itself. It’s like pessimistic beliefs is the cause of the nocebo effect according to wiki. I’ve heard many doctors saying that the patient, who have the best chance of surviving an operation, is the one's who has an positive belief in the outcome. The pessimistic persons, who are either extremely afraid, don’t trust the doctors, or are convinced in a negative outcome, tend to die during operation.



I disagree. You've made mention that I am a negative person. I do not fit your description health wise of this ill perceived pattern of yours. I've been the way I am right now for as long as I can possibly remember and I've hardly ever gotten sick in my life. From my personal experience, it comes down to lifestyle and dietary reasons that people experience various emotions and these emotions are a necessary response that most people do not simply listen to. If you just experience the emotion without figuring out why you are having that emotion, then the true underlying causation of that emotion will continue unchecked. It simply is not the emotion itself that causes the problems. Learn something about emotional health for clarification.


Well, maybe I have to take that back, cause you don’t seem so negative. However, I’m not saying that it's being unhealthy for you in the moment, but unhealthy for you in the long run, because it becomes a habit. Also I was talking more about the way you talked down to believers, where I didn’t think (and still don’t btw) you had the authority to cause “negative thoughts”(I agree negative emotion were maybe the wrong word to use a causation) in them

But Mastering your negative emotions, simply means mastering your negative thinking. Have you ever tried sky diving, or something where you get this uncontrolled feeling of fear or maybe before you got married, approaching a girl you didn’t know. If you know which parts of your believes and your thinking cause this, you can remove this feeling altogether. This feeling is only good for the flight or fight response, but with no tigers around, it’s really useless in any other situation. What I see as negative emotion, cause stress in your body. And you negative emotions are caused by your mindset.



Ah, so a dietary and lifestyle change fixed one of those so called negative emotion problems? I'm willing to bet that those other problems would be fixed when he learns the root causation of those problems and remedies that problem
.

Well, negative thoughts can keep you obese, like it did with me sometime ago. You can of course lose weight despite negative thought, but then it becomes at matter of will power, and feeling miserable all through the process. I tried that, and I didn’t have the will power to do that. Instead of enjoying the process, you are miserable, and when you’re done you can choose to be stubborn and stick with it, but still be miserable, you can choose to give into your unhealthy habits again or change your train of thoughts and be happy with your new lifestyle. It’s the same thing if you wan’t to stop smoking.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by JokerzReality
 




No, you haven't. You've shown that despite his continued "negativity" he has lost weight which is counter to your argument that pessimism causes harmful reactions in the body, as previously described as obesity in an earlier post. Your simply attributing the remaining problems as being those of pessimistic thinking without any valid scientific or medical reasoning for assuming so. You've actually disproved your point, you just dismiss the results
.

I think I did according to the Nocebo effect. Look at my above response for my opinion on the rest.



OK, then link me to a danish dictionary website that includes the word negative emotion as a defined term of it's own accord.[


My point is, you shouldn’t ignorantly state that, when you know nothing of other countries dictionaries. Maybe your contry have just failed to catch up. I think it's an ignorant statement in general.



I disagree on the assertion that something called a negative emotion exists. Sensationalize a natural response by calling it negative does not make that natural response a bad thing. We have emotions for a reason, they are all there because we NEED them. This is how we have evolved.[


All theory and opinion. I agree that they are there for a reason. I believe the reason is to either point out something bad in your body or your our pattern of thought. The emotions are a result of the bad chemicals released from our brain. The emotions that don’t feel so good, are a sign of a bad chemical being released and that you either have an lifestyle change or a change in thought ahead of you. My opinion according to my personal experience.



Mastering your emotions? You mean being a less emotional person. Emotions convey meaning and information, they inform others of how we feel and what we may think in some cases. Making a girl happy when they pull drama and tantrums is called giving in to their drama and tantrums.[


I mean, removing emotions like fear, that do you not good in most situations in our mostly civilized western world. Fear can keep you from evolving, because your afraid of something new. Anger and hate can keep you from understanding other people. While the thoughts that cause these emotions release the bad stressful chemicals.

HAHA!! If you really believe that’s what you need to do in order to make her happy, I feel sorry for you when your wife, throw tantrums!!



So you assume a pattern you see must be medically linked to emotional cues rather than the root causes of lifestyle and dietary reason for those emotional cues cropping up? You over think things too much and place meanings on perceived patterns where those meanings don't naturally exist


Well, when I see some friends of mine who smokes, eats incredible unhealthy, don’t exercise, but are have an incredible positive outlook on life, never getting sick, always seems to be happy, and don’t think I ever heard any of them complain about headaches, etc. While the some of the pessimistic people who live very healthy, exercise, but keeps getting sick and complain about pain In their body, where the doctor can’t anything, I tend to make such assumptions that it’s a important factor in our health to keep thinking positive. However, most of them I know, have the healthy lifestyle and positive thinking walking hand in hand. Which of course is the best strategy.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 



WTF? I used to play with tarot cards, read my horoscope (still do for fun), I've even cast a magic spell when I was younger to test it out. Interesting thing was, my buddy and I tried that voodoo stuff, we cast a 'death spell' or whatever the hell they called it on this kid in our neighborhood that we didn't like. Within an hour we saw the kid for the first time that day and he looked sick as hell. Turned out he was sick for the past two days and it wasn't because of our spell.

You assume I have no experience in any of this stuff simply because I am an Atheist. Shame on you.


I never made that assumptions. I just stated that you probably think everything new age falls into the category of Tarot reading and Astrology.



Oh wow ... Your actually getting upset over something someone said? I thought you didn't care what other people think. Ooops. I suppose your not that great at mastering your emotions after all huh?[


First off, I didn’t get upset. I used your example of talking down to people, to demonstrate how it looks like that one gets upset and supporting negative thinking by stating such immature things.

Secondly, I’m still learning to mastering my emotions. And I don’t think I will ever stop learning, only getting better at it.



If the point you are trying to make is not being adequately conveyed, then can you please take the time to clarify what point you are trying to make. It seems like you are BSing me here as you keep continuing the same line of arguments with the same intended language in that argument despite my numerous inquiries for clarification if that specific language is not meant in it's intended meaning.

Try? Is it going to hurt you to try, maybe use different words that convey the proper meaning of what your intending to say? How about using google translate and see if that helps at all.


To much work for a freaking argument. I’m not that invested in this argument. I use goolge translate, and it gets even more confusing because as I explained in my example of differences between languages, about multiple meanings and the combination of words need to be switch around to a ridiculously degree in order to make any sense.



Just seems like a lot of unnecessary work to me
.

It’s normal for me, so not so much work there!! It’s only a lot of unnecessary work when you have to translate a meaning.



Now that you know what hostile is and that it's the wrong terminology, maybe you can stop using it to describe behavior that is not hostile. Talking down to someone is not a hateful act either. I may talk down to people, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Hate is another strong emotional response, also wholly inaccurate in description here
.

Well maybe the attacker isn’t hateful, but it diffidently feels like the atheist comes from hateful mindset to the one getting attacked.



You have a very piss poor understanding on what emotions are and how they are conveyed. I find that ironic for someone claiming they are getting good at "mastering" their emotions. Calling you a joke is not a sign of calm hatred. I do not hate you, I don't even know you enough to the point in which to even have such a strong emotional reaction to you! You annoy me, but that's about as strong of an emotion I have towards you. Remember, those things that annoy are called a nuisance.


I think I explained my mix up with the negative emotion thing with negative thinking thing. In order to master your emotions, you need to master your thoughts. Do you claim that you can’t create emotions with a specific though? Being annoyed is a sign of negative thinking, focussing on the negative, destructive aspect, instead of a constructive and positive aspect.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 




In order for me to validate the accuracy of your conclusions that Atheists are hostile in which you claim experience is a factor in that conclusion, then I as being an Atheist and being generalized into this supposed problem of Atheists deserve to know which explicit experience you have had that has led to such a conclusion. As we've already determined, you've made improper usage of the word hostile and as so much I call into question the previous claim that you've concluded Atheists are hostile.


When I was talking about my experience in the quote you referred to. I was talking about my NDE, not about my experience of atheists. So that’s why it wasn’t a big part of my claim about atheist.



In other words you won't provide any evidence from this board, being a public board in which all members can freely and publicly see what has occurred.


Well, I don’t think I have the authority to draw others into this battle. I wasn’t looking for an argument with my original post. I’m only answering what you wrote to me.



If there are some Atheists who don't care about understanding origins, then good for them. I am an Atheist that cares deeply in understanding origins as I love to seek out knowledge and learn new things along the way. It was ignorant of you to state so matter of factually that Atheists shouldn't care
.

Well, maybe it was ignorant of me doing so. But I think I had a good reason, when a lot of my atheistic friends say that they shouldn’t care if god exist or not.



What experience? What if my experiences say different? Are your experiences somehow better than my experiences because you read into your experiences as meaning there is a god without any evidence other than that?


No, my experience, are not any better than yours, never even said that. You asked if it was some idea I thought of because it sounded cool. I’m saying that it was nothing like that, but more like an knowledge conveyed to me, which I know from myself, that a person who haven’t that experience can fully understand and relate to it. I couldn’t before I had one myself.



Do you own a dictionary?


A Danish one, not an English one



No you don't. You think you do, but you don't. There is nothing indicative of any intelligent force in the universe. If you feel there is, then please point one thing out, just one
.

Our earth position is extremely lucky, just far enough away, and close enough to support water. We have giant gas planets, that take the worst of comets and asteroids from outside and inside our solar system. I accept it as being a coincidence, but when I look at the order solar systems and galaxies appear to have, I see it as a sign of intelligence. However I accept your standpoint and view of this subject. I know I could explain it a lot better and a lot more convincing in my own language, because there are a lot more signs, which I have difficulties of explaining but for now this will suffice.



Where did I say I enjoy hiking because it relaxes me? I enjoy hiking so I can observe nature, it's great exercise, it gives me a moment to think to myself without the stresses of society. The sense of relaxation I get is a result of not having stress place upon me. I don't need to sensationalize the emotional response and pretend it's something more than it is
.

I’m sorry, I thought, that was the idea you tried to convey to me.

“I don't need to sensationalize the emotional response and pretend it's something more than it is”

Neither does i. If you had the same experience I’ve had in nature you would know that I don’t sensationalize and pretend anything.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:57 PM
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So now as an Atheist I can't enjoy the beauty of nature, the wonders of a sunrise or sunset, or the joy of birds frolicking in a birdbath? I have to "let go" (whatever the hell that means) and pretend that these sensations are indicative of something more than myself and my own sense of things?

Explain what a spiritual experience is, please.


Of course you can, just not to the full extent I believe. And where do you see me saying that and that as an atheist you can’t. I say as an person who either is convinced that there is nothing more to it, or have never experienced the full extent of the incredible sensation of being one with nature. Before my experience I never experienced it to the full extent. I loved being in nature and enjoying the beauty, but after my experience I realised that my previous experience with nature were, only a taste of what was possible. I believe by letting go of judgemental thought when in nature anyone can experience it.

I can’t explain what a spiritual experience it. You have to experience it. When you experience something which can’t be explained with our limited words. Then, if you not mentally ill, you probably had an spiritual experience.



Then you agree there is no God who created the universe. In order to have a deity of sorts that has created the universe then you must inherently believe the universe had a beginning, that's called common sense.


That’s a possibility. I’m not so restricted to my belief as to not thinking outside the box. I believe in God because of my personal experience. My personal experience could be the brain just dying. Yeah, but when I hear a sceptics explanation the tend to be incredible ignorant cause they don’t really know what they are talking about, because they didn’t have one themselves. Until they think up just a little bit of a reasonable explanation as to how and why this is an brain chemistry phenomenon, which can explain the things I went through without cherry picking from the whole experience, than I will consider that possibility. But when they just keeps up on making ignorant theories where they only thing they prove to the NDE’r, is that they really don’t know what they are talking about, I have a hard time considering their ideas. However, I do consider that it could be just my brain dying, but the sceptical explanations so far are full of holes and ignorant.



It was the first god damn thing you said about the video! You asked for an Atheist who remained an Atheist after an NDE and I have you one and the first damn thing you said was he could be lying. Don't act like your stupid like that.


Yeah, you’re right I said he COULD be lying. To make you consider that possibility. How is that determining that he IS lying? I think it’s you that are acting are little stupid right now.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 



Flaws? What flaws do people have? Hm? Who determines those flaws? Do you get to judge what flaws someone has or does the person who is happy with himself and has self-respect get to judge those flaws?

Why does this have something to do with biology? Gee, I don't know, maybe because emotions are a biological response to external/internal stimuli? Did they skip that in Denmark schools?


Actually, I’m in a line of work where I have to determine which things are holding you back from personally growth. People that are unhappy with their lives come to the company I work for to get advise in things they need to change. We go out with them, show them how to be more social intelligent, how to master your unnecessary emotions, how to achieve what you wan’t in life and pride is one of the things which keeps them from doing anything about their lives even though they are unhappy. I have to judge, in order to help. I’m not talking about the kind of pride a self-righteous dude feels when he is happy with his life. That I don’t consider either bad nor good in anyway. It’s just an unnecessary feeling which at worst can prevent you from growing, fooling yourself that you can’t change the depressed days you sometimes have, because you haven’t gotten out of life want you wanted, fooling yourself that you can’t grow anymore by facing your fears, is a negative effect of pride.



Garbage, the only way that would even be close to being true would be if no one was capable of any change in lifestyle or behavior, for starters. Are you saying that people are incapable of exercising the will to change? Your a very judgmental little man for someone pretending to be spiritual
.

Well, that statement is pure garbage in my mind. When have I said that people are incapable of exercising the will to change?

What my point here is, which I think you misunderstood or something, is that everything we as humans have created, every theory, every opinion, every educational system, is biased from an human point of view. There could be explanations which are much more logical, we never even considered, and maybe never even have the ability the fathom because of our limited brain capacity. For example, how would you explain colour to a person born blind? Have can I explain a spiritual experience to a person who never had one? How do we know there isn’t are more logical explanation for, lets take an example, evolution, the fossils, etc.(Just an example) If we are born blind to that logical explanation?



Yea, your experience is somehow more important than my life experience because it tells you there is some magical entity behind the universe.

Or, maybe it's more important than a Hindu's, or a Buddhist, or a Navajo Indian or any of the other religions on Earth.


No not more important, but more relevant, if I had one, and you hadn’t.
That’s an argument against religious persons, that don’t work against me. Because all the above mentioned know what I talk about, if they had the same experience, but just explains it from their oint of viewm with their knowledge. I’ve even seen both Hindu’s, Buddhist and Indians explain that kind of experience, in a way that the audience didn’t seem to understand. They even stated that, like I do, that it’s something that needs to be experienced before any understanding can come from it.



How can I rationalize an experience you haven't even told me about?[


You rationalized NDE’s. When we were discussing them.



What the hell?[


Just an example of in which way I feel your being ignorant, while feeling sorry for you!!


[edit on 28-6-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by darkbake
No one can prove that God doesn't exist.
No one can prove that the following does not exist: Ghosts, Goblins, Fairies, Trolls, Dwarves, Giants, Unicorns, Dragons, Wizards, Demons, Angels, Greys, Reptilians, MIB, Other Gods, and so on. If you can apply this argument to every ridiculous belief out there, it's not a good argument. Also, it's a logical fallacy.

EDIT: Yeah, I didn't read the rest of the page before making this post.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by technical difficulties]



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


I'm a big fan of Derren Brown (If you know who that is) He is very good at showing peoplehow they can fool themselves to see something that isn't there because of comforting feelings, conformation bias, etc. I reconize that feeling when it pops up.

I've been into all of thata cold reading, and mentalism stuff, a lot, so i think i know what you mean when you indirctly accuse me of sensationalizing and pretending something from an feeling. But that isn't the case with what i'm talking about. It's not just comforting feelings, or some brain state which i misinterpreted in order to fool myself to think that it's more significant than it is.

It's something which have yet to be explained properly with human terms. And i don't pretend to be intelligent enough to offer an logical explanation for it, when nobody else can.

You are properly going to give an long reply, where i have to give an even longer, cause i can only right 4000 words in a post. We are not really going to agree in the big picture. There's almost nothing you can write which i can't give an counter-argument to, and vice verse. When it comes down to it, it's ALL subjectives believes, opinions, etc. I accept that you don't agree with that. Personally i see it as an extremly ignorant and narrow minded view, if one believes that everything he/she has put his faith in, be it science or something else, is the truth. Maybe it's the most reasonable explanation, which i will agree, that scince tends to give, but the theories are always subjective, no matter what you agree with.

But to the point. I just don't feel the desire to perticipate in this discussion anymore. And me not answering your point does not mean i can't give an counter-argument or that i agree with you. But that i can see a pattern here, and that mo matter i or you say, we could go on forever. And i've already invested to much energy and precious time on this debate, so i respectfully retire from this battle. Give the counter-argument you feel for, but if you ask any questions, you will not get an answer.

Thank's for the debate my friend. Have an nice one.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by JokerzReality]



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by technical difficulties

Originally posted by darkbake
No one can prove that God doesn't exist.
No one can prove that the following does not exist: Ghosts, Goblins, Fairies, Trolls, Dwarves, Giants, Unicorns, Dragons, Wizards, Demons, Angels, Greys, Reptilians, MIB, Other Gods, and so on. If you can apply this argument to every ridiculous belief out there, it's not a good argument. Also, it's a logical fallacy.

EDIT: Yeah, I didn't read the rest of the page before making this post.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by technical difficulties]


Great Point, or the fact that theres many Gods, if The one true "god" should subcribe to only 1 religion, then you should expect damnation as a matter of chance....

If God believes you should live by Islam, and you have been eating ham all your life - You're going to hell. If god wishes you only to have one wife, but you're a morman and you have 5, you're going to hell.

Are you religious people not worried that your scriptures adequately conveys God's wishes? How do you know? Can you know? Can you get real some time?

Religious people still fail to see the logic in that, they are so convinced "their" religion is right.

How myopic, how narrow-minded, how gullable, how illogical, how ignorant.



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