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Shouldn't care? Who said Atheists shouldn't care? It's the whole damn basis of origins of the universe! Christ, how the hell did you people in Denmark get a high ranking in education?
Just because Atheists don't believe deities to exist does not mean we don't care at all upon the existence of deities. The origins of the universe is still an unknown topic, we understand that point and we understand that all answers are equally valid until one or another can be proven to be true. Atheists simply see no reason nor evidence to assume a creator of the universe, but we still debate whether there is or not as it's an important issue when discussing origins.
Do you have any evidence in which to even believe such a thing to be possible or accurate, or do you just blindly believe that because it sounds cool
No, I did not see a single Atheist conducting themselves in an aggressively angry manner
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Sorry, I meant logical fallacy
It seems perfect because we evolved in the system. Of course it's perfect!
Try saying that jumping on the surface of the moon or swimming in the vast ocean of Europa.
I hate these kind of arguments, I really really do
I meditate. I hike almost daily. I garden (mostly tomatoes though). I raise animals. I've witnessed all three of my kids births. I've had a few lucid dreams.
The point is, people make these silly claims that getting in touch with nature, or gaining more understanding through meditation or a lot of other things is all just a crock. It's a state of mind. That something different your feeling is called relaxation. You won't get that same feeling working a 9-5 job with a boss breathing down your neck. Your simply seeing something there that doesn't exist there because you have a skewed sense of reality.
Agree with what whole last part?
You specifically asked for an Atheist who had an NDE and remained an Atheist. I gave you one and IMMEDIATELY you determined him to be lying, without question. No, not ALL PEOPLE (please do NOT generalize Atheism as a separate group from the human race) are honest. This however is not sufficient reason for you to determine him to be a liar.[
UGH! Nonsense! You are telling me you feel no pride at all for anything? You have no pride for your country? You have no pride for yourself? Do you have low self esteem?
Pride is a GOOD emotion. It's a feeling of self respect, self worth, or a show of being happy for something else.
As an emotion, it has no bearing on evolution. Doesn't Denmark teach basic biology, DNA, evolution? Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if maybe someone screwed up the numbers making Denmark at the top.
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A system of education has no bearing on the inner workings of one's mind or ability to learn or re-learn an old topic taught previously. Your "education" doesn't necessarily end when you leave school. If you are of sound mind, character, and intelligence, then you are more than capable to take a fresh look at anything previously taught
What very good reasons would those be? A very good reason would be direct evidence, not attributed events.[
Originally posted by inforeal
There is much evidence of God, in an intuitive sense: the reality of consciousness, intelligent beings and worlds, etc., though very little of a God that intervenes in the affairs of humans.
Well, I must admit. You attacked my post without even knowing my point. That’s probably why I accused you of misunderstanding. Then I suddenly realised that I haven’t made that point clear, about me not understanding every word you use. So sorry about that!!!
How can I offer any further clarification, when I don’t know how exactly in your language?
It’s not that hard really. It’s all about the context you put the word in. The only time it gets hard, is when you have to translate to another language.
I think you missed my first point, about me not understanding the words they use in the English online dictionary to explain the specific word. Duh….
No, don’t think you have been angry or aggressive, if that’s the only things, that hostile is used to describe, then I must admit, my choice in using that word was wrong. I saw hostile, in like a calm but hateful behavior towards believers. Like talking down to someone!!
I guess you should have read further before posting such an ignorant response. You’re a complete joke, could be considered, in my mind as a calm but hateful remark towards me. Which I see as a extremly immature arrogant remark.
What is my ridiculous claim against atheism then? That they are hostile? Then how is my experience a big part of that claim?
Of what exactly? Where atheists promote how mature and intelligent they are or the non-fundamentalists gets unrightfully attacked. Well, then I will have to go outside this board, because as I mentioned, I wouldn’t mention any names.
Well, I’ve seen plenty of atheist claiming they shouldn’t care about that. It’s up to the individual atheist to care about the origins of our universe. Not all atheists do that you know? Not everybody is that curious.
It’s because of my experience I believe that. This was a sort of a knowledge which was conveyed to me.
No, but they were calm but hateful(Is this my new word(s) instead of hostile?)
Still not sure what fallacy means.
Ok, I get your point. But I still see the signs of intelligence all over the universe, it’s quite hard to explain without using the right words and I’m really tired right now. Maybe I put more of an effort into it later.
You only enjoy your hiking because it relaxes you? Then I must admit, you are really missing out on something. But it’s like the placebo effect I guess, if you’re convinced there’s nothing more to it, you will unconsciously shut yourself down to it, I think.
And the reason it can't be other way around, is because if you expect something to happen you tend to try to hard to feel it, and then nothing happens. You have to let go of all judgemental thoughts and really go with the flow, little like meditation. If you manage to let everything go, and not even have unconscious judgemental thoughts. Then you will experience the true beauty and perfection of nature. Of course you can always expereince it to some degree just by being relaxed while looking at nature. But not to the full extent without letting go of anything judgemental. I know it's hard if you haven't have a spiritual experience before, then you don't really know what to look for.
That it’s possible there were no beginning.!
I never once determined him to be lying, and certainly not without question, who is making uneducated, false accusations now? Your misunderstanding of what I say and take it out of context, is not proof that I said he lied. OMFG!! Get real here for a moment. I said it was a POSSIBILLITY to be considered, I do not generalize atheism as a separate group from the human race, however he COULD be lying to end a debate or something, I don’t know. I never determined such a thing. And I do not appreciate you accusing me of doing so, with no reason whatsoever, other than your biased belief about me.
Pride can make you blind to your own flaws, which needs to changed. Maybe it is a GOOD emotion, but it can easily blind you from yourself. How come this has something to with biology all off a sudden?
I would disagree with that. Everything in the human system has to do with our minds and believes, it's all humanly biased.
I call my experience direct evidence, for me. I don’t think this is a subject I want to talk about
because you know nothing of what I have experienced, and every time I see you trying to rationalize it, you sound incredible ignorant to me.
Like if you knew that your friends girlfriend was sleeping around, but then your friend tells you proudly how much his girlfriend is into him and would never sleep around. So by talking about this experience, which you can not verify objectively, we are stuck on a middle ground, were we get nowhere.
I'm just recalling what the bible says. I'm making no claims as to whether there are or aren't a god or many gods. But the bible believer must acknowledge the existence of deities other than YHWH and reject them. It suggests a polytheistic spirit realm and mandates a degree of atheism. OMG, you're part atheist!
Yes, there COULD BE a conspiracy in written history and dating of events. Yet in order for this to be true, EVERYONE involved would HAVE TO BE involved. The likelihood of everyone currently involved in history and every to be involved in history in the future is highly improbable. Believing that history could be written wrong or dated wrong calls for everyone now and learning to go into the field later to be in on the continuation of this "wrong history".
No you don't, you already told me you think your version of God started it.
No beginning means no beginning. It does not mean no big bang, but a universe created by some intelligent entity.
What the hell is 'inner knowledge'?
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Define a 'spiritual experience'
Drugs are drugs, nothing else. I tend to stay away from drugs as I do not need them screwing up the delicate balance of hormones and neurotransmitters in my brain and body.
I've had a few lucid dreams myself, and I fail to see your comparison
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You mean being more aware of your surroundings? Yea, I've felt that
Does this mean *every* scientist is like that?
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Aye, it is a shame many people decide to use medications rather than making lifestyle and dietary changes
I have no way of verifying your claim without you naming some scientists that fit this so called pattern
Ketamine can be used to induce NDE experiences. A previous person stated that he also had an OOBE and someone he knows, mother I think, had an NDE. The man in the video you called a lair had an NDE.
Even the site you linked me too talks about NDE's being induced by various means.
n the laboratory, NDEs can be induced using right temporal lobe brain stimulation, the application of hallucinogenic drugs, or extreme gravitational forces. These laboratory experiments prove the NDE to be valid. Whether it is a valid afterlife experience is another matter altogether.
The only distinction being that they only pick out similarities in experience and lump those similarities as having some higher meaning despite the more numerous differences across beliefs, religions and cultures.
So you dismiss the validity of the bodies role to protect itself prior to the moment of clinical death?
Would you prefer a dictionary?
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Cure diseases? First I've heard of that one
No, I don't view it as evidence that the emotional responses are the underlying causation of any physical health related issues.[
I disagree. You've made mention that I am a negative person. I do not fit your description health wise of this ill perceived pattern of yours. I've been the way I am right now for as long as I can possibly remember and I've hardly ever gotten sick in my life. From my personal experience, it comes down to lifestyle and dietary reasons that people experience various emotions and these emotions are a necessary response that most people do not simply listen to. If you just experience the emotion without figuring out why you are having that emotion, then the true underlying causation of that emotion will continue unchecked. It simply is not the emotion itself that causes the problems. Learn something about emotional health for clarification.
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Ah, so a dietary and lifestyle change fixed one of those so called negative emotion problems? I'm willing to bet that those other problems would be fixed when he learns the root causation of those problems and remedies that problem
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No, you haven't. You've shown that despite his continued "negativity" he has lost weight which is counter to your argument that pessimism causes harmful reactions in the body, as previously described as obesity in an earlier post. Your simply attributing the remaining problems as being those of pessimistic thinking without any valid scientific or medical reasoning for assuming so. You've actually disproved your point, you just dismiss the results
OK, then link me to a danish dictionary website that includes the word negative emotion as a defined term of it's own accord.[
I disagree on the assertion that something called a negative emotion exists. Sensationalize a natural response by calling it negative does not make that natural response a bad thing. We have emotions for a reason, they are all there because we NEED them. This is how we have evolved.[
Mastering your emotions? You mean being a less emotional person. Emotions convey meaning and information, they inform others of how we feel and what we may think in some cases. Making a girl happy when they pull drama and tantrums is called giving in to their drama and tantrums.[
So you assume a pattern you see must be medically linked to emotional cues rather than the root causes of lifestyle and dietary reason for those emotional cues cropping up? You over think things too much and place meanings on perceived patterns where those meanings don't naturally exist
WTF? I used to play with tarot cards, read my horoscope (still do for fun), I've even cast a magic spell when I was younger to test it out. Interesting thing was, my buddy and I tried that voodoo stuff, we cast a 'death spell' or whatever the hell they called it on this kid in our neighborhood that we didn't like. Within an hour we saw the kid for the first time that day and he looked sick as hell. Turned out he was sick for the past two days and it wasn't because of our spell.
You assume I have no experience in any of this stuff simply because I am an Atheist. Shame on you.
Oh wow ... Your actually getting upset over something someone said? I thought you didn't care what other people think. Ooops. I suppose your not that great at mastering your emotions after all huh?[
If the point you are trying to make is not being adequately conveyed, then can you please take the time to clarify what point you are trying to make. It seems like you are BSing me here as you keep continuing the same line of arguments with the same intended language in that argument despite my numerous inquiries for clarification if that specific language is not meant in it's intended meaning.
Try? Is it going to hurt you to try, maybe use different words that convey the proper meaning of what your intending to say? How about using google translate and see if that helps at all.
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Just seems like a lot of unnecessary work to me
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Now that you know what hostile is and that it's the wrong terminology, maybe you can stop using it to describe behavior that is not hostile. Talking down to someone is not a hateful act either. I may talk down to people, but that doesn't mean I hate them. Hate is another strong emotional response, also wholly inaccurate in description here
You have a very piss poor understanding on what emotions are and how they are conveyed. I find that ironic for someone claiming they are getting good at "mastering" their emotions. Calling you a joke is not a sign of calm hatred. I do not hate you, I don't even know you enough to the point in which to even have such a strong emotional reaction to you! You annoy me, but that's about as strong of an emotion I have towards you. Remember, those things that annoy are called a nuisance.
In order for me to validate the accuracy of your conclusions that Atheists are hostile in which you claim experience is a factor in that conclusion, then I as being an Atheist and being generalized into this supposed problem of Atheists deserve to know which explicit experience you have had that has led to such a conclusion. As we've already determined, you've made improper usage of the word hostile and as so much I call into question the previous claim that you've concluded Atheists are hostile.
In other words you won't provide any evidence from this board, being a public board in which all members can freely and publicly see what has occurred.
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If there are some Atheists who don't care about understanding origins, then good for them. I am an Atheist that cares deeply in understanding origins as I love to seek out knowledge and learn new things along the way. It was ignorant of you to state so matter of factually that Atheists shouldn't care
What experience? What if my experiences say different? Are your experiences somehow better than my experiences because you read into your experiences as meaning there is a god without any evidence other than that?
Do you own a dictionary?
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No you don't. You think you do, but you don't. There is nothing indicative of any intelligent force in the universe. If you feel there is, then please point one thing out, just one
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Where did I say I enjoy hiking because it relaxes me? I enjoy hiking so I can observe nature, it's great exercise, it gives me a moment to think to myself without the stresses of society. The sense of relaxation I get is a result of not having stress place upon me. I don't need to sensationalize the emotional response and pretend it's something more than it is
So now as an Atheist I can't enjoy the beauty of nature, the wonders of a sunrise or sunset, or the joy of birds frolicking in a birdbath? I have to "let go" (whatever the hell that means) and pretend that these sensations are indicative of something more than myself and my own sense of things?
Explain what a spiritual experience is, please.
Then you agree there is no God who created the universe. In order to have a deity of sorts that has created the universe then you must inherently believe the universe had a beginning, that's called common sense.
It was the first god damn thing you said about the video! You asked for an Atheist who remained an Atheist after an NDE and I have you one and the first damn thing you said was he could be lying. Don't act like your stupid like that.
Flaws? What flaws do people have? Hm? Who determines those flaws? Do you get to judge what flaws someone has or does the person who is happy with himself and has self-respect get to judge those flaws?
Why does this have something to do with biology? Gee, I don't know, maybe because emotions are a biological response to external/internal stimuli? Did they skip that in Denmark schools?
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Garbage, the only way that would even be close to being true would be if no one was capable of any change in lifestyle or behavior, for starters. Are you saying that people are incapable of exercising the will to change? Your a very judgmental little man for someone pretending to be spiritual
Yea, your experience is somehow more important than my life experience because it tells you there is some magical entity behind the universe.
Or, maybe it's more important than a Hindu's, or a Buddhist, or a Navajo Indian or any of the other religions on Earth.
How can I rationalize an experience you haven't even told me about?[
What the hell?[
No one can prove that the following does not exist: Ghosts, Goblins, Fairies, Trolls, Dwarves, Giants, Unicorns, Dragons, Wizards, Demons, Angels, Greys, Reptilians, MIB, Other Gods, and so on. If you can apply this argument to every ridiculous belief out there, it's not a good argument. Also, it's a logical fallacy.
Originally posted by darkbake
No one can prove that God doesn't exist.
Originally posted by technical difficulties
No one can prove that the following does not exist: Ghosts, Goblins, Fairies, Trolls, Dwarves, Giants, Unicorns, Dragons, Wizards, Demons, Angels, Greys, Reptilians, MIB, Other Gods, and so on. If you can apply this argument to every ridiculous belief out there, it's not a good argument. Also, it's a logical fallacy.
Originally posted by darkbake
No one can prove that God doesn't exist.
EDIT: Yeah, I didn't read the rest of the page before making this post.
[edit on 28-6-2010 by technical difficulties]