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Atheists and Dawkins Believe in God

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posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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This is a response I wrote to a recent thread that I thought deserved its own posting.

No one can prove that God doesn't exist. In fact, those that I have met who think that God doesn't exist still believe he does, they just don't like him. Try reading Dawkins. Dawkins doesn't spend a single second of his book "The God Delusion" proving that God doesn't exist. Instead, he spends the entire piece of trash railing on a God that DAWKINS HIMSELF BELIEVES TO EXIST, or else he wouldn't bother to insult Him and his followers.

Two years ago, I was having a crisis and wasn't sure if God existed or not or if I existed / had a soul or not. So do you know what happened?

I assumed that God did not exist, I assumed that free will did not exist. And THAT is when you realize they do, because things don't add up. It is called a proof by contradiction.

I even visualized it at the time. I was walking next to a dark lake, the thick, black water representing nihilism, no free will, no soul, no God. I was very afraid of this lake. And then I thought, "why am I just standing here?" So I jumped in. And do you know what happened? In the darkness, it became easier to see the light.

I saw specks of light all around me representing real, scientific and logical flaws with the idea that God and free will do not exist. I got in contact with Dr. Fred Alan Wolf, a quantum physicist, bought his books and those of a few other authors, and eventually wrote an independent study for my psychology major on a Quantum Theory of Mind that will probably never be taken seriously by the mainstream scientists for anywhere from 30 to 1000 years, when they finally get their heads out of their asses.

Until then, I am still collecting news articles and scientific data to back up my theories. I am even going to be running a few experiments here eventually, but for this exact moment I am lying low. The world seems to have become very hostile towards those who believe in the *spiritual.*

[edit on 24-6-2010 by darkbake]



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posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:04 PM
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Oh, ok then.
So you want him to try to spend his whole book disproving god, yet not using any of the currently accepted definitions of god.
Brilliant!
You are literally asking him to disprove nothing.


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posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 




No one can prove that God doesn't exist.


Atheists don't have to. The lack of evidence for God speaks volumes - it doesn't mean God doesn't exist 100% for sure but it does mean there's no reason to believe in God. Why believe in something for which there is no evidence? Unicorns, fairies, magically talking sandwiches, Zeus, etc. Why believe in them if there is no evidence of their existence and why believe that your particular magic-man is more likely than someone else's when neither have any evidence backing up the belief?



he spends the entire piece of trash railing on a God that DAWKINS HIMSELF BELIEVES TO EXIST, or else he wouldn't bother to insult Him and his followers.


I've never read the book as I'm not a Dawkin's fan and was already an atheist when I learned of the book's existence. I don't think that one needs to believe in the God of, say the Bible (or the Koran) to "rail" on that deity. When I criticize Yahweh, the Biblical God, I do so not because I believe such a being exists but because OTHER PEOPLE DO believe it. Its no different than judging any other fictional character. For instance I have often compared the actions of the Darth Vader character in Revenge of the Sith to the actions of the God character in Exodus - both slaughter children - the difference is that Christians believe this God character really exists and often say that Yahweh was JUSTIFIED in slaughtering children in Egypt. So Darth Vader kills kids and is Evil but when this fictional God character does it its okay?



I assumed that God did not exist, I assumed that free will did not exist.


Why must a magical man in the sky exist in order to have free will? Surely you don't think our decision making ability is dependent on a divine sky daddy, why would it have to be? Its not "proof by contradiction" its very poor reasoning in order to justify a psychological crutch (namely FAITH).



scientific and logical flaws with the idea that God and free will do not exist.


Again your mistake is linking free will with God, the two need not go together. I'm an atheist - that doesn't make me a determinist - though certainly I think cause and effect play some part in our decisions our brains also give us the ability to break out of that mold and make counter-intuitive or outside the box choices that would not be predicted by pure determinism.



The world seems to have become very hostile towards those who believe in the *spiritual.*


I'm not sure where you get this idea, the world is filled with the faithful, the vast majority of human beings believe in one superstition or another.

I don't see why it surprises believers that their faith in something for which there is no evidence raises opposition.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:52 PM
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Why do we have to endure these piece of crap posts over and over again. No-one can prove sh-t, one way or another - deal with it meat heads.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by Amagnon
Why do we have to endure these piece of crap posts over and over again. No-one can prove sh-t, one way or another - deal with it meat heads.

This is a debate forum...
Perhaps the television is what you're after.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


Trust me, it doesn't deserve it's own posting.

1. You cannot prove a negative. If a god does not exist, there will not be any evidence to prove that it doesn't.

2. I'm an Atheist, and I don't believe in any gods.

Do you have that independent study avaliable for us to read?

[edit on 24-6-2010 by PieKeeper]



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:57 PM
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I must admit. Most arguments i see from believers and atheist alike, sounds incredible ignorant.

I find the faires and unicorns argument really stupid because how can you compare God with a unicorn. However i do get what they mean. Maybe you can compare the God of the bible with a unicorn, because they could be both a work of fiction, however, God is considered the ultimate creator, i mean, our universe do exists, we are here are we not? So you could consider the concept of God as a scientific theory, because it has just as much evidence as any other theory regarding the start of of the universe (If there even is one), the big bang being the most popular. I know of the pictures being taken of the big bang or whatever, but still, it's just some stupid theory based on a bunch of pictures(Not really into all of this, so please correct me if i'm wrong)

Even Einstein said that there has to be a creator of the universe, just not a personal one. A unicorn has no reason to exist, but God do, whatever shape or form he/she/it is in, and whatever dimension he is from. Is God consiousness? Is God Alien? Is God Energy? Is he the whole universe? God has a reason to exists, as the creator of us and the universe. I get it's like a easy way out of figuring out what really created our universe, since there is no evidence for it. It's like a excuse not to think, i know, it's not the scientific way. But still, believing in a God of some sort is much more valid, than believing in a unicorn, because he's like a theory of creation.

But i agree, the god of the bible is like believing in a unicorn. If god enteracted with humans, where is he today? Also the god of the bible sounds really evil, not someone i would like to meet!! Not someone who is suppose to be all loving and good.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by hippomchippo

Originally posted by Amagnon
Why do we have to endure these piece of crap posts over and over again. No-one can prove sh-t, one way or another - deal with it meat heads.

This is a debate forum...
Perhaps the television is what you're after.


She's got a point. Those that don't believe in god are just as much in the "faith" field as anyone else. Sorry guys. I'll see you on the other side and we can talk then. If there is another side.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by intrepid
 




Those that don't believe in god are just as much in the "faith" field as anyone else.


How does lacking faith require faith? I think the lack of logic in this statement is about to make my brain explode.

Atheism is all about lack of evidence, it is a lack of belief, a lack of faith.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by darkbake
 


To be fair Wolf himself doesn't have the best reputation in physics. However, Henry Stapp and the subsequent work he did with Jeffrey Schwartz did provide a convincing argument for a quantum theory of mind. At this time though the evidence is still lacking and it doesn't work any better than the current biological model.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
She's got a point. Those that don't believe in god are just as much in the "faith" field as anyone else. Sorry guys. I'll see you on the other side and we can talk then. If there is another side.


You're wrong. The burden of proof lies upon those that believe gods exists. In the case of most atheists, they simply lack a belief in gods.

Why would you need faith to not believe or disbelieve something? We don't believe in magic, does that take faith? No, it doesn't, because there is no evidence that magic is real. To have "faith" in the disbelief in magic is as if we have no reason to disbelieve it in the first place.

The same applies to gods. We don't have "faith" that gods do not exist, because we have no reason to believe that they do.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by PieKeeper]



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by darkbake
No one can prove that God doesn't exist. In fact, those that I have met who think that God doesn't exist still believe he does, they just don't like him. Try reading Dawkins. Dawkins doesn't spend a single second of his book "The God Delusion" proving that God doesn't exist. Instead, he spends the entire piece of trash railing on a God that DAWKINS HIMSELF BELIEVES TO EXIST, or else he wouldn't bother to insult Him and his followers.


How ridiculous. Trying to shift the burden of responsibility does not improve your argument. In truth, atheists do not deny there is a god because a denial would imply that there's a choice, in the first place, between belief and non-belief to be made... and an atheist's platform, at its core, is there is no reason to question the "believability" of a god because there is zero evidence to prompt such a question. Plain and simple and no offense intended. There is no emotion or zealousness or wanting to be right.

Taking a random side of a random argument and deciding side A or side B must disprove the other side and if they don't, the opposing side wins can, I suppose, be fun and a cute exercise. But I find the few atheists I come across who are interested in sharing their opinions express the simple lack of evidence as the reason (not necessarily the justification) for the lack of belief in a deity.

An atheist would be a deist if there was evidence of a deity. That is an inferred part of the definition of an atheist.

Deists' head explode at the idea that they can't prove their deity. A lot is at stake. And they fume that atheists claim that there is no evidence for a deity because it is evident.

[edit on Jun 24, 2010 by Hadrian]



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 08:42 PM
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She's got a point. Those that don't believe in god are just as much in the "faith" field as anyone else. Sorry guys. I'll see you on the other side and we can talk then. If there is another side.


I disagree! The old argument that an atheist has the same faith as a believer is an oldie, not so much a goodie. Atheists make no claim in the belief of a deity!!! Therefore, there is no required faith for them to have!

Atheists' position is there is no evidence for a deity.

The end.

Were there evidence, a good little atheist would evaluate said evidence and make a determination on "whether he wanted to believe the evidence or not." Assuming a lack of evidence had rendered him atheist, one would imagine an existence of evidence would make him a deist. Neither instance would require faith, though ... it would require evidence ... and that's the point. Evidence, not faith. Reality, not illusion.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 09:48 PM
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The possibility of free will, or even a soul, still doesn't necessitate the existence of a "God." In order to have an intellectual debate on the subject these ideas really need to be separated. Awful earth religions have clouded everything.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 01:53 AM
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How does lacking faith require faith? I think the lack of logic in this statement is about to make my brain explode.

Atheism is all about lack of evidence, it is a lack of belief, a lack of faith.




I disagree! The old argument that an atheist has the same faith as a believer is an oldie, not so much a goodie. Atheists make no claim in the belief of a deity!!! Therefore, there is no required faith for them to have!


It's just a simple matter of different points of view. For instance, some could not imagine the whole universe being here, with no creator before it. To them it would take a great deal of faith to believe such a concept. So then, your "lack of faith" could be misunderstood, as you and him are looking at things from a different angle. You see things he can't, and he sees things you can't. [So then since it takes a great deal of faith for them, they cannot understand how it could not take a great deal of faith for you]

It's just geometry. The 3-d universe we live in, also applies to thoughts not just physical objects.

LOL, ok i don't know if i'm making any sense. Just trying to help


EDIT: ok i'm sorry for so many edits, it's hard for me to be sure i'm being clear and not misunderstood when it comes to this particular subject.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by elcapitano75]

[edit on 25-6-2010 by elcapitano75]

[edit on 25-6-2010 by elcapitano75]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 04:13 AM
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I think that Christians believe in multiple gods. Christians are polytheists, and I'm not simply talking about the "Trinity."

The First Commandment states: "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." Different denominations phrase it differently, but the message is always the same. The First Commandment acknowledges that in Christian faith, there are other gods that could be held before God, but "shall not be," at least not by Christians.

Of course, everything I just said is bull crap and the reality is that Christians believe in just one god, but according to your logic if you talk about a god in a book you wrote, it automatically means you believe in them, ssssoooooo.....

Get what I'm saying?



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 04:14 AM
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I don't believe in GOD and I an atheist , so your post is GENERALIZING.

Generalizing is ignorant.

I don't agree with your post.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 05:05 AM
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I just want to get this straight.

You read Dawkins and got the wrong message.

You jumped in a lake.

You contacted a quantum physicist and wrote a book nobody takes seriously.

Seems to me you're doing all the wrong things

[edit on 25-6-2010 by traditionaldrummer]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 05:31 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 





Atheists don't have to. The lack of evidence for God speaks volumes - it doesn't mean God doesn't exist 100% for sure but it does mean there's no reason to believe in God. Why believe in something for which there is no evidence?

What if you had evidence. I don't think you even tell anyone.
You are allowed your views. The FACT is your views could simply pertain,
do to a lack of spiritual experience. You can't even tell for sure if the spirit is dead with in you. What is it that causes all the mockery in your posts .
You really try to make yourself sound correct in your own measure.
Just dosn't work for me.
The only alternatives you can think of to explain existence are even more absurd or can be made to sound so.



[edit on 25-6-2010 by randyvs]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by randyvs

do to a lack of spiritual experience. You can't even tell for sure if the spirit is dead with in you.


But that raises the question: what is a "spirit"? Where is the evidence for a spirit? How can it gain experience and die?





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