The Reason Conspiracy Theorists Can Never "Win" Against the Elite

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posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by theability
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Right now I think out of character for the US, would be for us to do something! Actually get together once again as a nation and demand Leadership from our elected officials. I haven't seen one session of congress in the last 20 years that hasn't started with, Raising their salaries!

PATHETIC!


I agree.

There is no way in Hell these bastards should get to vote their own pay raises.

Last time I checked this is the only "corporate structure" that does this criminal action.

Damn, if we were allowed to vote ourselves pay raises for our jobs, I would be making trillions of dollars per year, instead of living out of my car right now.

It sure as Hell must be nice to control your own paycheck from start to finish.


Originally posted by theability
Bugs is the best in the world when it comes to thinking in the fast lane with adversaries. If all leader thought like he did the country wouldn't be in the position it is today. Sad that a cartoon character has more moral standing than our elected leaders!


Sad indeed that the moral character of a cartoon character is stronger than any politician.

And this is something which will sadly be repeated until Government itself is abolished.

Not that I see that happening any time soon.

Moral Fiber

(Warning : Foul Language)


Originally posted by theability
Think about all the fear they generate through this one thing, if we don't have the money we cannot protect you.


Of course.

That's a state of blackmail through denial of doing their God-damned jobs correctly.

So, if we all performed our jobs on that basis, we might demand funding, or we're going to be a slacker, and sit on our keisters, until our demands are met?

Interesting concept there seeing as that's criminal fraud and malfeasance.

Dereliction of duty.

I can keep on going on with that but I won't, except to state Puppet Dictators are within that genre of commission of fraud and malfeasance, something I disagree with.

False Flag Operator, Become Sheep-Dipped Or Wolf-Dipped, and Become A Puppet Dictator?


Originally posted by theability
Sad that our system is so sick and corrupted. But I have seen that Democracy is the system that tolerates the most internal corruption of all government systems abroad.


It is not so much the system, but those within it, that see the flaws, and exploit them.

Instead of doing the right thing and closing the proverbial door, when it is seen open, they instead sneak in, and rob the house they could have protected.

That's exactly what 9/11 was all about, a Covert Intelligence Fund Raiser, period.


Originally posted by theability
The sad thing is, when a true threat presents itself, the system we have let slide into to place isn't going to protect anyone, except the elite that control it. Thus leaving the people to rot, while the few elitist are off hiding from the true threat somewhere else.

There is no police to serve and protect. There is not politicians that are for the people. Why doesn't the country see this and Demand Action?

Ahh that is right, American Idol right? Don't get me started on the Lie Box (TV)


That is correct to an extent, however I do see that some Police are there to protect and serve, however it is usually the local Law Enforcement, meanwhile Federal gives the biggest amount of leeway, and creates bureaucratic nightmares for anyone actually trying to do the right thing, because they rock the boat.

Intelligence has it that people within the F.B.I. were silenced prior to 9/11.

All because they actually saw the dots being connected and the targets were lined up.

Like ducks in a row.

Up Is Down-Pirates Of Caribbean At World's End- Jack Sparrow


By all means, if rocking the boat, will save lives by knowing information, save those lives.

Instead of letting those few people who suspected something was amiss to speak out, instead they were silenced, and therefore blood is on the hands of those suppressing.

How many lives exactly would have been saved if those people had actually done their jobs?


Originally posted by theability
Like that would ever ever happen. I look forward to the day that the money isn't worth a thing and the system falls apart, then moving on to barter and living in unison
maybe....


I do not look forward to that, but it is happening, right now as we speak.

This is why our economy is coming crashing down around America's ears.

To usher in the cashless society and money will be deemed worthless.

The next stage is the Amero one our national boundaries are erased.


Originally posted by theability
Ohh there doing it for them, taking the money and running.


That is correct, through the Bailout Package, our Treasury was robbed.

In a high-stakes bank robbery.

By those we trusted to protect it from being robbed.

Both Bush with Cheney and now Obama with Biden, one team opened up the door, the other is hiding that fact, and covering up the details as they pick up more money.

Like the trail of money left by stupid bank robbers, Obama is picking it up to keep, instead of turning Bush and Cheney in for that robbery, and our Treasury suffers.


Originally posted by theability
Again the reason why they powers do not want us to get along ever!


Of course, divide and conquer, racism, middle-class against the lower-class, elite verses average Americans, you name it and it is being done, whether we like it or not.


Originally posted by theability
The biggest threat to any government is the realization by the masses that, "Hey we can do this without the government, lets cut the cord!"


Like a nasty umbilical cord of a long dead baby pulled out of a dead woman.

Lady Liberty is dead and the elite power families killed her, and they are the aborted fetus.


Originally posted by theability
Again the corruption of giving raises as first order every term is sickening to say the least.

Being an elected official should be honorary not paid!


I agree with you 100% about that in they should work for free.


Originally posted by theability
The typical election these days is all about dirt on the other party and not about what truth about office is about, the People and the plans for the future country.


Correct.

In the political theater it is not the performance so much as how you can slit the other actors throats, and make them look bad, to upstage them and get all the glory.

Imagine if all of Hollywood were that way.

Oh wait, it is that way already, nevermind, and Government does it too.


Originally posted by theability
Like in Ohio when 340,000 dead people woke from the grave and voted?


That's right.

No one seemed to notice how the dead citizens voted as zombies from the grave.

Odd, is it not, that zombies count, more so than the actual voting populace.


Originally posted by theability
I guess no one gets the threat of don't ask the obvious, right?


Is that where Occams Razor comes into play?

The simplest answer is usually the correct one.

If the election is rigged then that person never truly got elected now did they?


Originally posted by theability
...And we need create a new pear harbor to instill this change, so that it won't take a century, but a few years to manifest.

The country is in hijack stasis.

The conspiracy continues


[edit on 25-6-2010 by theability]


That's it like a nail in a coffin.

Many people miss the finite details of the original Pearl Harbor.

How F.D.R. knew in advance, because the American Volunteer Group, was assisting Chiang Kai-shek, prior to Pearl Harbor.

The Purple Code was cracked and R.A.D.A.R. was in play.

So, F.D.R., martyred those men and women in Pearl Harbor, just like Bush (Cheney more likely) did on 9/11 to those innocent men and women in the World Trade Center.

It's a funny thing, martyrdom, is usually something the person dieing chooses.

Not those people who sell them out through murderous intent to make a name for themselves.




posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
I wouldn't say never. We are indeed divided and the level of unity needed to rise up so to speak and reclaim our power seems a pipe dream at the moment. However some unifying force or incident can change all that. A good example is WWII. Most of the country was divided or disinterested in that war until pearl harbor and then the country united to fight it.


Yes, but that event that united American people, was based upon a lie.

Within the conspiracy theory community that would not work, it would in fact countermand everything we hold dear, and make things far worse.

How would we as a community unite ourselves without making things worse?


Originally posted by hawkiye
Now I know much of the conspiracy associated with it but am just using it as an example of a unifying force or incident. Also indeed the powers that be have used thier own incidents such as the tonkin gulf or 9/11 to unite the people to go along with there plans in Vietnam and Iraq etc.


That is fine I understand you were using it as a prime example of the catalyst.

If we ever hope to do anything towards stopping the elite and Secret Societies, it will have to be something positive, not negative, which unites us together.

Like an ATS'er getting elected to office and hiring and entire staff of conspiracy theorists.


Maybe others would follow suit and all political offices would be filled with people who do their jobs right, and do not cover-up the mistakes, but admit to mistakes, and therefore do not begin a negative behavior pattern of abuse of power.


Originally posted by hawkiye
I have hope at some point America and perhaps the world will have some unifying event/s to help usher in a new age of peace and enlightenment. I believe it will happen but cannot say when or how. However there are many things in play right now that could potentially serve that purpose. Like the Gulf leak, the economy, and unemployment, foreclosures etc. Or perhaps a combination of all of it will hit a critical mass and enough people will unite. I know it seems unlikely at the moment but at some point that will change IMO.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by hawkiye]


Unfortunately, it might be Nuclear Winter, to cause us all to pause.

Because peace is a false hope indeed if our secrets unbind our entire society.

In my opinion you cannot save Earth by damning the people to Hell on the very planet we reside.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
There is actually a much more fundamental reason than the ones which have been gven so far.

From the postings on ATS, it is evident that a conspiracy theorist regards anyone who has power as a member of "the elite".
This means that it is impossible, simply by definition, that the elite can be removed from power. The elite will ALWAYS be in power, in the eyes of conspiracy theorists.
So the assumptions of conspiracy theorists make it impossible for them to believe that they have "won" against the elite. If they cannot believe they have won, they cannot win.




You are quite correct.

If wee see ourselves as the elite and do not take the power than are we not damning ourselves?

This is one of those disturbing behavior patterns I see as well.

If we gain power we are not necessarily corrupt, except if the motive, means, and opportunity to gain that power was corrupt itself, or the intent is lost in transition from doing the right thing, which turns into continuing the process of the same old song and dance, and politics as per usual, the apathy of dead people.

You cannot make a change if you do not engage the gears from neutral into drive.

Aerosmith - Same Old Song and Dance



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Woa. I just had an idea. Bare with me for a sec.

What if we had someone running for president and his whole deal was that he didn't tell you what his political goals were, instead he informed us that YOU, his voters, would decide the issues before the election process?

You could have a website that people could log onto and put up ideas for goals to be addressed. You could then have people vote for the best goals.

You could network on the streets to get the word out. Little business cards with brilliant logo's, trendy & powerful slogans, and of course the web addy.

It would empower the people! Rid us of our apathy !!

Thoughts?

[edit on 25-6-2010 by unityemissions]


Well, while I see that as an awesome idea, it would have to be hashed out a bit more.

Once you the person in office how would you enforce keeping them on track?

Immediate impeachment?

During the interim of electing a new politician we might be invaded, war declared on us, or too much dissension and division might ensue, as well as chaos.

Too much like voting for American Idol and no control measures in place.

Back to the drawing board.

But I loved the idea, it was awesome, it just needs some kinks worked out.


Originally posted by SphinxMontreal
"You could have a website that people could log onto and put up ideas for goals to be addressed. You could then have people vote for the best goals."

It would not work because 95% of the people would vote for what they want, instead of what they need. These are the same idiots who waste their lives watching mindless TV shows and prefer to have others think for them.

The elite know what they're doing. If you give morons too much power, in the end, they'll end up screwing it up for everybody. In fact, the same applies for intelligent people. Looks like we're doomed one way or the other. Oh well...


That is the bane of leadership people "wanting" things instead of "needing" them.

There would be far too many people voting instantly for printing more money.

And therefore through printing money devaluing all of what there is in distributing.

Talk about causing our own woes, too many people do not understand printing more money, or even counterfeiting it, actually destabilizes the current money out there.

And imagine how powerful that would be in the wrong hands.

For instance hackers, or crackers, criminal hackers, cracking into network.

Then everything would be screwed up and we'd have done it to ourselves.

The difference between a "need" and a "want" would have to be defined, first.

And which is supplied by Government and which is our own duty to supply next.

I see potential for this idea but far too many flaws and or loopholes open to interpretation.

And abuses of that system as well.


Originally posted by unityemissions
reply to post by SphinxMontreal
 


My naivety got the best of me . .

Oh well.



Not naivety.

Just not enough details.

More details, please, more details.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Thanks for this thread Spartan, it's a good place to stop and meditate on just what the hell we're doing here and how we come to define ourselves as a "community."

There is so much to respond to on the posts here and I am having kind of an ADD moment trying to figure which or what in which I might start with. I think this is going to take a rather late night response later on to formulate a coherent response.

I'm thinking about what kind of community we are (which could take a long time to respond to) and how a win might be defined, who are the "elite", a subject on which I have much to say, and what we do about the conspiracies we see or sense or suspect, other than talk endlessly about them. Much to say on each of these as well as on the whole definition of ideology.

I'm a historian by trade - a US labor historian, but with a substantial spin-off into Cold War history and thus foreign policy, defense and intelligence activities. When I was younger I was an avid reader of military history. So one thing I do is teach and I bring in more and more things inspired by ATS boards, and the drift of America into the hands of the MIC and Shadow Government (which BTW, has enough evidence around it's existence that I think it is beyond undeniable). I'm a lot older than I thought I'd ever get, having hit my teens in the late 60s (you know, never trust anyone over 30) and I have a pretty profound disability these days that kind of curtails any thoughts of engaging in armed uprising of any sort - besides I always thought it was the worst option. So educating college students about the history they were warped with in k-12, is a primary channel of activism, but so is politics and I don't sit around on my ass there.

This is not all idle chatter here at ATS, though I'm sure we have all found threads we thought were just whack. What we do here is really an information clearing house and our best recreation of elites do at Bohemian Grove in the smoking lounge, or at conferences in break-out sessions, congressional caucus meetings, etc. We share information and brainstorm ideas. We will never be a unified front and I don't think that's the point. I think we all need somewhere to fly ideas we have about various issues, maybe trial balloons for actions we do take, and to engage in a dialectic to check ourselves and how we make arguments. That's all to the good. But we are too diverse and span too many political ideologies and world views to form a political block or organization, except I think around the idea of more-or -less access to information and free exchange of ideas. So as long as we're still talking here, we have that as a win every day - though I think its tenuous and the value of it is hard to define.

I am lax and lazy about it and also quite on fire about it at times, but I do have a religion and enjoy my religious community, but they are same kind of terribly divided group of fractious people that we are here. Still, there's a reason community and communion have the same root. After a very traumatic night when I say my best friend executed as a personal witness, I asked my priest: "Where do see god?" This is too long a story to explicate here, but his answer was - though completely inadequate at the time - very resonant (in the long run). "We see god in people."

Put down the hackles on religion for a moment and just consider it for the metaphor. We see both the beauty and the all the things we hate, or find disturbing about god in each other - and that's why we are consumately social creatures. It's not all about survival. We huddle together to shield ourselves against forces that threaten us, but also to enrich our lives through interaction. We are interdependent and yet independent when we return to home alone or choose to go to another group, another thread. As much as people can be racist, or self-righteous (mea culpa) or stubborn and angry and divisive, we still come together for a kind of spastic and sometimes dorky communion here. So that's another we benefit if not win every day.

Over 50 years on this earth and the last thirty fighting the TPTB and I maintain the belief that we will get a win some day, and I mean a bit win. Maybe not a revolution but at last a renaissance in this country, although I believe we've hit the two minute warning and we're still down 10 points. The older I grow, the less it matters to me whether you're socialist or capitalist, liberal or conservative; I see strengths and weaknesses in each system and each set of beliefs. I come here to hear people make their arguments and for me to make mine and it sharpens my skills both as an academic and a teacher and an activist. You folks are a tough audience and that's as it should be; the truth is never easy and never easy to find in this increasingly repressive surveillance society.

So, be back later, but thanks to Spartan for this and thank your all my honored allies and adversaries and I apologize for times I've gone off on other threads. Maybe you deserved it and maybe not, but I shouldn't have done it. I enjoy your company, one and all.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Before I bug out, I just caught Aerosmith vid. Nice choice Spartan!!

(might have hit the wrong emoticon, but it was for the smile!) BTW, I got to babysit there lighting guys kid a few times some years ago backstage and met the whole band as a result. Cannot do better than that!



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by Amagnon

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by theability
 


Hell no - you are way off with this. The government has no right to secrecy AT ALL! There should be NO SECRETS apart from deployment and technical data of defensive capabilities - everything else MUST be known.

End Quote
(Sorry folks, I am still learning how to master technology and I do have much to learn navigating this site)

This response I have quoted made a valuable contribution to the OP's evidence of why things will remain as they are. In this one paragraph the responding author contradicted a statement with a "yes, but...". I am not singling the author out to be derogatory because he or she made a valuable contribution in support of the OP's claim: We are our own worst enemy.

I want to further point out how we are persuaded by our own beliefs to support a system that offers more hardships than benefits. The belief system we have right now is filled with "Yes, but.." and "No, but..." and that is our downfall as theorists. It is also the driving down force behind our cultural problems. Play on words is all that an ideal is when it is not or cannot be put into action. We are unwilling to be decisive in a black and white manner because, as the OP pointed out, we are not unified. We look for the shades of gray to make every action and every belief acceptable, the not so bad, the lessor evil, and we allow ourselves to be succombed by a false sense of accomplishment when we cast a vote in a democratic society.

How does one man command thousands of slaves? It is because the slaves let him command. The working class has the most power in the world but are either unaware of it or if they are aware of their power, they do not know how to use it or are afraid to use it. Thus, the reason we will never win is because our ideals are flowered with "yes, but" and "no, but" and that one practice allows a couple thousand men to command billions of slaves.

Just because something is thought does not mean the thought can erase the negative consequence of an action or create a benefit where no benefit exists in the physical world. We do not spend our time thinking of the physical world when we preach without practice.

I am not for or against religion and I really hate to even bring this topic up because it is going to be the focus of so many off topic replies; unfortunately, I can think of no other stronger support for the OP's post. Please read the rest before making a false assumption of where I am heading with this.

I know people believe and they encourage belief in others. Religion is a part of our cultural heritage and should not be dismissed on a whim because it offers valuable insight to the human belief system regarding human behavior and allows us to see how one man can command a thousand slaves. Thousands of years later, we are still practicing the same behaviors as our ancestors; the reasons following "Yes, but.." is the only difference. That is why theorists who uncover potential conspiracies will never win.

Knowledge is power if it works in unison with actions. Knowledge is defeated by "yes, but.." belief systems. Ignorance is bliss because the guilt that comes from knowing has its own negative consequences in a "yes, but" society. How many times have you had to force yourself to do something knowing it was not going to be a positive outcome and you used "yes, but..." to justify your decision.

Just because you are offered choice A or the lessor evil of choosing B does not mean you cannot hold out and choose C but we are programmed to believe our choices are limited and we are given the option after the fact of choosing a scapegoat.

The conspiracy is promoted by the slaves and the conspirators just ride the luxury wagon knowing the masses will never accept the power that every human being is born with. The terrible two's, why is it so terrible? Because that is the turning point in every human beings' social development. A toddler asks why and the parent has no answer other than because I said.

Well, the shoe is on the other foot. When we adults ask our master why, we are given that very same answer. That is just the way things are and we go merrily on about our business. Well...some of the "us" does while others want more clarification and that, my friends is what a conspiracy theorist does: compares the answers to the actions and never stops asking why. "Yes, but.." is not an acceptable belief system in a conspiracy theorist's culture.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by peggy m]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 04:30 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Star and Flag Spartan !

United we stand, divided we fall !

Only thru finding common ground and making a stand
and actually doing something that makes a difference
can we start to make major headway in the war against the NWO.

My plan is still to head for the hills because most are not awake,
but I have high hopes as the latest poll shows 48% of ppl
do not trust the government.

I hope that is not all just brainwashed Republicrats.

Again, great post and keep up the good work !

Good Luck to all the good ppl !



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by gravykraken
the question was raised in the OP:

"what is the point?"

for many of us i don't think there was a conscious decision to one day wake up a "conspiracy theorist". for most of us is was probably a slow progression toward what seemed to be the natural, dare i say logical path according to individual experience. would there then even be a point? maybe. words have been known to write as much history as war.


You are correct.

I cannot speak for anyone else other than myself.

And my entry into the consiracy theory genre was started at the age 6 years old.

I argued with my then very new stepfather that Government was good.

He emphatically disagreed.

And began to tell me tales of J.F.K. and Lee Harvey Oswald, the C.I.A.'s involvement in smuggling drugs, guns, and other stuff our of Vietnam, how that entire war was nothing but a smokescreen, he began teaching me about how Government, Military, and Law Enforcement worked.

Every time I was a wide-eyed kid trying to defend a Government I knew nothing about.

By the time Ollie North came along I knew exactly what the Hell that was about.

But somewhere in the last 31 years I got lost in those conspiracies.

Each time I unraveled another one like peeling a banana apart, using logic, books, and God-given common sense, I delved deeper and deeper.

And I got lost in the rabbit hole.

By the age of 13 a 45 year old man told me I was as cynical as a 30 year old.

This was because at the age of 13 I had a conversation with him, about Government, he was a co-worker of my stepfather (if memory serves me), and I blew him out of the water with every time I explained how the conspiracies work, because I had zero trust in Government.

Do I have any trust in Government now?

No.

But I'm not quite so cynical I could be pushed into being a patsy like Oswald.

Or even McVeigh.

I do see we as "conspiracy theorists" can actually "win".

It is however not through attrition sitting in a chatroom or forum.

Especially not one like Info Wars or AmKon, where violence and hatred runs deep.

ATS is one of the best conspiracy theory websites I have ever had the pleasure to be a member of and will remain for the entirety of life, my home.

But something has got to give and that to me is the people sitting down.

Stand up, stand up and fight, not through picking up guns, or speaking of violence, but through physically entering into politics and kicking them out.


Originally posted by gravykraken
for some of us this isn't so much about theory, but more about the sum of life experience. life experience has taught many of us that the police, courts, and government are not be trusted, thereby eliminating most political ideologies from prudence. there is no taking back what is seen after peeking behind the curtain. some creep up quietly and sneak-a-peek, some have the curtains drawn back for them, wide and dramatically.


I agree with you, you cannot un-see that which you see, but you can change it.


Originally posted by gravykraken
isn't it the same as asking the age old question: "why are we here, what is the meaning of life?"


In the over all existential meaning of life conspiracy theory style?

Certainly.

But how do we answer it when we're running around like knuckleheads?

3 Stooges - Disorder In The Court [Clip]



Originally posted by gravykraken
it's either a hobby, or your world view. as a theory, what we "believe" is minimized, placed in the realm of triviality. as an eye-witness, there is no theory behind political corruption. yes, it exists. isn't it important then? yes, BUT, many more aspects of life seem to take precedent. the bills must be paid, the kids must be fed, gotta change the oil, gotta fix the roof... all of that takes a back seat to what is shaking on capital hill. most people do not see how it all relates. they do not see that what is going down on capital hill (and back-room meetings) has every bit to do with how the bills get paid.


That is it exactly.

America Idol, Survivor, or "The Real World", or American Gladiator seem to hold much more legitimacy, whether it be to the main populace or us in the conspiracy theory world, where a program done by amateurs, for nothing more than gaining funding, through acting our lies, takes on much more importance than professional liars, doing nothing but gaining funding, through acting out lies, is more "entertaining".

So, therefore, we enter into a false reality, we ignore those bigots and bastards.

The ones running the country, the ones using our resurces, and lying in our names.


Originally posted by gravykraken
in general, people seem to know, or assume that all politicians are crooks and liars. still, come election time they pretend that voting matters and theirs is the man for the job. they have come to accept that it is in the job description. to be a good politico you better be a great liar. everyone seems to agree and consent. that is why it is allowed to stand. we tolerate it. it is accepted as "just the way it is".


That is it again, we would rather keep the same old evil, instead of trying to throw that evil out, through cowardice, ignorance, or ineptitude, we allow those "elites" to rule the world, instead of taking it back.

Taking it back by violence is out of the question as they have plans for that.

Remember, in the Dark Knight, the Joker said it best :

The Dark Knight - Hospital Scene (Two-Face and Joker) HQ


The difference here is that the Government is not our enemy, we are our own enemies, we defeat ourselves, by ultimately sitting on our collective keisters.

And instead of running for office, the excuses are "it's too hard", "the system is corrupt", "I don't have the time", or "I don't know how".

I say horse puckey.

We do not need Batman, the Joker, or even Government, we need to believe in ourselves, and quit sitting still and stagnant, and take action.

The correct action is not picking up guns, a block of C-4 in a hospital or Government building, but by actually becoming part of the solution.

If we are not a part of the solution, we are a part of the problem.


Originally posted by gravykraken
a good friend asked the same question: "why don't we get involved in politics?"


Sounds like an interesting person to say the least.


Originally posted by gravykraken
pushing for a fair handed agenda would be like asking for a magic bullet in the tie knot, or to be rubbed out by some "lone nut" gunman. thats why we don't do politics. we know that crusaders are made into martyrs, at best. no one really wants to be made an example of what happens to those that buck the system. i wouldn't say that fear is to blame as much as an overwhelming sense of insurmountability.


I would not say so much insurmountability but uselessness.

We see the point as being useless.

And thereby falter into actions like Timothy McVeigh or Julian Assange.

Which then makes us become the "lone nut" everyone is whispering about.

Arlington Road Trailer



Originally posted by gravykraken
besides, (imo) it takes a special kind of scum to even want to get involved with politics. for reasons stated above. at some point you WILL be made to compromise your principles, especially if they are firmly grounded in "doing the right thing". my friend went on to get involved with politics, starting out as a senatorial campaign worker. on more than one occasion he turned up at my house in the middle of the night in fear for his life because he somehow, in passing, managed to slight someone with powerful friends and vast resources. F that scene.


Well, that's where we will have to agree to disagree, to some extent.

I absolutely hate politics, because I know just how hard it is, and I know people will ask me to compromise my principles, something I am not willing to do.

But I know how to stand and fight and through knowledge of politics win.


Originally posted by gravykraken
even MLK was allowed to carry on for a good bit. it was okay for him to decry social injustice for minorities, and to preach racial harmony, but as soon as he spoke of the money changers in the temple... blam, we get a new holiday.


Too right.

Threaten to unhinge their money-train and they take action.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what has to happen, take away "their printing presses".

Meaning the illegitmacy of fraud committed to gain funding.

I'm watching for that "magic bullet" trust that I am.


Originally posted by gravykraken
which brings me to another point. at some point ALL policy flies out the window, and that is the point at which economics enter the picture. there is no law of the land when the highest law in the land is a sell out. even the lowest levels of the justice system are motivated purely by their potential as a resource for revenue.


And it all hinges on lies selling "safety and security" when none is given.


Originally posted by gravykraken
the OP is right. the elite have their unifying god. it serves them as well as they serve it.


That's right and that unifying "God" is money, power, and dirty little secrets.


Originally posted by gravykraken
even victory is shallow. a scandal is uncovered, it makes headlines, yet no heads roll.

great thread/posts SKL.



That's just it, cover-up, lie, obfuscate, rinse, lather, repeat.

All in a days work for Government.

In one of my prior posts I mentioned the cover-up of the J.F.K. assassination.

That's where America lost our soul.

Thanks.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by peggy m
 



just checking back in briefly, but I disagree with one you say: that slaves are maintained in slavery because they acquiesce to it. There's conflicting histories of slavery and a lot of different reactions to it, but the overall history of black slavery in the America's is one of coninuous resistance and the myth is that they were passive in their acceptance of it.

Check out the Many Headed Hydra as only the most recent book on African slave and cross-racial resistance to slavery, which was according to Linebaugh an Reddiker, a proto working class revolt in the America's from the first instance of Irish slaves being sent to the Caribbean down through Bacon's rebellioin in 1676. Resistance was never fully overcome at any point, but it was maintained by the exercise of various forms of POWER by American Elites in the South and British Elites in the Caribbean. And if you're interested in Pirates, it also includes a lot on the alternative world they built by choosing choice "C". It is by no means impossible.

As far as religion, if you were in any way inspired to comment by my post, I appeciate the thoughful response. I recently stumbled across this website which presents a different route taken by an evangelical splinter group that has a lot of good info intermixed with a lot of "end times" chiliasm, for sure. you migh get a kick out of the orientation though.

www.antipasministries.com...

I'm not an evangelical by association anymore, but I was raised by an old style evangelical minister who actually lived an incredibly ethical and politically neutral life within his church, though he was an "old fashioned" conservative, not a new religious right kind of guy. I took another route, but we made peace and found a lot of things in common eventually: disgust at American corporate behavior, separation of church and state, and and opposition to America's imperialism. He remained a lifelong republican, I split off from the two party system after 1976 and have only voted democratic twice, losing one and regretting winning the other. I will no longer choose the "lesser of two evils" - ever. This system needs fundamental change and we'll never get that, IMHO, through either of the parties.

BTW, the picture of Marx combined with Luke 16:8 "The Children of this world are, in their day, wiser than the children of light." particularly tickles me.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 05:49 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 



I agree.

There is no way in Hell these bastards should get to vote their own pay raises.
Last time I checked this is the only "corporate structure" that does this criminal action.
Damn, if we were allowed to vote ourselves pay raises for our jobs, I would be making trillions of dollars per year, instead of living out of my car right now.
It sure as Hell must be nice to control your own paycheck from start to finish.


I think this is a great place to start my reply of the Win of Conspiracy against the elite.

How can those elected officials have such gall, in which I might add: To amend there position is just in nature to warrant official status that separates those in charge from those that the official that is elected is suppose to represent?

This is the major downfall in political nature in the USA! Elected officials are in no way shape or form in favor of us, nor do they wish to be of the people. Once elected they "elevated their stature", as if being common wealth and of middle class society is unworthy of their attention!

Here is the beginning of the conspiracy and the basis of capitalizing upon those holes that we had discussed last night. It starts with these raises and then goes further from there.

Simply stated, the system as you had brought up creates the loop holes by allowances that have been abused by elected officials since the beginning of our country I am sure.

Thus, those involved in the countries affairs make the conspiracy system turn its wheels by giving self raises from the start.

Edit to add:


That's it like a nail in a coffin. Many people miss the finite details of the original Pearl Harbor. How F.D.R. knew in advance, because the American Volunteer Group, was assisting Chiang Kai-shek, prior to Pearl Harbor. The Purple Code was cracked and R.A.D.A.R. was in play.


I find anyone who says that America needs a new Pearl Harbor; not holding The USA best interests at heart.

IE the Constitution!


So, F.D.R., martyred those men and women in Pearl Harbor, just like Bush (Cheney more likely) did on 9/11 to those innocent men and women in the World Trade Center.

It's a funny thing, martyrdom, is usually something the person dieing chooses.

Not those people who sell them out through murderous intent to make a name for themselves.


And again why didn't Cheney or Bush testify about 911 under oath, no one is about the law, yet they side stepped around this, just showing us that the conspiracy is alive and well inside our White House!



[edit on 25-6-2010 by theability]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 



I am however asking exactly what is the point of being a conspiracy theorist and what your political ideology will do to achieve your goals of the "win" with the elites, because as far as I am concerned, this is not a game, and it is not a win or lose situation, but a situation where we have to come together or we literally are doing absolutely nothing but spinning our wheels.


After reading only the opening post, which was done extremely well, and none of the responses I can only come to one conclusion. I believe I touched on this at some point in these boards. Forgive me if it has already been brought up.

I believe we have to realize what it is we want to manifest in this world. We are here on this space ship called Earth and there is only one way off. Before we leave it I believe we have to come to grips with what it is we really want to achieve.

If we could have anything or accomplish anything in the entire world, what would it be? What would it be that you would want to manifest in this physical realm? Is it really that far out of our reach? I don't believe so.

A good thing to remember is that violence or hatred will not get you there.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Whoa, just hit the wrong key and a whole post went into the ether. Don't think I can take the time to reconstruct it. Just wanted to say that I don't think we're all just wasting time here, or that what we do or say in classrooms, forums or discussion boards of any kind is the sum of what we do. Resistance takes all kinds and comes in many forms and I think a lot of people here are politically active, but there is no unifying principle if one simply looks at what goes on ATS threads and never will be. That doesn't mean I'm not active outside of it.

To adopt the identity of "conspiracy theorist" is to adopt the label put on us by MSM, the government or the world at large who only sees us at work here. You know, I know, conspiracies are made by the powerful to keep or expand their power. That makes us conspiracy investigators and we have to propose theories or theses will work it out. I know you also know they're good at this and cover their tracks, but can never hide them completely because THEY aren't a unified they, but competing elites within the elite and mess up because conspiracies are hard to cover completely. So we go into the rabbit hole and always risk sliding all the way down. I use sites like this to keep me from doing that, while paradoxically sometimes they make it harder to keep from doing it. Complicated.

At any rate, we will probably never have a coherent political ideology to rally around here and always remain "strange bedfellows" at best, but I think that many of us have a "day job" which does involve political activism of different kinds and it takes all kind to beat back the initiatives of the the elites in times like these when they are particularly active and empowered. I think many here are feeling it's one of those times. So choose your weapons, whether it be non-violent resistance or armed resistance, but realize that there is no limit to what will come down on you as the MIC is in what very much looks like a consolidation phase. We don't need another national holiday to celebrate effective resistance by memorializing and neutering the leader or leaders behind it.

"I have a dream" can live forever because it's just a dream. Listen to King's Riverside Church speech in a class or on your own. That's the last thing they ever want you to do, because it will let you know how that dream was evolving and why he got killed.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 06:21 PM
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reply to post by ghostpigeon
 


I find no fault in your response to mine; however, I do think we are speaking of two very different belief systems. I use the term "slavery" to describe the working class. Yes I do know that harsher forms of slavery existed and those were accomplished through violence and direct force. Those humans only had to choose between suffering or death.

Regardless, if all those humans had chose death over suffering, that harsh form of slavery would not have been so profittable. It is that mindset that prevails. Humans will choose the lessor evil whether it is because physical death is the obvious alternate or the idea that something worse than being a working class slave will eventually come. It is a brainwash tactic that works for the majority and the few that rise against it are used as examples.

Our fears are what binds us to a master and that does include the harsher form of slavery. What does a person do when a real gun or the idea of a gun is pointed in their face when they just observed a fellow man brought down for standing up. In that case, slavery isn't the worst thing that could happen, or is it?



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by pjslug
1) The reason conspiracy theorists will never "win" is because 99% of them are nuts, plain and simple. They belong in a loony bin. They spend most of their waking hours trying to convince others that a select few are trying to take over the world, or that the world is coming to an end not only in their lifetime, but within the next few years. Of course this has been going on forever and the world still hasn't come to an end. Even if aliens did exist they are not coming to save you, because frankly you are not that important, nor worth saving.


Well, I'm with you about that, I must be in the 1% though.


I do not do the "doom" threads nor prediction ones and I stay away from "aliens" and "U.F.O.'s", because I usually debunk the entire genre.

There is no "end of the world tomorrow" although there are cons portraying that.

Usually at the hands of Government just to shake loose funding.


Originally posted by pjslug
2) They come up with tens of thousands of non-linear theories and make up evidence to suit their beliefs. Even when all evidence points to the contrary and you show them the flaw in their theory, they will try to convince you that they are correct by coming up with another nutty idea in an attempt to back up their theory.


Which is why I speak of books and evidence and ignore anything non-linear.

If I can lay out the policy, procedure, and protocol, I know what I'm talking about.

Everything is run by that in the world now.

Even the commission of major crimes by Government is set up that way.

Most of that though is about not having a papertrail.


Originally posted by pjslug
3) They use the term "The Powers That Be" to refer to so-called masters of the universe, which of course is crazy. These people can never be named because they don't exist. Even the people at the top of the food chain that can be named are not all interconnected in some secret web of organized deceipt.


That does depend upon the level of knowledge one has and can prove.

They are no more my masters than I can crap gold bullion.

I bow to no one.



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 06:55 PM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by Faiol
1 - conspiracy theories are just theories, if we had proofs it wouldnt be a theory


Correct, and applied with hypothesis, and evidence, it becomes reality.


Originally posted by Faiol
2 - its impossible to change a system by yourself


Of course.

Sort of an impossible mission all on one's own.

Key up the music from Tom Cruise's best movies.


Originally posted by Faiol
3 - most people in the world are clueless


To a degree I agree.

Politically speaking.

Of course.


Originally posted by Faiol
4 - most people in the world dont have access to the internet


I disagree.


Originally posted by Faiol
5 - most people in the world dont know how to use the internet


I agree to an extent, in regards to knowing exactly how to use it, other than e-mails and pornography, and chatting on Facebook.


Originally posted by Faiol
6 - most people in the world live in a box (mind)


Yep.


Originally posted by Faiol
7 - most people in the world take instructions from a book (religion)


I agree.

An instruction book is for someone who cannot think.

Preferably you can think and process without instructions.


Originally posted by Faiol
8 - most people in the world never used their brain to discuss


Correct.

Most people cannot differentiate between a civil discussion, and an argument.

Debating skills are lost almost in the world.


Originally posted by Faiol
9 - a lot of people are born with some genes that make you a psychopath


Understandably and most of them reside in the power elite families.

Like A.K.C. showdogs their inbreeding between families skews their world view.

This is why dogs biting their master are put down.

We are their masters not the other way around.

They need us not the reverse.


Originally posted by Faiol
10 - most psychopaths look for decision making positions (CEOs, gov ...)


See my reply to number 9 please.


Originally posted by Faiol
11 - people are just %$2, just look at journalists selling their soul, most horrible class


Yep.


Originally posted by Faiol
12 - DNA, recombination ...


See answer to 9 and 10.


Originally posted by Faiol
The reality is that most theories are just theories, its hard to find real evidence, and for the rest, the real things happening around us, most people dont have the capacity to understand these things and you need them if you want to change the system


I agree.

Without hard-core evidence nothing will change.

Positing on it will only go so far.


Originally posted by Faiol
www.youtube.com...
Just to add, we live in a world run by psychopaths, thats the only explanation to why nobody gives a $%# about the planet, about other people, their own future ... they just care about control, since they dont feel anything


See number 9, 10, and 12.


Originally posted by Faiol
www.youtube.com...
People here want to believe that there are secret organizations controlling our world, or aliens doing it, the truth is that DNA recombination makes some bad people, and there is nothing we can do to stop it, well, we could do something if the people understood, but most people cant think, so its impossible right now

Our only hope is the development of the internet ...


We have that but it will take removing all roadblocks that try to shut it down.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Hey, thanks for the OP shake. You probably are in one of the bad days,
i guess.


My POV is that we are not human, human is the medium throught the
unit of conscience operates in lower base function...

to learn! Earth is one of the hard schools on the cosmic block, and
yes, TPTB is at the top of the negative polarity, and most of us are
still learning and deciding where our spirit polarity should go...

Integration with all that is... VS
Desintegration of others for my ego to stand out.

The spirit requires this hard learning, and so there is no intervention
from the higher evolved positive polarity beings...

why? Because most of us play the victim card and when its our time to
show what we learn, we call the boss card with a smile.

There is this quote from someone on the forum that sums up
my feeling towards freedom (positive polarity):



How do you rule over the masses when they believe they are all God? How do you divide and conquer when all beings believe they are one? How do you have a wealthy elite and starving poverty when each person sees another as an other-self, an other expression of the same fundamental infinite divine?


I see this push of negativity giving great lessons for those who
can perceive the gigantic contrast from the freedom they want and
believe is possible.

This is worth a lifetime here for the spirit.

People are NOT innocent. They know exacly what needs to be done,
but by their current spirit polarity (in wich they aligned here) that goes
against their purposes of "betterment" instead of experiencing oneness
with everyone and everything.

My point: while earth still aligns with negs, there will be no changes, but
that same alignment causes great lessons to be learned from free
spirits, that can and will reverse polarity for this big mother.


Peace, freedom and conscience!

RP



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by havok
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Good gracious that's alot of information to sort through!
Good job though, with all the well presented subjects.


I read as many books as I can get my hands on and pass it on.


Each and every time post a Wikipedia link it is not to claim where I got the information.

It is the secondary source, because the original source was a book, thereby I am giving people an example of where they might dig deeper.

People will dig for water in whatever well they choose to though.


Originally posted by havok
Just to sum up everything for you...
Here's my idea:
Kill Cable. Kill the television.
Get to a news station legally and broadcast on a nationwide network about everything related to what's going on behind the curtain. Seem the only way people will listen is if it comes from the mouth of the beast (television).
This is a possible scenario. It can happen.


But, but, what about all those fun things American's want (note my sarcasm)?

Like American Idol and Simon Cowell (sarcasm)?

Chris Daughtry - American Idol - Renegade HD (12)


Or Survivor and getting voted off the island of the week (again with sarcasm)?

Survivor: Hereos vs. Villains - Amanda Before Tribal Council


And there's the benefit of "Big Brother" (sarcasm, again)?

Big Brother | Emma's In The House!


Dear God, what a waste of time, nothing but programming, to program you into submission, to make sure your television becomes your "idol"?

I could have sworn there was something about idolatry in the Bible?

Oh yes, there is, one of the "Commandments" I believe.

No, I am not religious, but educated in knowing dogma verses bureaucracy.


Originally posted by havok
BUT:

So many people are still glued to the television that they think normalcy consists of what new talent Amerika has, or what new Idol to worship. Purely pathetic and ignorant. Then there is sports.
Don't get me started on music and entertainment.

Just all distractions from what's really taking place.


In Rome it was called bread and circuses.


Quote from : Wikipedia : Bread and Circuses

"Bread and circuses" (or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses) is a metaphor for handouts and petty amusements that politicians use to gain popular support, instead of gaining it through sound public policy.

The phrase is invoked not only to criticize politicians, but also to criticize their populations for giving up their civic duty.

In modern usage, the phrase has become an adjective to deride a populace that no longer values civic virtues and the public life.

To many across the political spectrum, left and right, it connotes the triviality and frivolity that defined the Roman Empire prior to its decline and that may contribute to the decline of modern society.


The more things change the more they stay the same.

In Rome it was free bread and gladiators with the Christians before lions.

And now it's Welfare and the Super Bowl.

Pathetic, people watch this stuff, meanwhile wonder why Congress passes laws we do not want, and whine once they are enacted against us.

Think of Rex-84 and you will know what I mean.


Quote from : Wikipedia : Rex-84

Rex 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984, is a plan by the United States federal government to test their ability to detain large numbers of American citizens in case of civil unrest or national emergency.


Iran Contra Coverup: 1 of 8


Iran Contra Coverup: 2 of 8


Iran Contra Coverup: 3 of 8


Iran Contra Coverup: 4 of 8


Iran Contra Coverup: 5 of 8


Iran Contra Coverup: 6 of 8


Iran Contra Coverup: 7 of 8


Iran Contra Coverup: 8 of 8


American's fell asleep at the wheel which is why anything like that got passed.

If not for the foul-up of Oliver North and him falling on Reagan's sword, we might never have known about that, unless people were more aware.

It's time to quit taking the No-Doze and falling asleep while driving, America.

Which is why I encourage people to read, get involved, change the laws.


Originally posted by havok
So. We could 'win' if the people collectively gathered in mass numbers (millions) and took over what has been robbed from them.
Their minds.


That's about the only thing we might take back now legally.

Meaning of course, Government has it on the law books, under Rex-84.

They can point to other Government's that we are out of control and breaking the law.

Get involved within politics and change the laws and unravel them.


Originally posted by havok
Let's face it though. People don't want to fight.
Complacency rules. Obesity is killing our mindset.
We need numbers and a month long nationwide strike.
But then we get into FEAR and why people won't do anything.
They are scared.
Scared to lose everything they've worked so hard for.

Great job!



Apathy, obesity, watching the "boob tube", it is all in American's blood.

Fear is the biggest motivator, but do not let violence come to mind, the mind is more powerful than the sword and or gun, and we can outsmart them.

By doing what they fear we really will do, step up to the platform, and onto a soap-box, because they have no plans, to stop that with everyone doing it.

The Science of Fear: Why We Fear the Things We Shouldn't--and Put Ourselves in Greater Danger




Amazon Review :

“The Science of Fear elegantly weaves academic research and everyday experience, exposing the secrets of emotion and reason, and the essential roles they play on our lives. An excellent book.”
--Dan Ariely, author of New York Times bestseller Predictably Irrational

“Where writers such as Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Francis Wheen have been content largely to enumerate the errors of less rational men and women, Dan Gardner has collated part of what we need to diagnose the problem. If skeptics spent less time moaning about the propensity of their fellows to believe what they want to believe and more time asking why they do so, there might not be such a crisis of reason in the West today.”
--The Independent

“Terrific. Exceptionally good… Has the clarity of Malcolm Gladwell.”
--Evening Standard

“Excellent…. analyses everything from the media’s predilection for irrational scare stories to the cynical use of fear by politicians pushing a particular agenda…. Gardner never falls into the trap of becoming frustrated and embittered by the waste and needless worry that he is documenting. A personal anecdote about an unwise foray into a Nigerian slum in search of a stolen wallet disposes of the idea that the author is immune to the foibles he describes. What could easily have been a catalogue of misgovernance and stupidity instead becomes a cheery corrective to modern paranoia.”
--The Economist

“Those of us who spend our careers in research hope that someone like Daniel Gardner will come along and bring our findings to the world in an engaging and scientifically accurate way. Thank you, Dan! Some books can change the world. This one might.”
--Paul Slovic, Professor of Psychology, University of Oregon, past President of The Society for Risk Analysis

“Fear needs a science and Daniel Gardner offers a fast-paced tour of what the most interesting researchers have revealed. The number of things that you don't need to be afraid of is encouraging, but finding out why we still do fear them anyway is fascinating. Essential reading for anyone interested in the social mistakes we make everyday--and how to fix them.”
--Tyler Cowen, author of Discover Your Inner Economist

“An invaluable resource for anyone who aspires to think clearly.”
--The Guardian “Elegantly summarises the results of psychological research … Gardner is forensic in his dissection of bogus claims in advertising and politics, just as he is lucid about the science explaining why they work.”
--The Observer

“A fascinating insight into the peculiar and devastating nature of human fear, while training the reader to be ever wary of misleading media announcements.”
--The Telegraph


It sure makes you wonder if people listen to what's going on or bury their heads.

Ozzy Osbourne - War Pigs



War Pigs Lyrics:

Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of death's construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'til their judgement day comes
Yeah!

Now in darkness world stops turning
Ashes where the bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees the war pig's crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing spreads his wings
Oh lord yeah!


[edit on 25-6-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jun, 25 2010 @ 10:57 PM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 





its funny you say james earl ray didnt act alone, because he didnt. ive read books on how he was spotted getting into a police cruiser right after the king assassination.





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