Please Analyze My Contrail Pictures

This is my first submission of such nature. I see odd things in the sky all the time. I was able to capture one of these events on my phone camera.

The area pictured in the sky has high air traffic. JFK is about 12 miles East, LaGuardia about 15 miles North. Newark about 25 miles West. Floyd Bennet Field is 8 miles South. I see and hear all kinds of aircraft all the time. Based on my observations over the last few decades, I've come to know the patterns for the different airports, and how the sky has changed. I notice when there are aircraft up there out of place. Which brought this event to my attention.

Picture 1 and 2 are looking to the South, opposite sides of the street.
Picture 3 is looking North
The first and second picture are of the same thing.
The third is of a plane in motion.
I saw the plane that did Item 1A. I will assume it is the same plane.







My question is, what would cause a contrail to persist in a segment as depicted?

There are other interesting things in the shots, but such things have been "explained" here and other places before. Personally speaking, seeing is believing. All I know, based on what I see is.
A typical event: Strange clouds show up in the sky. Planes come up and draw lines. Then more strange things. ie: Holes open in the clouds, like a drop of detergent in a pan of oily water; the lines in the sky move as if grids in the sky were pushed over.

I don't want to get into a tiff over whether they are real, it's just jet exhaust, yada yada. I just want to focus on the immediate question, just as there are reasonable answers to the whole controversy at hand, I have not found reasonable answer to this question.

I saw the jet output this segment, as I have many other times. Why would a jet do that? Is there a technical reason, procedure etc.


Can't find all right now the pics. These are for those who like looking at this kind of stuff.








Sorry, didnt think this post thru all the way ..


[edit on 23-6-2010 by mantic]
brb - uploading pics and linking

[edit on 23-6-2010 by mantic]

[edit on 23-6-2010 by mantic]

[edit on 23-6-2010 by mantic]

It could be that the this is an area at the mid point between 2 area of opposing wind direction, or just an area of still air, thusly taking longer to disperse.

I have set jets at hogh level before, where the exhaust trail is broken like Morse code --- ---- -- - --- - - - -- -- etc.

One train of though could be dur to warmer columns of air rising at mid levels of flight, warming the air just enough for the exhaust not to condense.

There's a couple of reasons actually

1. There was a pocket of moist air descending along the planes flight path, the other contrail is not necessarily at the same heigh as the first one. In fact its unlikely that they are. Even if there are metres between the planes altitude, the humidity can vary greatly.

2. There is rising dry warm air pushing through the layers, causing mixing to not occur in isolated spots. Rising air does not happen at a constant. In other words, it does not rise as a layer covering the entire sky. It does however rise in cone shapes and columns, which is the reason why contrails have breaks in them in some instances

[edit on 23/6/2010 by OzWeatherman]

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
There's a couple of reasons actually

1. There was a pocket of moist air descending along the planes flight path, the other contrail is not necessarily at the same heigh as the first one. In fact its unlikely that they are. Even if there are metres between the planes altitude, the humidity can vary greatly.

2. There is rising dry warm air pushing through the layers, causing mixing to not occur in isolated spots. Rising air does not happen at a constant. In other words, it does not rise as a layer covering the entire sky. It does however rise in cone shapes and columns, which is the reason why contrails have breaks in them in some instances

[edit on 23/6/2010 by OzWeatherman]

I want to suspect that, but I saw the plane(s) that output them.
About 15-20 minutes apart between first and second, maybe 30-40 minutes in the past when the shot was taken. Plane(s) appeared to me to be at same altitude.

double reply post

[edit on 23-6-2010 by mantic]

You have airplane exhaust trails, regular clouds, and hail clouds. Analysis done.

Your ok, just as long as your not near the ocean where BP is spraying dispersants still to this day in the middle of the night. BECAUSE, if you are you might end up with lung problems, BREATHING. Alot of people are complaining of burning in the lungs and breathing problems. HOPE YOUR FAR AWAY FROM THAT AREA. peace.

Originally posted by mantic
I want to suspect that, but I saw the plane(s) that output them.
About 15-20 minutes apart between first and second, maybe 30-40 minutes in the past when the shot was taken. Plane(s) appeared to me to be at same altitude.

See, your operative word there is "appeared". Planes rarely fly at the exact same altitude. Its hazardous due to the increased likelihood of collisions. The only time that they do this is usually on final approach.

And in that time frame, it is possible for warm, dry air to rise to a significant height. Thats how convective clouds and pulse thunderstorms work.

Its a classic Chemtrail formation of a man made cloud the last image you OP have posted.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Originally posted by mantic
I want to suspect that, but I saw the plane(s) that output them.
About 15-20 minutes apart between first and second, maybe 30-40 minutes in the past when the shot was taken. Plane(s) appeared to me to be at same altitude.

See, your operative word there is "appeared". Planes rarely fly at the exact same altitude. Its hazardous due to the increased likelihood of collisions. The only time that they do this is usually on final approach.

And in that time frame, it is possible for warm, dry air to rise to a significant height. Thats how convective clouds and pulse thunderstorms work.

I try to use choose my words wisely. Thanks for the insight. It concurs with what I believe can be a probable explanation.

Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
Its a classic Chemtrail formation of a man made cloud the last image you OP have posted.

Wrong. That is a mammatus, or hail cloud.

en.wikipedia.org...

Yup, stop start contrails aren't too uncommon.

Here's a shot of one I took literally in the middle of nowhere:

Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
Its a classic Chemtrail formation of a man made cloud the last image you OP have posted.

No, it's a known cloud formation, mammas.


Nothing artificial or "chem" about them.

reply to post by mantic


Hello mantic, I'll see if I can help on your voyage of discovery.

Firstly: Your description of location doesn't make sense, that is, the distances and direction you say from the three major NYC airports.

It won't matter, though...since because you're seeing contrails, this means that ALL of the flights are just passing by, and are not departing, nor arriving, at EWR, JFK or LGA.

For the record: Using JFK as a reference, EWR is located about 20 NM WNW (magnetic direction ~290 degrees). LGA is about 11 NM NW of JFK, on ~345 degrees magnetic.

So, basically you cannot be 25 West and 12 East of JFK, at the same time!

Never heard of "Floyd Bennett" airfield, but looking it up, it is an historic site, located at Raptor Point, in Brooklyn?? Doesn't matter either, just interesting....


OK, on to your voyage...go to www.skyvector.com... to start.

This is an online source for aeronautical navigation charts, which will help us.

Let's use JFK, since it's biggest...type in KJFK in box, upper left, and click 'Go'.

What comes up should be the 'New York Sectional' chart, and it will be centered on JFK. (Chart is oriented to TRUE North, as indicated by the latitude/longitude grid lines. ALL courses and directions, to include the blue 'compass rose' circles showing a full 360 degrees are in relation to MAGNETIC North)

The Sectional (and very similar 'TAC') chart is for VFR use. It is best for you to orient your location, because it shows land/sea boundaries and such, and other landmarks.

Once you know where you are, in relation to the aeronautical charts, you can continue to....the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) 'High' altitude charts.

Click on the tab that's labeled "Enroute H-12" These are printed (when seen in reality, not online) to a scale that covers more distance, per inch, than the VFR charts...giving a "bigger picture" overall. Useful, since jets at altitude cover ground very fast, between 6 to 8 miles per minute.

(Note that, just like 'Google Maps', you can change scales, zoom in/out).

Those thick black lines, all that are numbered with a "J-" followed by a number (or sometimes two or three) are the 'Jet Airways'...the routes normally followed by jets travelling overhead. They won't ALWAYS be exactly on the Airways, though...ATC can 'vector' them off, for weather or traffic avoidance, or they are granted a more direct routing, to a point farther along on their flight plan, etc.

NOW, you can get a sense, overall, of where airplanes may be coming from, and going to, as they pass overhead the NYC area...North, South, East or West, or any angle in between.

Delta Airlines from, say, Atlanta to Boston (or vice versa). USAir from Providence to Charlotte. Etc, those are examples.

ALSO, flights going out, or coming in, from the Atlantic, to any number of destinations, as well. And, don't forget Canada, and flights to/from there as well.....

Finally, to see the action "live", you can go to flightaware.com...

I've given the link, centered on JFK. Expand the view....Now with your new-found knowledge, you can see how the airplanes passing by are routed.

Hover your mouse over the airplane icons. Blue icons are going in/out of JFK (or whatever airport selected). Green are for others.

NYC is very, very busy, so you'll see a lot of airplanes on flightaware, going in/out of LGA and EWR,...at low altitudes, and THEY aren't forming contrails. Keep searching, though, and you'll spot the passersby, eventually.

HINT: The airplane altitude is shown on second line, first numbers...just add two zeroes. Example, "40" = 4,000 feet above sea level. "230" = 23,000 feet, etc. You can see the departure/destination airports at the bottm of the data blocks. Look for flights passing by, at high altitude.

~~~~~

Should add, any of our resident meteorologists can help with upper-level atmospheric condition readings, to determine relative humidity and temperatures.


[edit on 24 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by mantic

 

Hello mantic, I'll see if I can help on your voyage of discovery.

Firstly: Your description of location doesn't make sense, that is, the distances and direction you say from the three major NYC airports.

It won't matter, though...since because you're seeing contrails, this means that ALL of the flights are just passing by, and are not departing, nor arriving, at EWR, JFK or LGA.

For the record: Using JFK as a reference, EWR is located about 20 NM WNW (magnetic direction ~290 degrees). LGA is about 11 NM NW of JFK, on ~345 degrees magnetic.

First, thanks for the reply and resources.

The direction and distance are general, gained from Google Maps. I am in Brooklyn NY, Grand Army Plaza can be used as a general reference to my location. the 25 miles west of JFK is an error, should be Newark International.

So, basically you cannot be 25 West and 12 East of JFK, at the same time!

Never heard of "Floyd Bennett" airfield, but looking it up, it is an historic site, located at Raptor Point, in Brooklyn?? Doesn't matter either, just interesting....

Floyd Bennet is a historical airport. NYPD and other agencies use it as a Helicopter Base

OK, on to your voyage...go to www.skyvector.com... to start.

This is an online source for aeronautical navigation charts, which will help us.

Let's use JFK, since it's biggest...type in KJFK in box, upper left, and click 'Go'.


[edit on 24 June 2010 by weedwhacker]

Again thanks for the resources. I will check them out. Based on my limited knowledge, observations, I can say there are landing patterns over head. I imagine this will tell me. This should also help me determine what lies under these paths (land mass, water etc) and if such can effect air conditions above them.

reply to post by weedwhacker


I just looked at those sites briefly. The first has TMI for me to process right now. The second is what it is an very interesting as well. I never realized the amount of traffic up there in this area. After a brief perusal, I can see the flightpatterns that travel overhead.

Thanks again.

Guys these are freaking regular clouds. RELAX.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by SubPop79]

I like your mammatus cloud pic. They're rare. I've only ever seen them in photos.

reply to post by mantic


I'm not a weather specialist or air traffic controller, but I was raised on and near SAC Air Force bases and have seen a few contrails in my day. What my PC could display I don't see anything unusual here.

Keep your eyes open and let us know!

Originally posted by wigit
I like your mammatus cloud pic. They're rare. I've only ever seen them in photos.

When they are very pronounced, it is an erie feeling to be under them. Makes me feel slightly claustrophobic. I have seen them maybe 3 times I can remember. That pic is from last year around this time. Was a strange day. really red sunset, crazy thunderstorm, then the clouds.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by mantic]