Haven't said anything "wacky" in a while. Ok here's one.

Thinking and conversation are identical in that they both branch out. You then feel a sense of loss over a point or a funny joke that "could have" been and you feel a loss over the moods from that linear stream of thought that branched out and takes on a whole new feel. You feel loss over the analytical process which branched from its linear path and you forget what you were analyzing and its perceived importance in that moment, which from even the next moment seemed unimportant yet there is a nagging urge to go back to that path, the thoughts, the subtle feeling. Yet also you want to explore the other routes and feel a loss when the motion of thinking and conversation stays its course. So many desirable outcomes.

Always branching off, you'll never stay on the same LINEAR route, so embrace each new one and let go of the old. With this realization you know the current moment you are experiencing is all you got and that your mind is shifting configurations continuously, let go of the PAST. It's not coming back. The moment you are experiencing now will inevitably enter a new moment, with its own configuration. Is it a game of discipline..maintaining the linear direction or the nature of the mind itself, of the reality we perceive as things constantly move about and change configuration before our senses.

"Being" is the trick. When you simply just try to "BE" you are becoming the natural self that shifts its configurations from your thoughts and actions. There's a good chance many of you have never realized a certain degree of natural balance. Hint: "Chakra meditation" is a good method, understanding the layers and nature of the mind and understanding how it shifts. It seems impossible to simply "BE" as long as we live, for we take part of the flow of life, we choose actions.. we choose actions to counter other actions. Everything you do is symbolic and metaphorical for a sense of balancing yourself when really the balance is readily available from non-action so long as there is non-thinking. For example... trying to simply be...until your body is uncomfortable laying there or is hungry..the control you allow over you puts you deeper into the experience of life where balance is achieved through experience: eating, talking, achieving, moving etc. Wisdom, discipline, endurance are all experiences of the mind and of life as coping mechanisms for our inability to be fully in control, to have total self-realization.

And so..

There comes a time where such things feel old and played out, when a moment arrives and you have a choice to let it get out of control..anger..fear..instinct, mechanisms you deem beyond your control, just let go of the mind, don't engage it, don't analyze under false pretenses. If you have a secure sense of capability and sincere understanding of your intentions, you gain more control over the moment.

Discipline is there to replace wisdom, which in turn is there as part of the program called life where things are there "to know" as long as we "live". With understanding your current experience there is less need for discipline as there is an understanding, which leads to a natural acceptance and if desired, chosen action.

The key thing here is there is NO resistance. There is no suppression of urges, desires, emotion. What comes forth is natural and the other variety of responses seem not in your interests or understanding given what you now know and KNOW what you want.

A conversation just distracted me and I lost my point, which was the opening point of this post. I'm not going to let my mind get itself worked up when I don't need it to. The trick is being in control, or failing that and all this mentioned, then just being at total acceptance with it all, sort of the other aspect of maintaining the sense of peace.. with the wisdom accepting the struggles as they come in their varieties becomes more natural and clear, logical. You maintain your peace, your control, which is a logical and emotional desired state.

For me, it all comes down to the control I want, thoughts that seems played out I no longer want to entertain or even naturally would. Should a lack of control arise and I feel anger I remind myself of what i've learned and what I want. The same with frustrations of all kinds. When fears arise I acknowledge where it comes from yet also acknowledge again, my intentions, what I want. So the fear is tossed away for the desired risk. If I choose, I have methods to turn the fear into understanding and diminish its power to knock me out of control from that certain experience.

Bla bla bla...

"Being in the moment" means basically keeping in control, and developing that. Using the mind as an experiential tool rather then be a slave to it. Try meditating, clear the mind, you'll half-expect this to mean you're "brain-dead" when the thoughts cease but the thoughts that do come are clearer, focused and you feel one step closer to you're natural balance, which once you become aware of this, it can take on great importance to your "mind". Again, another experience of being out of control as you have an inner calling to reach out for more control, its like one in the same.

ever-branching, ever-changing, as life's events unfold, the minds configurations shift, point is:

you have a choice of how much you wish to struggle.

Don't underestimate your ability to EVOLVE through life's experiences.

um.....

I'm sorry... You were saying something?

reply to post by NorEaster


I think you got what I was saying, as weird as it may seem to some.

Now lets put it behind us and find some deeper inner peace.

Originally posted by CavemanDD
reply to post by NorEaster

 

I think you got what I was saying, as weird as it may seem to some.

Now lets put it behind us and find some deeper inner peace.

Oh, I was just having some fun. Seemed like the perfect reply at the moment.

reply to post by CavemanDD


OK, so I admit that I had to read your post a few times to fully grasp it but once I did, I must admit that I am impressed.

Thank-you, I needed that..

That was great. Wacky great. But not all that wacky really, when you think about it. Is thinking just a multibranching conversation with yourself?

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
That was great. Wacky great. But not all that wacky really, when you think about it. Is thinking just a multibranching conversation with yourself?

hell yeah.

Here's a thought, if you knew no language what would thinking be like?

My guess is it would be perceived just as a total lack of control. New objects and colours and ideas entering the mind and branching off without the commentary to go along.

The point is, you decide what has a point to you and all that, you live life and its chosen themes, but theres an underlying simplicity to the release from the struggle.

Took me x amount of years to figure that out, but again with the gradual realization or breakdown of the stubborn barrier... the significance increases.

There was a time where i'd want to discuss lots of things and give opinions on different topics but they are topics to me and nothing more. The only thing I have to say to anyone really is "hey man... relax!" And if I posessed any perceived wisdom, i'd replace all I have to say with that. I should write a book called "Relax man"

You get all the way to page 500 to realize you could have just relaxed yourself on page 1 but your mind wanted to struggle with itself some more.



I think its amusing what people complain about, but I don't blame them, i've been there, another helpful tool... I can relate..thus I can forgive, and i understand we are all not on the same page and see things the same way... when it comes down to it all you got to work with is, yes, you guessed it.

Interesting take on the NOW method, Cave.

I guess the antithesis of the zen moment is the current trend of
multitask things to death, do not observe things, but have the best
fast reaction that is rewarding to the self or this egomaniac society.

In other words... being human all the time.

I investigated, not long ago, a german thinker: Heiddeger. He stated that
people (dasein) oftenly remain in idle talk mode, wich is short for "the sake
of just conversation", never getting an authentic thought, just talking and
pseudo-understanding the object of interest.. then there is this curiosity
driven idle talk that fills the dasein mind giving him the false sense of a life
"genuinely live".... and last effect on the dasein mind, or the "fallen state"
is ambiguity, in the sense that authorities know best and that investigating
goes against his own mode of curious idle talk, that is so easy to live
with their egos.

Yeah. Nature and spirit integration are adversarial I guess. Thats why
so many STS people dont really know the game they are getting into.


Wacky enough for ya?


[]´s
RP

reply to post by NorEaster


It was perfect in that MOMENT, you're at it again with the jokes, you're killin' us here. ha, i'm jokin, but you see what i mean, whether you are doing it intentionally or not your responses further highlight the topic.

So it was a perfect comment in that moment, but the moments gone, it was a good one,the mind configured itself to it at its contentment, further putting itself out of balance because of its desire to experience a deeper sense of "good moments".

Its funny how we think the "good" times... the happy ones are any different from the bad ones. Try having only good times without bad times and the good times won't be as good... without the bad there is no struggle, no achievements - very good moments!. To give one example. Its back to the yin yang, whats one without the other?

But the good and the bad they are still just configurations that shift your mind even more and keep you from being fully aware if that is the goal in mind, the mind drifts in the experience of "delightment" or "fear" at new DISTRACTIONS of life.

So lets take it one step further.

One guy said the mind is live a conversation with yourself.

What is life then? An experiential playback of the mind? "I want to go over there" - *walks over there*.. "I want to do something dramatic, romantic, aggressive, violent, mischievous, funny" and so on.

Both you and I know we are capable of choosing whatever job or experience we want. Our minds just have certain inclinations they want to see played out. And well if you say "i dont like my life or job etc" Maybe you're missing a few details of whats keeping you there.

It all seems like distractions to me. I mean i'm playing a role of the mind, but at the end of the day I don't care if I die, which seems to be the big one for people... I have ideas what happens when "that" happens.. and its really not a concern. I can't contemplate non-existence and if I die i'll probably still have the same problems I give myself.. and if I CAN non-exist.. CAN you NON-CAN? lol... if that scenario played out, well then....

it really doesn't matter what I do either way to me. All just choices, all stuff. I take the good the bad and the distractions, but underlying it I can't help but learn something about myself, which kind of leads to this strange unfoldment of ideas!

To sum up everything in a yin yang type relationship I feel I could. A concept that ties up all loose ends of reasoning for anything.

NEXT.

reply to post by CavemanDD


Thinking without language would be in pictures. Sometimes I make myself do that at night when I close my eyes and I'm trying to sleep. It works. It's getting easier too. You can do it. I'm sure it has a name but I don't care. It's also just being, without words.

Funny, I learned all this very recently myself...the just being thing? Few years now, maybe. It came out of a lot of realizations intersecting all at once. Like planets aligning or something.I wander around now and say just BE. People ask me where the bee is but I just laugh. It is a release from the struggle. Sorta peaceful too.

Oh, and now I can do it both ways too, engage or disengage, shift out of one mode and into another, sorta like changing clothes, and it's great. Sometimes you have to do that. Engage. But when I don't have to I no longer have to, you know? It is great. I love it. And I think you live longer too.

Anyway...enjoyed the thread. I'll look for more of your wack. I'm giggling now because I have no idea if anything I said made any sense. But I don't care.

I'm not a guy but it's okay. It doesn't matter...it just made me laugh.

[edit on 23-6-2010 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by RobertPaulsim


talking just for the sake of idle talk.

Thats like feeding into more distractions and giving up on discipline.

People are given a MOMENT away from it all and they fill it with something, read a newspaper, listen to music, idle talk.

Always having to do do do, think think, no discipline, no stillness, no rest, no ZEN!

Its this kind of understanding, which also benefits towards actions of life. I mean, you evolve as a person, there's more stuff you can do you desired to but otherwise could not or rather simply would not.

In other words.. there is nothing to lose by just making this effort. When it comes down to it, you'll only live your life more and more the way you want because you take more control back.

Letting go for us humans is difficult and takes consistent effort to improve, unless you're living out in the jungle, in that case it may be easier. Just you and your mind, telling it to shut up every 3 minutes.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


yeah for sure, pictures. And you know what, that is still more distractions.!

And its still being filtered, discriminated by what you expect. Like trying to intuitively pick up information and getting something else.

You know what i'm saying though... whats pure being... non-perception?

I had a dream experience where I was very young and I was "everyone and everything".. I was in the rocks and trees and I knew i was there, i felt i was everywhere without even seeing it, its hard to describe and even harder to describe to myself for that would involve thinking, and this was like....pure being. But i woke up feeling "damn.. that was odd and yet I want to go back to that place I consider desirable?"

I know what you mean about engaging, its like gears, switches. I choose when to turn on my mind, its kind of cool, but i realize its part of actually legitmately (I think?).. not caring about analyzing a certain thing.. so i end it as soon as it begins and my mind becomes blank and focussed. Less feeling of... branching off like its some friggen psychedelic trip or something or deep deep meditation, you know, like "theta mode" where everything shifts, your almost asleep and a purple-monkey-dishwasher has symbolic and profound understanding to you.

Always shifting, endless analyzing!

Analyzing can go on forever so give up the quest to find the end process.. if you think you did, think again, and this part of the secret of having an open mind... you must be humble to be wise... you need to agree you probably dont know the final answer to anything and its best to just leave it open, when you do, that allows more info to come, you get wise fast... and it becomes more apparent that things are endlessly analytical.

I did a thread on it, logic vs imagination type thing, and conceptually, it seems to me that infinity is the game and the word.

Anyways, the machine, body..mind, needs to sleep..so it can work well rested to keep the mind from freaking out and you get it.

peace! I hope your friends find the bees! . And then fill moments with a whole hive of them.

omg i love the path!

and i'm going to try what you suggest. thanks.

I have little to add compared to the OP () but I feel what you're saying in my soul. Every now and again a post will speak to me and this is one of them, so I thank you!

Your points about language are something I've been thinking about most of my life. I think in many ways our language is a prison to our minds. It shapes and moulds concepts by its very definition. Preconceived notions abound.

Out of interest, are you familiar with "Culture is Your Operating System" by Terence McKenna? IMO, if culture is the operating system then language is the code.

Nice post!

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Dookzor]

reply to post by CavemanDD


I like the idea of relaxing into the moment, and if everyone could, they'd be much happier. That said, the generation of intellect is about achieving unique identity, and consistency with prior expressions of self is critical to achieving that singular identity. This drives the mind to find something/anything that will enable its next burst of intellect to be both unique and contextually sympathetic with what it's already determined will be the over-arching personality profile when all is said and done. Radical diffusion is simply not reasonable when dealing with the fabrication of identity.

For some folks, this innate focus of consistency will allow for that generous relaxation, but for others, there simply won't be a way to incorporate that ease without compromising the integrity of what the mind has been constructing for far too long as a unique and stable identity. And we can't fault anyone for the singular vision that their mind has embraced as being the right identity for their eternal expression. We can only be grateful that we like our own mind's vision for ourselves - that is, of course, if we do like what our own mind has been working on, on our behalf.

Identity is the end-goal of the mind's effort during your corporeal life. By the time you're capable of being aware that such an effort is underway, most of the contextual structure is firmly established, and it's more a matter of finishing the interior and trim pieces. Still, there's always a way to polish up whatever's been established and be the very best and most positive version of what you are. After all, that's what you'll be forever once you toss the corpse in the end. May as well make sure the paint edges are clean.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by NorEaster]

reply to post by NorEaster


With all this branching off, all these different thoughts and actions, uniqueness seems to be a constant. Through life it seems we just choose what kind of uniqueness and it brings some sort of satisfaction.

It seems like making a piece of art, being endlessly satisfied by doing so, only the art piece has to get bigger, better, more detailed, more unique, more powerfully thought provoking, the kind of art that changes lives, the expression of a radical movement even.

Myself, my mind I should say, has the experiences of contentment and satisfaction, ambition, a thrill from accomplishment, a driving force for that expression of uniqueness.

It really aint a bad life, because I perceive "good".. and good is like magnetically consistently sought after.

But the mind is also endlessly analytical, it wants to be "right".. so to further its goal for that chosen expression of uniqueness, its evolution right?... so in that process you get wise to the situation and realize, what am I trying to say here...

this process of "non-process".. simply being... we'll simplify and say... you just have this urge to "let go" into something, or nothing.. some great release that feels as instinctual as an animal's migration... in this zen realization it actually benefits your minds goals... you gain clarity.. you balance yourself, etc.

I can't explain it.. but a good way I choose to look at is:

Everyone's trying to climb the spiritual ladder when really it is the ladder of the mind, the ego, the experience itself, and the spiritual is ever present that need no ladder to climb... but detach itself from the need to. Don't climb.. just BE.

As you "evolve" spiritually.. further into that state of simplicity..pure being, that instinctual path.. you evolve.. you get wiser, more able... the ego evolves and its not that you detach from your ego as you evolve, but rather detach from a limited perspective of it.

Say... you become more aware... an optimal functionality of the mind/body/ego etc or something else but none the less benefiting the ego... "I am more then my body".. well thats great... then you can experience the uniqueness of the "more then your body".

We'll give another scenario... you posess some very pure state of being comparing to your current and say you can do some amazing things even though you don't concern yourself with them.. you would be content just doing anything, it wouldn't matter, its all the same to you.. you could just sit on a rock and meditate into that state of pure being but the state you are in is highly conducive to some higher expression... you are like a living god in the world yet you spend your life "non being"... you're more natural state in combination with your combined wisdom, experience, and perhaps some sort of training to reach that state has evolved your mind.

I am trying to make this more complicated then it is.

OK... so... you evolve spiritually of sorts...perhaps you reach a level where everything is a thought form you wish to engage, realities created like daydreams, shifting around yet you choose to stay put for some higher calling of PEACE.

Its like you are given more power the less you even care about in simple terms. I kind of look at it like that. Like I am a thought like a floating concept would be to my mind, i am such a thought in the higher mind of something else, a higher part of my mind. My mind is a unique fractal expression of a higher mind, with a higher mind etc.. yet its all interlinked.

So much emphasis on this life which could just be a unique sound, noise, an artistic expression, a day dream to something else.

Our uniqueness to explore like those thoughts you wish to endlessly attach yourself to and analyze and shift. A round and round we go.

If I had to draw it, it would be an endless spiral that gets bigger and bigger conceptually only you are only perceiving the movement of the spiral and everything you think and do is interlinked with the thoughts and actions of the reality before you and all it seems we are really doing it just simply:

Making the experience more awesome... in the simplest terms. We can't help but learn, and that leads us to where we are..just further along the endless path to realizing an eternal being.

Ok I don't know about you but this is getting too difficult for me to even explain to myself and I'm not sure i'm expressing this as concisely as it appears in my mind. !

But uhh... yeah... totally man, I agree with that "stuff" in that I agree only that all things interesting are worth exploring and leaving open!

reply to post by Dookzor


hey man, i'm just a subconscious symbol in your mind telling you what you only know but you chose what kind of externalization to present it to you because of your own self-doubt.

At least that's what I keep telling myself. Its all in the mind, everything to me.

Whenever I post something I assume something constructive may come out of it for someone else, usually I don't hear about it until months later unexpectedly. I just go into auto-pilot and talk and it just flows, there is no plan what to talk about, which may be why some things I say jump around. I just like to get it out of me now and then. There's some sort of purpose right?

I hear lots of Terrence McKenna but honestly, I don't even read. One to a few books a year really. Articles I read, when I need to know.

I am uneducated and ignorant because I choose to be.. I mean I'm just realizing it now that its of my choosing. I know nothing of politics, some traditional meditation practices and beliefs with it. I may read up on a topic I find interesting yet in the end it kind of comes back to what my thread is about.. I'm just getting more chill by the day and not caring unless I choose to know something or experience it. My usefulness in this society will be through some different then usual means. hah. Well I can talk and I can work. I have ideas but I dont expect anyone to follow them. Politics remind me of some inner struggle I did away with years ago, it just bores me.

I literally choose to know nothing unless it serves what I feel to be some calling. Just kind of playing it by the day, the moment. Not making a big deal of it. And you know what.. I am a very content and simple man but I am driven in certain directions...powerfully attractive thoughts to this mind of mine.

Yes now and then I read.. its usually to pick up a skill or get a second opinion of something I find really currently interesting and desireable to me.

Read only the first 2 chapters of the secret life of plants to get a scientific opinion of what I already thought.

Read a Tai Chi book for obvious reasons, same with other mind / spirit training.

And I read books on past life recalls and interesting stuff people say under meditation.. its just my story time that I leave open that hovers between fiction and possible fact, but the mind eats it up and loves to imagine it.

Whatever, day by day.. I can't predict how different I will be in the near future, its amazing how things change, that being said... right now having this discussion and maybe playing a little music is of interest to the mind and any higher calling if any seems to be ok with that, so i'm doing it. I wont struggle over what I think "should" be done, with what I feel simply is being done despite the mind expects things to be done otherwise.. I just feel my way through life uncomplicatedly.

The conversational aspects of the mind are thoroughly engage, ignore this whole post, its as much an illustration of the point of my thread.. getting caught in thoughts and actions for the purpose of some release.

If I was more balanced I wouldn't even be doing this. If I didn't feel I that I really wanted to say something and raise a certain discussion, I wouldn't have started the thread. Everything we do, balancing out an urge of some sort.

This is really something else. In the moment, yet aware, at the same time, zen mind but conscious and able to chose. Like an art to strive for, this does open alot of right brained intelligence and intuitive knowing, in the moment. This thread really struck me. Sometimes I feel like I'm living with short term memory loss, I do remember the important metaphysical moments because they seem to be my inner compass but the daily ones are a struggle. So while this is my kind of language and needs to be promoted in some of the more rigid thinkers that map their whole lives out and live in the past or future, I still have to say sometimes it feels like a curse, like waking up to a new day each day like in a movie I watched where the woman had to begin a new each day for an accident took away her short term memory altogether, not that bad but a little that way.

Sometimes our goals and dreams, setting sail for the future can give us purpose and help us to define what we want to draw into our lives and the world, but really feel the heart and wisdom in this message.

Great thread.

[edit on 13-7-2010 by Unity_99]

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by CavemanDD

 

I like the idea of relaxing into the moment, and if everyone could, they'd be much happier. That said, the generation of intellect is about achieving unique identity, and consistency with prior expressions of self is critical to achieving that singular identity. This drives the mind to find something/anything that will enable its next burst of intellect to be both unique and contextually sympathetic with what it's already determined will be the over-arching personality profile when all is said and done. Radical diffusion is simply not reasonable when dealing with the fabrication of identity.

The minds conversation... I find myself caught in the middle of this at times - I want to do something creative but also in context - without some rules it's pure chaos - pure freedom in that sense would be pontless in purpose but also inconceivable and imperceptible, not doable, in reality.

More to the mind's conversation: Perhaps when we learn to let go we are no longer a slave to this drive of uniqueness within context (which is sort of paradoxical but it works). Or perhaps our mind learns to be strong enough to meet the drive and fulfill it, and we become happy/satisfied that way. Or it's a little bit of both. Maybe when we are no longer a slave to this, we still do it for fun.

It reminds me of the integral approach, In my own words: where you maintain your identity (hopefully what would be your "highest self at the time") but you always work within the context of the situation (which can all be mapped out in spectrums or quadrants, but that's usually not needed in the moment of course)

Interesting post CavemanDD, You said in the OP, "Is it a game of discipline..maintaining the linear direction or the nature of the mind itself, of the reality we perceive as things constantly move about and change configuration before our senses." I think the OR to that, would be "Or is it a game of letting go and ACCEPTING what the mind does even if it loses the linear, or fails to appease itself in that way."

The accepting side is just as prevalent as the discipline side. A lack of acceptance could just as well cause the interrupting reaction, as a lack of discipline.

edit: and I thought you were about to say that

[edit on 13-7-2010 by Novise]