The suspension of all beliefs

Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by NorEaster

 

The bitch is that as a being that physically exists, you ARE constrained, and belief has nothing to do with it.

Would you say this is a belief of yours or a knowing? If you meditate with knowing or believing you are constrained how do you see yourself evolving spiritually?

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Mr Green]

The evidence is clear and compelling that you exist. The evidence is also clear and compelling that you and i exist on the same definitive plane of physical existence. If not, then we could not communicate directly through the manipulation of other forms of physical existence that we also share existence with. There is a foundational physical plane that we both share, and whether you believe in it or not, it exists. What is also clear and compelling is the evidence that this foundational plane is not dependent on your specific belief in its existence.

Meditation is a form of self-hypnosis that calms the inner chatter, and there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't do anything to evolve you in a spiritual manner, but if it helps you enjoy the corporeal existence that you're confined within, then what's the harm. "Spiritual" existence is a very different form of existential expression and you'll become extremely well acquainted with it soon enough (relatively speaking, of course). Your corporeal existence has its own benefits and useful applications, so try to keep that also in mind. Nothing is a waste of time, and that includes the corporeal phase of your development.

Just some thoughts for you consideration. There's no wrong way to develop as a human being.

reply to post by NorEaster

Meditation is a form of self-hypnosis that calms the inner chatter, and there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't do anything to evolve you in a spiritual manner

You are of course quite entitled to this belief.

Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Meditation is a form of self-hypnosis that calms the inner chatter, and there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't do anything to evolve you in a spiritual manner

You are of course quite entitled to this belief.

I believe so.

reply to post by Mr Green

From this Im getting we need to just go with the flow of life. Let go and trust in its mystery as it unfolds before us and to stop trying to know everything about life. We dont need to stop learning, but as the Creator unveils some of its mysteries before us, we should just embrace this, be still as it unfolds and let go within the experience.

Exactly, just live in the moment.... The beliefs will slowly dissolve away. Beliefs surrounding Religion, New Age, Spirituality are all motivators of fear. Forget searching for The Begging/The End, it's what's keeping you discovering the door to endless possibilities.

This is not a belief.

Its very hard to experience things such as OBE's and not over analyze them, but if we do we allow our mind to create beliefs around the experience which is really a wonder of the divine and we should just go with its flow. Its a very fine line to walk, to be able to suspend beliefs while observing creations greater mysteries, but one that maybe man should learn. Even posting on forums, if not kept in check can form beliefs which become cemented and ridgid. I have stopped writing down lucid dreams, visions and projections now because this is a form of self reflection. Self reflection on these mysteries only serves to form beliefs about them.

OBE's, Dreams/Lucid Dreams don't need to be analyzed at all, Experience & Enjoy and always be in the moment, and not in the mind. Learn to live without thinking, the more you do this the more automated "So to speak" your life becomes. Everything becomes so much easier, life becomes more beautiful. Them thoughts, emotions and feelings that hold so many of us back become bliss, sure things will try to steer you off the track but not for long.

It's as simple as

LET GO.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by IamNow]

Originally posted by xizd1
Is there any difference in reality and what I believe reality to be? If I were to cease to exist, would reality also cease? Does reality exist without my participation?
Hello Mr. Green!

That approach is dumb. The fact that you exist is not a belief. The fact that you exist is part of a program, a matrix where all information emanates from and that information manifests itself as energy and this energy manifests itself in the from of matter that forms a body, your body. That is reality, evidence and not a belief.

If you stop all belief, you empty your memory, and thus you stop thinking. This state of thinking nothing is what one calls "to be". You are when you stop thinking and this way of being you and only you is stopping entering in any relation to what ever it is and thus stop to be an individual. So, Descartes statement "I think thus I am" was the most false one could ever do.

Being with yourself can have two states of existence, one is you know all and you are one with all and all with one, or you know nothing, like the day you get born and then you are all with nothing and nothing with all. but, those states of knowing nothing and knowing all is the same since you are all with what you know and all you know is one with you. That state of existence we call all-one, or alone. Once you start thinking you relate to something you don't know. Thinking is a manifestation of ignorance.

It is as simple as that. Consider that all that you belief and that you keep up as an undestructible fact or a false evidence is called a dogma or faith.

Faith is the root of all evil. If you want to remain a perfectly balanced being, get all information you want and store all of it in a pending state of information. Evidence is questionable since at any time in your life, some details that have been overseen can be found and destroy this evidence and create a new one. Avoid creating and believing in dogmas, that is a dangerous sport.

Many people cannot enter in that state of no belief, no thinking and have no own meaning or opinion. Most are conditioned by the modern world, are prisoners of there mind and listen in permanence to the old gramophone in the head that plays the same song all day long till they die and that gramophone they are to weak in mind to switch it off.


All you see around you is originating from the same source, that negative matrix that is a contender of all information that makes the positive matrix, the world of matter where energy manifests itself in all different forms we know and don't and even can't think about.

Reality is a mirage, a fata morgana. Some claim that the only moment that counts is here and now. But, where is here and what is now. The moment you realize what here is and now is, it is a part of your past. So you always live the past and face the future. once you think you live the future it has become the past. Even if it is a question of nanoseconds, it is the past and never the present. Nothing is thus more abstract then the present.

So forget all about reality, live in that dream and enjoy it. And, let horses think, they have bigger heads.


[edit on 29-6-2010 by eurocrates]

reply to post by Mr Green


That's it. No belief, no concept can be fundamentally true. However, the belief that "no belief is true" is itself just another belief. So-called enlightenment is to remain suspended between belief and non-belief of concepts.

Originally posted by eurocrates

Originally posted by xizd1
Is there any difference in reality and what I believe reality to be? If I were to cease to exist, would reality also cease? Does reality exist without my participation?
Hello Mr. Green!

That approach is dumb. The fact that you exist is not a belief. The fact that you exist is part of a program, a matrix where all information emanates from and that information manifests itself as energy and this energy manifests itself in the from of matter that forms a body, your body. That is reality, evidence and not a belief.

If you stop all belief, you empty your memory, and thus you stop thinking. This state of thinking nothing is what one calls "to be". You are when you stop thinking and this way of being you and only you is stopping entering in any relation to what ever it is and thus stop to be an individual. So, Descartes statement "I think thus I am" was the most false one could ever do.

Being with yourself can have two states of existence, one is you know all and you are one with all and all with one, or you know nothing, like the day you get born and then you are all with nothing and nothing with all. but, those states of knowing nothing and knowing all is the same since you are all with what you know and all you know is one with you. That state of existence we call all-one, or alone. Once you start thinking you relate to something you don't know. Thinking is a manifestation of ignorance.

It is as simple as that. Consider that all that you belief and that you keep up as an undestructible fact or a false evidence is called a dogma or faith.

Faith is the root of all evil. If you want to remain a perfectly balanced being, get all information you want and store all of it in a pending state of information. Evidence is questionable since at any time in your life, some details that have been overseen can be found and destroy this evidence and create a new one. Avoid creating and believing in dogmas, that is a dangerous sport.

Many people cannot enter in that state of no belief, no thinking and have no own meaning or opinion. Most are conditioned by the modern world, are prisoners of there mind and listen in permanence to the old gramophone in the head that plays the same song all day long till they die and that gramophone they are to weak in mind to switch it off.


All you see around you is originating from the same source, that negative matrix that is a contender of all information that makes the positive matrix, the world of matter where energy manifests itself in all different forms we know and don't and even can't think about.

Reality is a mirage, a fata morgana. Some claim that the only moment that counts is here and now. But, where is here and what is now. The moment you realize what here is and now is, it is a part of your past. So you always live the past and face the future. once you think you live the future it has become the past. Even if it is a question of nanoseconds, it is the past and never the present. Nothing is thus more abstract then the present.

So forget all about reality, live in that dream and enjoy it. And, let horses think, they have bigger heads.


[edit on 29-6-2010 by eurocrates]

" Thinking is a manifestation of ignorance."
Looks like you did a lot of manifesting right there. Sorry my thoughts are dumb, please ignore.

reply to post by Mr Green

Mr Green,
This is a technique towards Enlightenment.

This is as Old as time itself. The suspension of all beliefs is taught in Hinduism, Buddhism, even in Xtianity under a anonymous Monk's book called "The Cloud Unknowing"

It s also part of Advaita Vedanta, Vasistha systems ...etc.

You are treading on extremely Advanced grounds with this topic!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply to post by dominicus


From where I'm standing enlightenment is very very simple, A child could do it.

Simply forget about Enlightenment, forget all the complex teachings, what the gurus have said over the years. Forget Religion, New Age, Spirituality, God/The Creator/The Source. Drop every belief and you will find it, even what I write here is just more confusion so as soon as you read this "Drop it"

There is no such word as Advanced in my vocabulary, Simple all the way

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Mr Green

 

This is as Old as time itself. The suspension of all beliefs is taught in Hinduism, Buddhism, even in Xtianity under a anonymous Monk's book called "The Cloud Unknowing"

Seems you posting about "The cloud of Unknowing" is an example of synchronicity....today from a web search I found that suspending beliefs seems to have a name in modern psychology, it is called deautomatization.

The essential skill of suspending beliefs is known in modern psychology as deautomatization , interfering with the automatic response that create all interpretations, be they individual, social, or of the species.

The above is from the book/article, Deautomatization and The Mystic Experience by AJ Deikman which came up on my search today.

www.deikman.com...

As you can see "The Cloud of Unknowing" which you referred to is mentioned in the first paragraph, this link looks very interesting, one I will have to read in more depth.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Mr Green]

[edit on 29-6-2010 by eurocrates]


" Thinking is a manifestation of ignorance."
Looks like you did a lot of manifesting right there. Sorry my thoughts are dumb, please ignore.



I think that you really need somewhat more "thinking" before replying that way you do.

Look at reality and analyze what you think about, all you think about and seek a reason for it.
Do you ever think about something you know. Certainly not. Thinking is a manifestation of ignorance, you probably miss-understand this.
Thinking does not needs to be manifestation of total ignorance as such but when ever you think, there is something you ask a question to or what you relate to. You can only think in relation with something you don't know or something that has not occur and you know it's going to happen.

Example again. The first time you want to drink a beer, you are in the darkness because you don't know what beer is, looks like and tastes like.
So, now you start thinking about this states of ignorance. You want to know. This desire to know will let you think about it. If that was not the case, why would you think about it.

So, you open the bottle and drink the beverage. You might open a second one an drink it and now, you know. Once you know, that bottle of beer becomes one with you and you become one with it and in the future, it becomes an habit, you go to the fridge take one , open it and drink it and you do not think about it. States of thinking in this context will occur in the future only before you do this, manifestation of thirst or lust, drink because you thirsty or for pleasure. Once the decision is made, you stop thinking, you enter in a state of automation because that what follows is entered as a fixed program in you brain and here no need to think.

When will thinking occur again. Well, it will occur when another element of this beer will manifest a state of ignorance. Then a question gets open and you start thinking about it again. This can be, what is it made of, is it cold enough, what will happen if i do this or that with it. But, as long as you do exactly the same as always before, you will not think about it and you become an automated being.
So, thinking is a state of not knowing something or knowing something that will happen and has not happened yet. Tomorrow you have to do a task and until it is done, you will think about it and often you think about it in the state of not knowing how to do it or if it will be successful. In any way, there is a state of not knowing something and the whole or a part of the whole you don't know is something you relate to you enter with it in a relation. This relation ends once you reached you goal and this goal is knowledge and once you know you stop thinking about it.

So, again, thinking is a state that occurs if there is a state of ignorance that manifests to you and you decide to enter in relation with the unknown.
What ever you want to do, what ever you think, you always relate to something. Without an element to relate to and that puts you in a state of not knowing something about it, you will not be able to think. To think about what, there needs to be something to think about.

To become an individual being, you need a second being, what ever the aspect of it is doesn't matter. Without an object to relate to, you can't think and thus can' be an idividuum. If nothing was around you and you happened to be in an inert space, you would not think anything else then 2 things, who am I and where am I, the basic thoughts you get once you look into the void during the night or in the dark when you close your eyes.
And the again, this thought occurs in a relation of something you ignore.

So, thinking is a state of total or partial ignorance only. You might now launch your junk comment again, this will not change anything to that rule.
You can't change evidence, only thing you can change is your behavior.




[edit on 29-6-2010 by eurocrates

[edit on 29-6-2010 by eurocrates]

Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Mr Green

 

This is as Old as time itself. The suspension of all beliefs is taught in Hinduism, Buddhism, even in Xtianity under a anonymous Monk's book called "The Cloud Unknowing"

Seems you posting about "The cloud of Unknowing" is an example of synchronicity....today from a web search I found that suspending beliefs seems to have a name in modern psychology, it is called deautomatization.

The essential skill of suspending beliefs is known in modern psychology as deautomatization , interfering with the automatic response that create all interpretations, be they individual, social, or of the species.

The above is from the book/article, Deautomatization and The Mystic Experience by AJ Deikman which came up on my search today.

www.deikman.com...

As you can see "The Cloud of Unknowing" which you referred to is mentioned in the first paragraph, this link looks very interesting, one I will have to read in more depth.

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Mr Green]

this is what I relate to in my post. Automatization is becoming one with what you know and and what you know becomes one with you.

Something you know will make you stop thinking about it and you become a machine that executes in the future this known element without any further question. This a state of belief based on evidence. You know, you have the evidence, you believe it since you know it's the reality and that for you make out of it a part of you and you become an automated being.

This state of belief gets dangerous once you make a dogma from any belief that leave you in state of not wanting, even not being strong enough in you mind to change this. Then, the belief becomes faith.

So, removing all out of your brain you believe in is deautomatization. you stop to identify yourself with what you know and return to a state of ignorance where you review what you knew and search for new evidence. This search of new evidence opens question, puts you in new state of relation to what you want to know, thus ignore and you start thinking again about those things that you did not think about anymore before you deautomated.

Originally posted by xizd1
What I take away from this is that our senses or perceptions are the major stumbling block of reaching a higher self or awareness.

Hi Folks great thread.
The mind only school of buddhism shows senses to be centred in the brain, and therefore not a worthy proof of external reality.

Since acknowledging this I have investigated 4 other main stream belief systems and cannot imagine an event that could disprove anyone of them. My conclusion is belief is inappropriate to the human condition, though I recogise that your belief is undeniable.

My feeling is that buddhist enlightenment is the letting go of the weight of belief.

reply to post by eurocrates


"That approach is dumb."

I accept your apology.

hello all you beautiful people.

1st i'd like to reply to the very first post. yes.

2nd, if we post at all, does that mean we're not at all enlightened? after all, enlightenment is only personal. so thats a rhetorical question obviously.

3rd, to answer the origional question. i wake up everyday and enjoy life. theres no good or evil, no wrong or right. i'm not above or below anything. when someone has drama in their life, i'm usually the only one who can correctly ascertain whats going on and apply strategy. i dont fight with my gf, in fact she's never even heard of a relationship as peaceful as ours. theres no reason to fight (haha maybe theres no reason not to also[joke]). i dont know hate or love. people always think thats sad yet envy my life, i think thats sad. i've had a life of personal tragedy, but i'm ok. i am how i am. everything just comes to me, maybe i just know how to accept what comes. i see everyone else struggling and why, when all they see is life sucks.

i get around in life by travelling through and correctly negotiating the chasms of others' duality. peoples minds become so entrenched they seem overwhelming. minds become too loud to even hear oneself speak. my mind is quiet enough to hear other peoples thoughts (not in a psychic way). i meditate every waking second. i consider myself ultra-aware. but if i seem wise to others its only because i have wisdom enough to take duality out of the picture and see whats left. all around i see people suffering and wishing that suffering on me, and all around i see people dying and not really minding. all around me people are doing unto others what they would have done unto them. pain. and it strengthens my resolve.

i have put myself in almost everyone elses shoes. when you're no longer above or below anything, you can actually understand 99% of all human actions. some people upon seeing the greatest truths will become despondent, sociopathic, or depressed. this may only be natural as realizing you've been lied to is never fun. i've seen people become bitter or even suicidal. i, for some reason, see more reason to live and experience life.

but... i am not enlightened. i enjoy things, i dislike things. i post things on forums and speak to others. i think life is to be enjoyed.

but maybe that is enlightenment, maybe thats why one zen meditation is simply sweeping the floor...

reply to post by mav0360

peoples minds become so entrenched they seem overwhelming. minds become too loud to even hear oneself speak.

Ive experienced this....to have a mind so entrenched with thoughts and beliefs, the self reflection (mind chatter) does become overwhelming. Your right our mind become just so loud we cant hear anything else except it. It becomes almost impossible to look inwards in such a loud environment, not thinking shuts the noise of the mind off.