The suspension of all beliefs

reply to post by snowen20


Ja I think we are going off on our own tangents, what I'm getting at is there is no 'you' there is just a collection of thoughts that happened, some of which happened to include the concept of a seperate self
I don't think thoughts are required in order for us to do anything, animals have no language to think in, but they seem to do a perfectly good job of surviving in harmony with nature, much better than us humans in fact

Try this book:

How to believe in nothing and set yourself free

I'd give a summary, but I'd fail.

i mean, in order for 'you' to have a belief, you have to have the belief that there is a you to believe it to begin with,
when you realise that your attempting to explain it is actually the problem everything is experienced as it is

reply to post by SciChosis


Well said I see where your coming from. I still think it comes down to a level of perception though, but I never claimed to have the answers.

But I can understand what your saying.

reply to post by snowen20


So the op is proposing a return to a more instinctual existence?

Where action is performed with out initial consideration for the “deeper” meanings behind anything?

I may be wrong but it seems like that’s what I’m taking away from what you are telling me.
I’m not saying it is wrong if that’s the case I actually find it interesting.

We should have a group meditation. I'll suspend first and you can do so after you read this. Report back on anything you find

Go

Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by snowen20

 

So the op is proposing a return to a more instinctual existence?

Where action is performed with out initial consideration for the “deeper” meanings behind anything?

I probably wouldnt say instinctual existance, as that is following an inborn/pre programmed behavior, I would say more existing in line with the natural creative force rather than that which is pre programmed.

The Zen teacher Shunryu Suzuki puts this type of attitude to life very well in his book Zen Mind, Beginners Guide.


blog.gaiam.com...

We should not believe in anything. We should suspend arbitrary rules such as the transient forms of reality. Ninety nine percent of thinking is self-centered. We need to step away from this and move towards that which has no form or color, but that which is waiting to take form.

Hes saying is we need to look to our potential and creative force, instead of being limited to that which has been artificially created by others beliefs.

I think suspending all beliefs may be a way of entering and living a life like that. A life of realizing pure potential is how Id describe it rather than instinctual .




[edit on 24-6-2010 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by SciChosis

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by SciChosis
psychedelics have lead me to this conclusion,
ultimately to nonduality, everything 'you' 'think' is a belief, the only truth is that oneness includes the happening of beliefs

Can you rephrase this ^ so that I understand what it means? I don't know what "oneness" means and I don't know what "happening of beliefs" means.

Thanks.

Oneness is simply all that is, by the happening of beliefs I mean, the beliefs are thoughts, and thoughts happen, there is no-one experiencing the thoughts, they just happen, there is no-one to experience sounds, sounds happen, it isnt sound until your brain turns frequencies into sound, but when that is done so, the sound is not 'heard' by someone afterwards,

Thoughts are actively generated by the brain. This has been proven with imaging equipment and cranial probes. Thoughts can be reactive or incidental, but they still are actively generated.

Even sound is real, regardless of whether anyone hears it or not. Inanimate objects react to sound. Microphones, for instance. You produce sound waves with your vocal chords and the microphone reacts to those sound waves by translating them into an electronic signal. That couldn't happen if sound wasn't sound until your brain turned it into sound.

Philosophy isn't mental masturbation. It's extremely disciplined thought.

reply to post by NorEaster


Sound isn't SOUND until it is turned into sound by your brain, until then it's just vibration, a mic mimics the way our ear works,
Just as thoughts obviously manifest via a physiological means,
I don't see what that has to do with it though, this isn't philosophy, philosophy is thought, nonduality is everything, inclusive of thought, but not of it

Originally posted by SciChosis
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Sound isn't SOUND until it is turned into sound by your brain, until then it's just vibration, a mic mimics the way our ear works,
Just as thoughts obviously manifest via a physiological means,
I don't see what that has to do with it though, this isn't philosophy, philosophy is thought, nonduality is everything, inclusive of thought, but not of it

Its like if a large boulder fell from a distant mountain not within the reach of any hearing, when that boulder crashed to the ground would it even make a sound if there was no brain (human or animal) to process that as a sound? Does sound need an observer to process it as such? You could take it further and say does reality need an observer to process it via their belief system ?

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by SciChosis
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Sound isn't SOUND until it is turned into sound by your brain, until then it's just vibration, a mic mimics the way our ear works,
Just as thoughts obviously manifest via a physiological means,
I don't see what that has to do with it though, this isn't philosophy, philosophy is thought, nonduality is everything, inclusive of thought, but not of it

Its like if a large boulder fell from a distant mountain not within the reach of any hearing, when that boulder crashed to the ground would it even make a sound if there was no brain (human or animal) to process that as a sound? Does sound need an observer to process it as such? You could take it further and say does reality need an observer to process it via their belief system ?

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Mr Green]

Just so that we're all on the same page concerning reality....

Sound IS the vibration waves that are sent through the molecular structure that we call open air. In truth, there is no open space on earth. It's a dense molecular structure that consists of gaseous materials in a slurry that we wade through. Sound vibrations disturb these molecules and they react to it. That's what sound is.

Thoughts are information, and information is a form of physical existence.

Interpretation of these existential presences is not required for them to exist. If that were the case, then how could they possibly choose actively to come into existence simply due to the presence of an observer/listener? This isn't electric current that we're discussing. The load is not required for current to flow here. There is no dedicated physical structure that has been created to only facilitate the transfer of these sounds or thoughts. The environment itself is the conduit, and the environment is not finitely dedicated in the same manner as an electric wire.

When presenting reality, it's important to allow yourself to be constrained by the elemental structure of reality. To suggest that such rigid structure doesn't exist is to render reality an amorphous blob incapable of even allowing you enough consistent and dependable structure to contemplate its relative cohesion.

reply to post by NorEaster

When presenting reality, it's important to allow yourself to be constrained by the elemental structure of reality

This I feel I can not do, that is to allow this elemental (matter) reality to constrain me. This thread is about possible outcomes of suspending beliefs in such concepts, its not about possible outcomes of allowing one to become constrained by them. By becoming constrained to an elemental reality our chances, in my opinion of experiencing other less dense realities becomes diminished.

What I take away from this is that our senses or perceptions are the major stumbling block of reaching a higher self or awareness. Awareness may not be a good word as it too involves perceptions? Much like the sense deprivation boxes that were used to shut out the rest of the world leaving just you and your thoughts. But suspending belief goes way beyond that. What is left if there are no beliefs? I think this ties in with physics also, the observer cannot be separated from the event.

Originally posted by Mr Green
reply to post by NorEaster

 

When presenting reality, it's important to allow yourself to be constrained by the elemental structure of reality

This I feel I can not do, that is to allow this elemental (matter) reality to constrain me. This thread is about possible outcomes of suspending beliefs in such concepts, its not about possible outcomes of allowing one to become constrained by them. By becoming constrained to an elemental reality our chances, in my opinion of experiencing other less dense realities becomes diminished.

The bitch is that as a being that physically exists, you ARE constrained, and belief has nothing to do with it. Of course, no one should be constrained by beliefs, but reality is what it is, and working within the structure of reality, we can find our freedom from the constraints of erroneous belief systems. But this can only happen if we can finally establish the parameters of true reality, and then work back in from there to establish the possible that will be beneficial, and not simply expedient for the aggressive few.

The problem with refusing to accept any structure, is that eventually you'll be t-boned by that structure, and it will feel like restriction that you can't overcome. And yes, it will be restriction that you can't overcome, but if it seems to come out of nowhere, it can imply that the aggressive few have been the ones who established the restriction, and are capable of enforcing that restriction, when all along, it was a natural and logical restriction that they had nothing to do with. The net result will be that their agenda will be benefited by your refusal to allow for and establish the natural constraints.

Knowledge is power, and knowledge about the parameters of reality is real power. No one can ever dominate you if you know the parameters of reality, and what your true capacities are. The irresponsibly idealistic always crash and burn due to their refusal to establish the true range of their capacity. All I'm suggesting is that you investigate the absolute parameters, so that when you get slammed by a restriction, you'll know why and how best to respond to it.

Originally posted by xizd1
What is left if there are no beliefs?

Pure awarness rather than what you believed? Awarness of the Source maybe? One good thing would be you would stop internal dialogue instantly because you'd have no beliefs to reflect upon. Internal dialogue is the mind cementing its beliefs whether they are true or not. No internal dialogue would free us of mind creations/beliefs and enable us to be much more conscious.

What I take away from this is that our senses or perceptions are the major stumbling block of reaching a higher self or awareness

I agree beliefs/perceptions/inner reflections...whatever we wish to call them seem to play a major part in closing us off to a higher consciousness.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Mr Green]

reply to post by Mr Green


Hey Stranger, good thread S&F

Dropping beliefs is the best thing I did, Obviously you need some form of beliefs in life e.g. I believe I need to move out the way of this bus that is heading for me as I believe I could get run over...

But anything else will probably condition your mind to search endlessly for something that probably isn't there.

I openly admit that......

I don't understand life
I don't understand The Universe
I don't understand The Creator

Admitting that has cleared a whole heap of junk out my trash can of a mind, and because of that I can enjoy the beauty and mystery or life.

Because of this...

I am closer to life than ever before.
I am closer to The Universe than ever before.
I am closer to The Creator than ever before.

Sound IS the vibration waves that are sent through the molecular structure that we call open air. In truth, there is no open space on earth. It's a dense molecular structure that consists of gaseous materials in a slurry that we wade through. Sound vibrations disturb these molecules and they react to it. That's what sound is.

Well, that's where we differ,
You explained it yourself in that sound is compression and rarefaction in air, theres nothing more to it than that, they're ripples on a pond, but they're ripples our ear and brain turn into the experience we call sound, but until that is done so, I don't class that as SOUND, anymore than I would call something noone has ever seen vision

and yeah, all of this is still belief, words being thought, the map isn't the territory, all science is just science of our perception of the universe, not an objective reality, there is no 'obective' reality because there can never be such a thing other than simply infinity, everything has to be perceived in some way in order to be perceived (obviously!), you can only know the perception, which is in your mind, you can never know the thing-in-itself, which ultimately is only a distinction made by our minds anyway

Its possible to do this through Meditation, imo. You can at least temporarily experience belief-less and viewpoint-less states. What happens then is that perception is no longer localized to one thought-form but expands into the Infinite and Absolute. The state is totally amazing and worth pursuing.

reply to post by NorEaster

The bitch is that as a being that physically exists, you ARE constrained, and belief has nothing to do with it.

Would you say this is a belief of yours or a knowing? If you meditate with knowing or believing you are constrained how do you see yourself evolving spiritually?

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by IamNow
reply to post by Mr Green

 

I openly admit that......

I don't understand life
I don't understand The Universe
I don't understand The Creator

In the context of this thread, these provide strong words in how we can suspend or even drop all our pre programmed beliefs. Yet they are difficult words to say. ( As I read them back now, a little tiny distant voice says....are you sure? Maybe its this voice of mind that will never understand these things, but if we connect to being we may) Our mind is full of beliefs and thats how the mind wants it to stay. The mind wants and needs us to not say those words so that we continue our conversations with it to try and find out the answers to life, the Universe and the Creator. As we continously repeat these conversations with our mind they reflect backwards and forwards within until they are cemented as actual. As you say so well below, unless we are prepared to drop beliefs we end up in an endless relationship with our mind.

But anything else will probably condition your mind to search endlessly for something that probably isn't there.

Your post is very similar to UrbanShaman's who said the following.

Embrace the nothing.

Be still.

Let go.

Open up.

From this Im getting we need to just go with the flow of life. Let go and trust in its mystery as it unfolds before us and to stop trying to know everything about life. We dont need to stop learning, but as the Creator unveils some of its mysteries before us, we should just embrace this, be still as it unfolds and let go within the experience. How many of us have over analysed, obsessed and had endless inner reflections on say an OBE? By doing this rather than just observing the mystery, and going with its flow we miss its gift due to the mind chatter we set up and around it for weeks after. Im sure by doing this we miss out on its wonder and the growth potential it brings.

Its very hard to experience things such as OBE's and not over analyze them, but if we do we allow our mind to create beliefs around the experience which is really a wonder of the divine and we should just go with its flow. Its a very fine line to walk, to be able to suspend beliefs while observing creations greater mysteries, but one that maybe man should learn. Even posting on forums, if not kept in check can form beliefs which become cemented and ridgid. I have stopped writing down lucid dreams, visions and projections now because this is a form of self reflection. Self reflection on these mysteries only serves to form beliefs about them.

I can enjoy the beauty and mystery or life.

Its highly possible that the mysteries of life are just that..a mystery and only open them selves up to us when we surrender to the fact we cant work out the mystery that is infinity!


[edit on 27-6-2010 by Mr Green]