God, Christianity, Control, and Fear

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

But your whole argument only works if there is a god and if someone believes in the bible you believe they do. So pretty much all your are doing is telling people how to believe only to then try and tell them how ignorant and dumb their belief system is. There are followers of the bible that do not even believe in god.

The bible tells people what and how to believe. I'm just talking about what the bible says. This thread isn't for people who don't believe in God. It's for at least one person who might get some kind of use from it.


[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

Originally posted by Naughty B0B

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

But your whole argument only works if there is a god and if someone believes in the bible you believe they do. So pretty much all your are doing is telling people how to believe only to then try and tell them how ignorant and dumb their belief system is. There are followers of the bible that do not even believe in god.

The bible tells people what and how to believe. I'm just talking about what the bible says. This thread isn't for people who don't believe in God. It's for at least one person who might get some kind of use from it.


[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

What the bible says and what it means differs from person to person, like i said there are followers of the bible that do not even believe in god. If the bible was only seen one way then we would not have over 38,000 different Christian denominations.

reply to post by zaiger


You're right but like I said, this thread is directed mainly towards the people who believe in God.

Originally posted by Naughty B0B
reply to post by zaiger

 

You're right but like I said, this thread is directed mainly towards the people who believe in God.

No... This thread seems made for people who believe in god the way that you want them to believe in god. Because you keep telling people how they should believe in god. Those with faith already have their view of the bible and their concept of god, if you honestly think asking people "why does god let bad things happen to good people" will bring something to their attention then you are sorely mistaken.

reply to post by zaiger


I'm glad you think you know what everyone thinks and everyone knows. If I've caused one person to question their beliefs, whatever they may be, then mission accomplished.

reply to post by Naughty B0B


How are you going to get them to question their beliefs? The entire OP is pretty much your view of the bible, your beliefs. I mean they come to this thread with their beliefs that is they already have their own answers for juvenile questions like why doe god let bad things happen. So it looks to me like you are trying to get people to question your beliefs. The only person who has been going on and on about how god is in controll of everything is you. Are you in doubt? Are you seeking spiritual guidance?

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

How are you going to get them to question their beliefs? The entire OP is pretty much your view of the bible, your beliefs. I mean they come to this thread with their beliefs that is they already have their own answers for juvenile questions like why doe god let bad things happen. So it looks to me like you are trying to get people to question your beliefs. The only person who has been going on and on about how god is in controll of everything is you. Are you in doubt? Are you seeking spiritual guidance?

I used to be a die hard Christian. Anyone that questioned the bible would piss me off but there would be a few seconds where it made me think and question my faith. I'm hoping there's at least one person on here that can get some use out of this thread. It's okay to question things. You like to keep bringing up my question of why God let's bad things happen, which I think is a good question to ask. There are other questions I've asked that you don't like to bring up. That's okay though. I used to be the same way. I'm trying to get anyone to question any of their beliefs. No one is born believing in a God. I'm going on about stuff like God being in control because I honestly never thought about how crazy the bible was when I used to believe it was the word of God. I accepted whatever it said and I let it control me in everything I did in life. I feel free and more confident now that I don't feel controlled by a religion. I'm going to continue to be a good person like I always have, without a book telling me to, and I'll continue to admit that I don't know all the answers.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

reply to post by Naughty B0B

There are other questions I've asked that you don't like to bring up.

Ask em.

That's okay though. I used to be the same way.

The same way? I do not think so... Like i have said i am not nor have ever been christian.

I'm trying to get anyone to question any of their beliefs. No one is born believing in a God. I'm going on about stuff like God being in control because I honestly never thought about how crazy the bible was when I used to believe it was the word of God.

So you used to be a "die hard" christian and you converted and now you are trying to get people to be like you? Im not sure people think that the bible is the word of god even the vattican will openly say that the bible was written by man.

I accepted whatever it said and I let it control me in everything I did in life. I feel free and more confident now that I don't feel controlled by a religion.

So it looks to me like you are easily swayed. Im just going to go out on a limb here and say that when you were a die hard christian you were always trying to convert people to christianity.

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by Naughty B0B

 

There are other questions I've asked that you don't like to bring up.

Ask em.

That's okay though. I used to be the same way.

The same way? I do not think so... Like i have said i am not nor have ever been christian.

I'm trying to get anyone to question any of their beliefs. No one is born believing in a God. I'm going on about stuff like God being in control because I honestly never thought about how crazy the bible was when I used to believe it was the word of God.

So you used to be a "die hard" christian and you converted and now you are trying to get people to be like you? Im not sure people think that the bible is the word of god even the vattican will openly say that the bible was written by man.

I accepted whatever it said and I let it control me in everything I did in life. I feel free and more confident now that I don't feel controlled by a religion.

So it looks to me like you are easily swayed. Im just going to go out on a limb here and say that when you were a die hard christian you were always trying to convert people to christianity.

Most of these are talked about in this thread-

Why does God test people even though he knows every outcome?

Why is God punishing humanity for something two people did?

Why is God punishing humanity for creating those two people with faults and testing them, knowing the outcome of the test beforehand?

Why are we punished for how we were created?

Why do we need to be forgiven for how we were created?

Why do the 10 commandments not mention rape?

Why does God allow evil and suffering to exist, especially if he's all-loving?

Why didn't God create us without evil or faults so that there would be no need for a hell where people were tortured forever?

Why aren't some serial killers stopped before they've killed over 50 people?

Why does God watch innocent children starve to death or be beaten, tortured, raped, stabbed, brutally murdered, etc. and not doing anything to stop or prevent it?

Why didn't God avoid all of this to begin with?

There's many more questions to be asked.

I'm not trying to get anyone to be like me. Nowhere in my thread have I tried to convert anyone. Oh and believe me, plenty of people think that the bible is THE word of God. This thread is to get people like them to question their beliefs.

You are correct. I did used to try to convert people to Christianity. That's because I read and followed the bible that said I should. Human beings can be easily swayed, especially when they're born into a family that tells them what they should and should not believe. This is why we need to question everything. This thread isn't about converting it's about questioning.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

reply to post by 54v!0r531f

you speak in absolutes, and that is how i know you are but a fool, and your talk of meditation is a disgrace. 5.) how do you know it isnt the way things work? your answer does nothing to repel his argument, you are doing precisely what you advise against. we are told time and time again the christian god is all powerful, controls everything and knows everything.... and yet you say he just goes along.... 6.) stop crying? how long did you have to meditate to come up with that answer? being devoured by predators or dying due to weather is not a test from god, thats existing in this world. 7.) it isnt deeper than that, and your explanation certainly isnt deep. thats what the bible says god did.

HAhahah .....come on brother take a chill pill.

First off when you say "you speak in absolutes, and that is how i know you are but a fool, and your talk of meditation is a disgrace."

Well there you go ....you just made an absolute statement. You yourself are guilty with the same verdict you throw at others.

However if we agree that we are using subjective semantics as pointers towards a reality and subject that just may be beyond words, thoughts, and be transcendent ....well then at least we can communicate for the sake of communication.

5.) God is infinite yes? So along with the nature of infinity you have absolute control, and absolute going along with everything. Better yet the absolute control of going along with everything. Every possibility is there in infinity.

6.)"being devoured by predators or dying due to weather is not a test from god, thats existing in this world. "

It seems to suck at the time of the occurrence ...but in the big picture its a physical body passing through time and passing possibly through some hazards and potential pitfalls of the physical worlds. You are not the body ...... it is but a jacket that eventually gets taken off like walking into a warm house from a cold winter storm.

You surely want to have kids in the future ...and yet there is these endless possibilities that they can become addicts, killers, suicidal, retarded, just the same as bright, brilliant, healthy, strong ...etc.

7.)Yeah the Bible says God sent down his son to die for our sins etc etc.

It is deeper than that. It would require knowing through direct experience the mystical realities that occur in a sonship ....ego death, and having the Holy Spirit indwelled in you, and approaching the Christian path as a spiritual scientist. It would require volumes of books to study to grasp this aspect.

And yet a mere speculator passing by window shopping subjective arguments see's something like a number 7 and shoots nothing but bricks or airballs at the basket.

If I'm an agnostic, I will take of value more the argument of an individual who was once an atheist and now a Christian over that of just the atheist, or vice versa.

Until you've checked out for yourself to see if its true, examined it, meditated on it, experienced the spiritual realities that are referred to in the Bible and know a thing or two about these depths ...its just mere garbage speculation.

Oh and as far as a disgrace to meditation. Yea sure ....what ever you say ...then thats what I am for you. Cool.

Im talking about meditation to a point of knowing yourself, the ego, the emotional bodies, the inner physical realms, the spiritual realms, blueprints of reality, transcendence, infinity, timelessness ....... have yourself a taste of these things then there will be no need to question Jesus, God, or the afterlife. Then all things fall into place...and there is just peace and understanding .......occasional giggling at those who don't know and argue against (not a selfish giggle, but one out of love and understanding because one was there once too)

But if you want to continue conjuring up more speculations ...be my guest. Just gotta say that ever since I was a kid, I always knew that its better to see for yourself than to sit there and argue whether such a possibility is there or not. Philosophy in general seems to agree.

You can have the debates, I'll take the direct truth instead, even if it means the destruction of the 'I'.

reply to post by Naughty B0B


Sorry, didn't bother reading the whole post. It was just too obvious that you didn't really understand the concepts and reasons behind God's actions. I would try and explain them to you but I won't for three reasons:

1) You don't care. Trying to convince you would be wasted because you've already made up your mind.

2) I have no obligation to. Jesus himself pretty much told his disciples not to bother with people who had already rejected the truth and to move on to those who are searching for it but have yet to hear it. You've already made up your mind so I have no reason to tell you what you have already rejected.

3) You could easily find the answers and rebuttals to most of your comments both on this site and many others. No reason to spend the time posting them again. (Not really sure why I spent the time posting this. Probably just because I just have to respond to these kinds of things. Oh well.)


If you are earnestly seeking the answers to the questions you posted, I will do my best to answer them, and I think that I can. If you ARE in fact humbly asking for help in seeking truth, I apologize and will do my best to help. If I come off rude it's simply because I'm sick of people's "I passed up religion because it was too limiting and stupid and anyone else who believes it is stupid" mentality and that is how your thread came off to me.

Later.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Naughty B0B

Why does God test people even though he knows every outcome?

As for the testing, instead of thinking of it like a pop quiz in school, think of it like a blacksmith testing the quality of the material he works with. In testing, we are having our impurities removed by the fire and the hammer.

Psalm 66:10

For you, O God, tested us;
you refined us like silver.

Proverbs 17:3

The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold,
but the LORD tests the heart.

Proverbs 27:1

The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold,
but man is tested by the praise he receives.

Isaiah 48:10

See, I have refined you, though not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Zechariah 13:9

This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, 'They are my people,'
and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'

Why is God punishing humanity for something two people did?

That really depends who you ask catholic or christian and what branch of christianity. Some scrapped the whole original sin thing and others got the idea that the death of jesus kind of cleaned the slate for everyone.

Why is God punishing humanity for creating those two people with faults and testing them, knowing the outcome of the test beforehand?

This is just a combining your previous questions.

Why are we punished for how we were created?

This is kind of flawed logic and the question really depends on if we are being punnished or not. It is along the lines of me asking you "why are you a cat".

Why do the 10 commandments not mention rape?

Im not sure they don't mention sex with animals, drugs or suicide but the rest of the bible does.
Rape.

"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die. 26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case. 27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her," (Deut. 22:25-28).

Sounds pretty clear to me, do not rape.

Why does God allow evil and suffering to exist, especially if he's all-loving?

Why didn't God create us without evil or faults so that there would be no need for a hell where people were tortured forever?

Why aren't some serial killers stopped before they've killed over 50 people?

Why does God watch innocent children starve to death or be beaten, tortured, raped, stabbed, brutally murdered, etc. and not doing anything to stop or prevent it?

Why didn't God avoid all of this to begin with?

Because we have free will...These are all more or less the same question which can be summed up as "why does god let bad things happen" whicl is why i kept adressing it before. Yet for some reaon you insisted you had more queations when in fact you are really only asking the same one over and over.
For presviously being a "die hard" christian you ask a lot of dumb questions that a simple google search could solve. But you are not asking to know it is just rhetorical bs trying to get people to covernt to your new found belief.
Did you start this little crusade by trying to convert people you previously converted to christianity?

reply to post by zaiger


So each time a child gets raped, tortured, killed, etc. it's just God, the blacksmith, allowing them to have their impurities removed by the fire and the hammer...? I'm not surprised people are okay with believing that.

The bible is self contradicting and full of holes. Most christians can't even agree on how to interpret it. People tend to interpret it based on their own desires.

How about these verses from the bible?

(Genesis 19:1-8) The righteous Lot offers his daughters to a horny mob of angel rapers.

(Genesis 19:30-38) Lot impregnates his virgin daughters after getting drunk.

(Genesis 38:13-18) Judah has sex with his daughter-in-law and orders her to be burned to death.

(Genesis 6:2-4) Angels had sex with women producing giant offspring.

I'll say this once more. I am not trying to convert anyone. It's people like you who get all fired up when anyone questions a religion. This thread is for questioning, not converting. Do you need to write that on your hand so you can remember it?

Free will is the magical answer for everything isn't it? Free will can't exist with an all knowing, all powerful God. God's whole "mysterious plan" from the get go makes entirely no sense. Everything that happened from the beginning until now. All of the suffering and all of the people who will be burned in hell forever for not believing, or perhaps for being born somewhere like the middle east into a different religion, God would've foreseen and could've prevented all of it from happening.

A good lesson we can learn from religion is that people tend to allow their emotions and desires to override reason.

and here are some more amazing verses from the bible-

(Exodus 12:29-30) God kills all the firstborn Egyptian children.

(1 Samuel 6:19) God kills 50,070 people for looking into the ark

(1 Samuel 15:2-3) Saul is ordered by God to kill all of the Amalekites: men, women, infants, sucklings, ox, sheep, camels, and asses, because God remembers what Amelek did hundreds of years ago.

(Numbers 11:1) God burns people alive for complaining.

(Numbers 11:4-33) God sent a plague on the people because they complained about food.

(Numbers 21:6) God sent fiery serpents to bite the people, and many of them died because, once again, they complained about the lack of food and water.

(Numbers 15:32-36) God commanded the people to stone to death a man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath.

(Numbers 16:41-49) God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them.

(2 Kings 2:23-24) two bears are sent by God to rip up 42 little children for making fun of Elisha's bald head.

(Luke 19:11-27) Jesus explains in a parable that those who refuse to submit to him will be killed before him.

dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 25-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

reply to post by Naughty B0B


Bob,

Do you know the whole story? Have you studied the context of the scriptures? Did you witness these accounts first hand?

You can't find anything positive in the Bible?



I take it your a glass half empty kinda gal.

So when God doesn't "do something" you complain.

When God does "do something" you complain.

You may find this article interesting Addicted to Complaining










[edit on 25-6-2010 by dusty1]

reply to post by dusty1


It's guy*

Would I want to witness God burning people alive or killing children? No. Are you okay with all of God's ridiculous killings in the bible? Are you okay with how much the bible contradicts itself? People will believe anything out of fear and Christianity proves it. What do you do when you read the bible, quickly turn the page whenever you see verses about God killing babies?

Ask yourself, if you haven't already, if you think the bible is really the word of God. Do you think that this God, out of every other God that humans have worshiped, is the true God, despite there not being any evidence that he or any other Gods exists?

I'm not here to make you believe anything because you and I both know that will never happen. Continue to question your beliefs, if you don't already, and I hope we can possibly all find out the truth someday. Whether that be us being underground or us finding out that a giant banana in space created us.



[edit on 26-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

I don't agree with a lot of the bible, because it was written by fallible man, and I agree that some men attempted and still do attempt to use it as a tool of control using fear.

God is a lot cooler of a guy than we give him credit for. We don't have to fear him, at least in my opinion. He knows we mess up, and he understands. Like a parent, he loves us and wants whats best for us. When you need a friend, he will be there. When you need a father or mother, he will be there. I think he would be cool to sit down and have a beer with.

Originally posted by State of Mind
I don't agree with a lot of the bible, because it was written by fallible man, and I agree that some men attempted and still do attempt to use it as a tool of control using fear.

God is a lot cooler of a guy than we give him credit for. We don't have to fear him, at least in my opinion. He knows we mess up, and he understands. Like a parent, he loves us and wants whats best for us. When you need a friend, he will be there. When you need a father or mother, he will be there. I think he would be cool to sit down and have a beer with.

You know all of that about God by reading a book you don't agree with a lot? Or is that just what you want God to be like? How can we be sure which God, out of all of the religions, is the one true God? How can we be sure that any God exists? I would have a beer with the invisible superhero if he promised not to set me on fire.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

Originally posted by Naughty B0B
You know all of that about God by reading a book you don't agree with a lot? Or is that just what you want God to be like? How can we be sure which God, out of all of the religions, is the one true God? How can we be sure that any God exists? I would have a beer with the invisible superhero if he promised not to set me on fire.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

[edit on 26-6-2010 by Naughty B0B]

No, I don't agree with a lot of the bible. For example, I don't believe in a traditional hell, and I don't believe that it lasts for eternity. God loves us so much, he knows we mess up, why would he punish us forever? If you had a child, and they did something awful (killed someone for example), you would still love them. At least I would, its still my baby.

As for religions, God is beyond that. He could care less what you call him (Jehovah, Yawhew, Mother Earth, etc), what books you read, whether your more into Mohammed, Jesus, etc. All these religions fighting for his attention are like sibling rivalries. I don't go to church or anything, but church isn't what matters. Religion is just a tool to set guidelines to live your life by, meet others, and celebrate the divine force that created us. Its there if you need it.

I just know God exists. I know thats not good enough for atheists and the science-minded, and I'm sorry. I'm not here to prove anything or convert anyone, I'm just putting in my two-cents. I know I might get flamed, or ridiculed, but that's alright. If your searching for whether God exists or not with scientific proof, I'm really proud of you. I hope you find what you want to find. I still question whether he exists or not once in a while, but I always come back to the same conclusion. He doesnt mind. He likes us to use our brains and logic, that's why he gave them to us.

I think it is a lot easier to connect with God when you somewhat let go of the religions and other bullsh#.

I like this video, I thought others might like to see it.

reply to post by Naughty B0B

It's guy*

Sorry, my bad.

No. Are you okay with all of God's ridiculous killings in the bible? Are you okay with how much the bible contradicts itself? People will believe anything out of fear and Christianity proves it. What do you do when you read the bible, quickly turn the page whenever you see verses about God killing babies?

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. The laws of physics do not contradict themselves.

It is only our understanding that is flawed.

You tend to over exaggerate.

God always gives people under judgement a way out. Egyptians, Gibeonites, Rahab and her family from Jericho.

I trust that God knows the circumstances better than you and I. He was there, He knew those people and cultures personally.



I am not afraid of God.









[edit on 26-6-2010 by dusty1]

This is my first post. I have a crush on Naughty BOB!
I can follow you and I do not mean that like in a cult!
Whenever I question my Faith - and I have done this more frequently lately.. I come right back to my Faith.
I believe in:
The Good outweighs the Bad. Reality includes them both... Reality includes life and death... Ying and Yang are both present at all times...
The battle must be fought for the sake of the sanity of our Creator.
I believe:
Our creator, is an infinite, solo, entity, that, encompasses all things. In who's character, Good wins. Good weighs an itsy-bit more.
I was born with a strong faith in my Creator. It has stayed with me like it was etched in my soul before I was born. My faith is challenged often in ways that are "staged", and, "forced" so I can see through them. I do not fall for it!
I keep a strong hold on my faith in the Good outweighing the Bad because I was born with it.
However, The bad stuff is REAL BAD!!!
I wish to be controlled by the Good Will of my Creator.
I am afraid of the Bad Will of my Creator.
I belive all of mankind is being tempered for the sake of balancing two opposing sides of the Nature of our Creator. I hope the end result is for the sake of separating them once and for all!
This reply is just my personal "feelings". And I do really really like you Naughty BOB!
I hope we can debate the balance of Good and Bad again!
cmariesees