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HAARP: A Logistical Study.

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posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Edrick

That an Arrayed Radio Transmitter *CAN BE PRODUCED* that is capable of creating visible Auroral phenomenon in the sky.


And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.




posted on Jul, 7 2010 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by mbkennel
reply to post by Bedlam
 



I'm pretty naive about this, but I wondered if a purpose (beyond basic research) of the RF array would be to artificially increase the density of the upper atmosphere in order to a) cause guidance problems in b) dynamically distinguish decoy and real

for ballistic missile buses or RV's.


There's not enough total energy in HAARP to do that.

It can make interesting comm ducts at times when the stars are aligned correctly, though.

Oh, and Julienne fries, whatever those are.



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 



That's not a laser in any way.


And what does Laser Mean... praytell?


You aren't understanding the mechanism by which a microwave oven creates plasma.


Oh, then... please... Enlighten me.




Low frequency radio waves in very low power densities are not going to have the same mechanism of action of plasma etchers and whatnot.


Oh, so you are saying that *YOU* are right... and that *PHYSICS* is wrong...

Amirite?

-Edrick



posted on Jul, 8 2010 @ 09:33 PM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 



There's not enough total energy in HAARP to do that.


Oh, this *ONE* radio antenna STATES that it does not have enough power to do this... so it must be *IMPOSSIBLE* to even attempt, eh?

-Edrick



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by Edrick
reply to post by Bedlam
 


And what does Laser Mean... praytell?


If the light given off by a microwave plasma etcher is a laser, then so is that of a neon bulb or a plain LED. You keep trying to make any quantum state-change emission of a photon into a laser. It's not.



Oh, then... please... Enlighten me.


Why don't you actually do some reading for understanding and show us you can find out on your own? Here's a hint - the microwaves aren't ionizing the air directly.




Oh, so you are saying that *YOU* are right... and that *PHYSICS* is wrong...

Amirite?


No, I'm saying YOU are wrong, and you're once more not bothering to read the material you're barfing up keywords from.

[edit on 9-7-2010 by Bedlam]



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 12:07 AM
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Originally posted by Edrick
reply to post by Bedlam
 

Oh, this *ONE* radio antenna STATES that it does not have enough power to do this... so it must be *IMPOSSIBLE* to even attempt, eh?

-Edrick


I should program a F key for this. If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

If I could put a few gigawatts of power through this laser pointer and actually could make it convert that to laser light, then I'd have a super duper death laser! That proves it! Only, it won't, because that's not what it is.

[edit on 9-7-2010 by Bedlam]



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 



If the light given off by a microwave plasma etcher is a laser, then so is that of a neon bulb or a plain LED. You keep trying to make any quantum state-change emission of a photon into a laser. It's not.



Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation (LASER or laser) is a mechanism for emitting electromagnetic radiation, typically light or visible light, via the process of stimulated emission. The emitted laser light is (usually) a spatially coherent, narrow low-divergence beam, that can be manipulated with lenses. In laser technology, "coherent light" denotes a light source that produces (emits) light of in-step waves of identical frequency, phase,[1] and polarization.
-Wiki



The Gain Medium (Antenna) is exited by an externally applied alternating current.

The Phases of the emitters are all in step, polarized, with identical frequency waves.


The emitted laser light is (usually) a spatially coherent, narrow low-divergence beam


Yes... I would say that it WOULD be a Laser... now that you mention it.

I mean.... if you want to get Technical, and all.


Why don't you actually do some reading for understanding and show us you can find out on your own? Here's a hint - the microwaves aren't ionizing the air directly.


The Air *IS* becoming Ionized.

The ENERGY FOR IONIZATION is being supplied by the Microwave antenna.


I am quite sure there is an elaborate chemical analysis of the rapid exchange of electrons between discreet gases...

But nonetheless...


The Microwaves are Ionizing the Gas.


No, I'm saying YOU are wrong, and you're once more not bothering to read the material you're barfing up keywords from.


Shouting *THIS GUY IS WRONG* without validating your claims does not leave you in a very credible position, I'm afraid.

If you want to try and debunk me.... Fine.

DO It.


Don't expect me to just accept your Word for it.



I should program a F key for this. If my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.


Cool story Bro.


If I could put a few gigawatts of power through this laser pointer and actually could make it convert that to laser light, then I'd have a super duper death laser! That proves it! Only, it won't, because that's not what it is.


Is that supposed to be some sort of Analogy?


Ok, I got one for you...


Are we talking about one puny research station?

Or are we talking about a Planet Wide grid of these emitters?

rex84.ipbfree.com...


Are we talking about the "Upper Range" of the Gakona Research Facilities power output?

Or are we talking about The Technology that this research station implies.

You know.... on a *CONSPIRACY SITE*


An emitter, or SERIES of emitters *COULD BE CONSTRUCTED* to preform the FEATS that are ascribed to the "HAARP" gakona facility.


And it seems that is the easiest tactic for silencing inquiry... isn't it?


Its *ALL* about HAARP, and the Papers say that HAARP can't do it...

Therefore... by Bizzaro Logic... it CANNOT be done.


That sound about right?

-Edrick



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 01:14 AM
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reply to post by Edrick
 

You say:

The Air *IS* becoming Ionized.
The ENERGY FOR IONIZATION is being supplied by the Microwave antenna.


You then say:

Shouting *THIS GUY IS WRONG* without validating your claims does not leave you in a very credible position, I'm afraid.


Sort of ironic. Where is your validation that microwaves are ionizing the gas? Why is there a burner with a flame in the bottom of the bell jar? Like I said, try it without the flame.
Here's a hint:

When something burns with a flame, electrons are torn from their atoms as the atoms rearrange to form new molecules. Usually they get re-captured by the molecules, and this is one of the reasons why flames glow -- the electrons emit light as they lose energy spiralling in from their paths free through the air to being caught in orbits in the new molecules.

Source
The microwave oven is not ionizing the air and HAARP cannot ionize the air.


[edit on 7/9/2010 by Phage]



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by Phage
 



Sort of ironic. Where is your validation that microwaves are ionizing the gas?


You're telling me that this isn't plasma?



en.wikipedia.org...

In physics and chemistry, plasma is a gas in which a certain portion of the particles are ionized. The presence of a non-negligible number of charge carriers makes the plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields.




When something burns with a flame, electrons are torn from their atoms as the atoms rearrange to form new molecules. Usually they get re-captured by the molecules, and this is one of the reasons why flames glow -- the electrons emit light as they lose energy spiralling in from their paths free through the air to being caught in orbits in the new molecules.


Oh, I see... so what you are saying is that you agree with me.

Thanks.

-Edrick

[edit on 9-7-2010 by Edrick]



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by Edrick
 

No.
The microwaves are not ionizing the air. The flame is creating ions which respond to the microwaves.
Didn't we go through this before? The microwave oven stunt doesn't work without a flame to create ions.



[edit on 7/9/2010 by Phage]



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 03:23 AM
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reply to post by Phage
 


Everything you post assumes you believe what you read from the Goverment sites...

Maybe they don't tell us the whole truth Phage.

Maybe they are doing something different to what they say on their websites...

Can you NOT consider for a second that a Goverment entity may have lied to us???

Hell, I'm pretty damn sure they have in the past,present and sure as hell will in the future.....

I say, stop just believing what you copy/paste.....



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 03:28 AM
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reply to post by virgom129
 

The government doesn't really tell us much about HAARP. The University of Alaska does though. The various scientists who work there do.
www.gi.alaska.edu...
www.gi.alaska.edu...

Can you provide an example of what I copy/paste from "the government"?

[edit on 7/9/2010 by Phage]



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 03:34 AM
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reply to post by Phage
 


Most of the stuff you post is from Goverment financed sites...

Everyone knows that...

Are you trying to say that the US Goverment is NOT involved with the HAARP Project????

That would be wierd considering your previous posts..



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 03:52 AM
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reply to post by virgom129
 

"Most of the stuff" I post. I asked for an example.
When I "copy/paste" something I provide the source. I may sometimes refer to government sources but I don't think "most" of it is.

Actually, the fact that microwaves do not ionize air has nothing to do with the government, it has to do with physics. Of course, since "everyone knows that" everything I post is from the government, I suppose I might be mistaken. Maybe the government is in charge of physics too.

No, I didn't say the government is not involved with HAARP.



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 08:25 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by Edrick
Yes... I would say that it WOULD be a Laser... now that you mention it.

I mean.... if you want to get Technical, and all.


No, it's not. Neon bulbs are not lasing. LEDs are not lasing. Glowing plasma in a plasma etcher is not lasing. The aurora is not lasing.

If you want to get technical, and all.



The Air *IS* becoming Ionized. (yes...but why?)

The ENERGY FOR IONIZATION is being supplied by the Microwave antenna.

(quite indirectly...but how? Hint - it's not causing a quantum state change in the gas by the microwaves contributing a quantum of energy to the gas molecules - microwaves are non-ionizing. There are three ways...)


The Microwaves are Ionizing the Gas. (no)





Shouting *THIS GUY IS WRONG* without validating your claims does not leave you in a very credible position, I'm afraid.


Yet, this is exactly what you did in pretty much every post, no?



If you want to try and debunk me.... Fine.

DO It.


I have, repeatedly. There's only so many ways I can point out to you that you're wrong. You want the van Allen belts to be a big laser, so by god they are! PERIOD!!! No amount of explanation otherwise seems to sink in. You are becoming fairly tiresome.




Cool story Bro.


When you get tired of making loony extrapolations, I'll quit posting it.





Is that supposed to be some sort of Analogy?


It's similar to most of your arguments.




Are we talking about one puny research station?

Or are we talking about a Planet Wide grid of these emitters?


Good Lord. Look, there's also a Planet Wide Grid (I do so love bizarre capitalization) of shortwave radio stations. Obviously, they're in cahoots, since they all operate on about the same frequencies.



Are we talking about the "Upper Range" of the Gakona Research Facilities power output?

Or are we talking about The Technology that this research station implies.

You know.... on a *CONSPIRACY SITE*


What technology - that there are steered beam arrays (WW2) or that there are HF radio transmitters (WW2)? And a good conspiracy requires a legitimate foundation, preferably provable. Not some "I want the van Allen belts to be a big laser so I'm ignoring physics" Dr No death beam fiction device.



An emitter, or SERIES of emitters *COULD BE CONSTRUCTED* to preform the FEATS that are ascribed to the "HAARP" gakona facility.


Obviously, since HAARP does do what it does. That's a tautology.

Now, if your list of 'feats' includes the usual tripe about melting down cars on the other side of the world, controlling everyone's minds, or lasing the van Allen belt, then no, HAARP cannot do that.



And it seems that is the easiest tactic for silencing inquiry... isn't it?


Yeah, but that's because we're all shills for the government, keeping you, the true holder of the secret knowledge, busy whilst our Men In Black brigade seek out your hidden location and subject you to the awesome powers of the Air Loom. Beware!



Its *ALL* about HAARP, and the Papers say that HAARP can't do it...

Therefore... by Bizzaro Logic... it CANNOT be done.


That sound about right?

-Edrick


Pick an "it" you like, and do the maths on the energetics. That's a good starting point.

If you have understanding, you can look at HAARP and know what it can do as far as power output, transmission modes, and frequency ranges, with nothing more than a decent scale image of the antenna elements, and a count of the array, within at least an order of magnitude.

Although I admit it helps if you know what's out there.



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by virgom129
Everything you post assumes you believe what you read from the Goverment sites...

Maybe they don't tell us the whole truth Phage.

Maybe they are doing something different to what they say on their websites..


In terms of basic physics and radio design technique, they don't even have to tell you, if you know what you're looking at. Grant you, I don't expect the average ATSer to be able to do that. But I can, and they're not lying by much if at all. I've also seen the setup: it's what they say.

Now, are they telling you EVERYTHING that goes on there, well, no, the military is also running experiments out there, but you can find out a lot of what happens by reading Geophysical Letters. It may be beyond you, but it's there.



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by Phage
 



No.
The microwaves are not ionizing the air. The flame is creating ions which respond to the microwaves.


Ok, so what you are saying... is that if Two Powerful emitters are AIMED at each other at different points along the surface of the earth...

The REFRACTION


of the Radio Signal


through the Ionosphere and Lower Van alen Belt.


Should put the "Halfway" point between these two emitters... right at the height that official sources indicate.


They're Off axis (the beam paths are slightly off from parallel) interference (one beam is set to 180 out of phase with the other) would produce a spiral shaped interference pattern between the beams.



The concentration of photons within the Constructive interference zone would heat the hydrogen to plasma, and it would begin to glow brightly, due to the current flow.

Thanks!

-Edrick



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by Edrick
reply to post by Phage
 



No.
The microwaves are not ionizing the air. The flame is creating ions which respond to the microwaves.


Ok, so what you are saying... is that if Two Powerful emitters are AIMED at each other at different points along the surface of the earth...


Nope, what he's saying is what I'm saying. Microwaves are non-ionizing. The source of the plasma in a plasma etcher is not by direct ionization. There are three main mechanisms for producing it in that instance, and ionization is not one.

You're welcome.

PS - you can't take two photons of insufficient energy and sum them up to get a larger quantum effect. Really really intense red light doesn't become ionizing because it's intense. Conversely, one photon at, say, gamma ray intensity is sufficient to ionize. It's not the quantity, it's the quality.



posted on Jul, 9 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 



No, it's not. Neon bulbs are not lasing. LEDs are not lasing. Glowing plasma in a plasma etcher is not lasing. The aurora is not lasing.


Something "Lases" when an atom is exited by radiation, and the collapse of the electron orbit in the outer valance shell releases a quanta of light.

When many of these atoms are all releasing their wavefront "In Phase" due to the Gain mechanism (mirror) collimating the wavefronts within the gain medium along a single axis.

The result is a narrow beam of in phase, coherent (in step) narrow spectrum EM radiation.

They are not "Lasing" because they have no Mirror.

Light is Light.

I hate to break it to you.


Yet, this is exactly what you did in pretty much every post, no?


I seem to distinctly remember putting more on this thread than just "Words"




I have, repeatedly. There's only so many ways I can point out to you that you're wrong. You want the van Allen belts to be a big laser, so by god they are! PERIOD!!! No amount of explanation otherwise seems to sink in. You are becoming fairly tiresome.


Well, if that's how you really feel about it.


When you get tired of making loony extrapolations, I'll quit posting it.


And, WHAT, pray tell, compels you to "Debunk" my research?


It's similar to most of your arguments.


I'm pretty sure that is also an analogy.


Good Lord. Look, there's also a Planet Wide Grid (I do so love bizarre capitalization) of shortwave radio stations. Obviously, they're in cahoots, since they all operate on about the same frequencies.


Are you telling me that it *IS NOT POSSIBLE* that all of these emitters could function in parallel?


What technology - that there are steered beam arrays (WW2) or that there are HF radio transmitters (WW2)? And a good conspiracy requires a legitimate foundation, preferably provable. Not some "I want the van Allen belts to be a big laser so I'm ignoring physics" Dr No death beam fiction device.


The Van Allen Belt is a resonance Cavity... this will serve as the mirror.

All I have to do is add the same radio wavelength that the cavity resonates in, and the light will collect, and amplify.

I think that it is doable.



Obviously, since HAARP does do what it does. That's a tautology.

Now, if your list of 'feats' includes the usual tripe about melting down cars on the other side of the world, controlling everyone's minds, or lasing the van Allen belt, then no, HAARP cannot do that.


Oh, just the standard stuff, really....


Heating water, ocean water, underground aquifer water, etc, etc, etc...


Yeah, but that's because we're all shills for the government, keeping you, the true holder of the secret knowledge, busy whilst our Men In Black brigade seek out your hidden location and subject you to the awesome powers of the Air Loom. Beware!


I KNEW IT!!!

LOL!


Pick an "it" you like, and do the maths on the energetics. That's a good starting point.

If you have understanding, you can look at HAARP and know what it can do as far as power output, transmission modes, and frequency ranges, with nothing more than a decent scale image of the antenna elements, and a count of the array, within at least an order of magnitude.

Although I admit it helps if you know what's out there.


Ok, here is the thing.

You know what all that "HAARP" has been ascribed with in the conspiracy community.


Now, SOME of these "Feats" are actually plausible with current science.

It really makes you wonder what's out there, don't it?

-Edrick



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