Tangents aside, you say that:
HAARP produces a coherent beam of energy. This is not true. In a coherent beam (laser, maser), all of the energy produced is in phase. That is not the
case with HAARP. The IRI produces a somewhat directional beam of HF radio energy. It is not coherent.
coherence
In the next paragraph you contradict yourself (now it's a "semi-coherent" beam, but it's not even that). You claim this beam is reflected by the
ionosphere. The purpose of the IRI is not to reflect radio signals off of the ionosphere. It is to have the HF radio energy absorbed by the
ionosphere and heat a volume of it. That is why it is called an ionospheric heater. If the beam were reflected, it would not do what it is supposed to
do.
HAARP can reflect its beam to almost anyplace on the globe. Even if the purpose of the heater beam was to be reflected (it is not), it could not be
reflected to anywhere on Earth. The maximum deflection of the beam from vertical is 30º. We know that the angle of reflection is equal to the angle
of incidence. This means that, at most, a reflected beam from HAARP would end up 60º from Gakona. Reflected from an altitude of 200 km, that hardly
amounts to "anywhere on the globe" and certainly not the White Sea. Because the world is round...it gets a bit more problematic.
It's no trouble to produce a "near microwave frequency 'display'". The IRI transmits high frequency radio at between 2.8 and 10MHz (107m to 20m).
Microwaves are in the hundred gigahertz range (less than 3mm), thousands of times shorter wavelengths than what HAARP produces. HAARP does not use
microwaves. Another thing to note (though it is somewhat irrelevant) is that microwaves do not reflect well off of the ionosphere, they punch right
through it. If they did reflect, there would have to be a lot fewer cell phone towers all over the place. Microwaves are line of sight.
HAARP did not, and cannot, produce anything like the Norway spiral. Never mind the fact that the spiral occurred well outside the atmosphere. No
thermals, not a whole lot of water vapor.
[edit on 6/20/2010 by Phage]
HAARP: A Logistical Study., page 1
Topic started on 20-6-2010 @ 10:05 PM by Edrick
OR
Do Angel's or Devil's play this Harp?
I have read Many discussions over the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program of the Defense Advanced Research Agency...
As well as doing my own research on the matter, and the Physics Involved.
This, is the Story of what I have Discovered.
This is the HAARP facility in Alaska.
The HAARP Facility is a Large Phased Antenna Array.
A Phased Antenna array is a set of antennas grouped in a grid (as shown in the picture).
The TIMING of the wave cycles emitted from each Antenna can be controlled to produce a gradient distributed delay.
This sets up a pattern of interference that causes most of the energy of the broadcast to be focused in direction relative to the timing.
en.wikipedia.org...
Like So:
The preceeding picture is a linear phased array, and thus, can only "Steer" the beam in one Axis (approx 60 deg off center total variance)
A Planar Phased Array, can steer the beam in 2 axis (up/down, left/right)
Thus, the HAARP facility can steer a relatively focused beam in a large range of directions.
Simply by timing the pulses.
This is an interesting site that covers some interesting aspects of Phased Radar systems:
www.radartutorial.eu...
Now... the Stated Goal of HAARP is to study the ionosphere, and I have little doubt that the purpose of the study was to map the precise beam direction changes caused by the phenomenon of Ionospheric Refraction.
(Or, Reflection if you prefer)
This effect occurs due to the different speed of light through various layers of the ionosphere.
The ionosphere's charge varies with layer from the mesosphere.
Since the radio wave is FASTER on top, than the bottom as it rises through the ionosphere, it will eventually curve back downwards, and strike the earth again.
Therefore, the HAARP facility is capable of projecting a Coherent Beam of Electromagnetic Radiation onto any spot on the earth that surrounds it for a certain distance...
The distance is Dependant upon beam angle, and the height of the ionospheric reflection at the specific frequency.
About 50-200 kilometers.
So, using Ionospheric reflection, HAARP can cast a semi-coherent beam of electromagnetic radiation a great distance.
Now, it Gets Freaky!
THIS:
Is the Van Allen Radiation Belt.
A Cavity Region of Hydrogen plasma, separated by Charge/Mass.
These "Shells" are the rough outlines of the Orbital paths of these subatomic particles, given gravitation, charge, and magnetic coupling.
IT is, essentially a charged particle Resonance cavity that is shaped like a doughnut around the earth (twice)
Since the Charge density increases towards the center of the Belt... the same Ionic refraction from earlier ALSO applies... this would in theory, give HAARP a MUCH longer Range than just bouncing off the ionosphere, since it is several orders of magnitude farther away.
This is a problem for beam diffusion, unless very high frequencies are used.
Furthermore, Since the Van Allen Radiation belts are, for all intents and purposes... nearly PERFECT plasma resonance cavities...
The frequency of a circular resonance cavity is Dependant upon the speed of the wave through the propagation material, and its total distance. Circumference)
You have heard that a photon can circle the earth 7 times in one second?
Yeah... it's actually more like 7.83 times per second.
Which is the Schumann Resonance frequency.
7.83 cycles per second...
This puts it in the far radio end of the spectrum.
www.williams.edu...
Because:
299792458 = speed of light in meters per second.
40075000.16 = Circumference of the earth in meters
299,792,458 / 40,075,000 = 7.48078495
So, yeah.... close enough.
Increase the circumference to add in the height of the Ionosphere, and you have your Schumann resonance cavity effect.
All 5 Octaves of it.
THIS:
Is a Sprite.
IT is a high altitude form of lightning that occurs in the upper mesosphere, and lower ionosphere.
en.wikipedia.org...
This charge differential, which we call lightning, is a series of progressive charge steps between the Electron Rich Outer Van Allen Belt, and the Electron Poor Earth.
(High energy plasmas from solar winds that have their electrons stripped off by the Magnetosphere, as their protons spiral inward, which creates the charge imbalance. Also Cosmic ray induced Neutron Production and subsequent decay into a proton near the earths upper atmosphere.)
You could think of it like a Plasma Globe... but in reverse.
This lightning (Short Circuit) produces an EM pulse across the visible spectrum, as the ions in the path of the current flow reach an EXTREMELY HIGH energy level, and radiate at their Blackbody temperatures as they cool down.
Now.... back to HAARP.
A Plasma Torus (doughnut / Hoop) that is contained in a vacuum (space) can be exited by radiation at the frequency that excites the plasma.
Or, at the resonance frequency of the Cavity of that material.
For a Torus the size of the Inner Van Allen belt, this would be below 2 cycles per second.
Our own personal Photon Spheres.
They Sing, you know...
Sorry.... Tangent... Back to HAARP
Since HAARP is capable of generating a fairly controllable beam of Radiation and reflecting it to almost any place on the globe...
It should be no trouble at all to create a near microwave frequency "Display" that heats the surface of the water in a rotating pattern, in order to induce the creation of rising Thermals, that spin around a cold vortex.
Shaped Kinda like this, actually:
Of course... the only way that a HAARP like beam would manifest itself in the sky like that... is if it was being destructively interfered with by another projected wave that was 180 degrees out of sync with the original.
This would create a thin, highly excited region between both of the emissions.
So.... ya know....
-Edrick
[edit on 20-6-2010 by Edrick]
Do Angel's or Devil's play this Harp?
I have read Many discussions over the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program of the Defense Advanced Research Agency...
As well as doing my own research on the matter, and the Physics Involved.
This, is the Story of what I have Discovered.
This is the HAARP facility in Alaska.
The HAARP Facility is a Large Phased Antenna Array.
A Phased Antenna array is a set of antennas grouped in a grid (as shown in the picture).
The TIMING of the wave cycles emitted from each Antenna can be controlled to produce a gradient distributed delay.
This sets up a pattern of interference that causes most of the energy of the broadcast to be focused in direction relative to the timing.
In wave theory, a phased array is a group of antennas in which the relative phases of the respective signals feeding the antennas are varied in such a way that the effective radiation pattern of the array is reinforced in a desired direction and suppressed in undesired directions.
en.wikipedia.org...
Like So:
The preceeding picture is a linear phased array, and thus, can only "Steer" the beam in one Axis (approx 60 deg off center total variance)
A Planar Phased Array, can steer the beam in 2 axis (up/down, left/right)
Thus, the HAARP facility can steer a relatively focused beam in a large range of directions.
Simply by timing the pulses.
This is an interesting site that covers some interesting aspects of Phased Radar systems:
www.radartutorial.eu...
Now... the Stated Goal of HAARP is to study the ionosphere, and I have little doubt that the purpose of the study was to map the precise beam direction changes caused by the phenomenon of Ionospheric Refraction.
(Or, Reflection if you prefer)
This effect occurs due to the different speed of light through various layers of the ionosphere.
The ionosphere's charge varies with layer from the mesosphere.
Since the radio wave is FASTER on top, than the bottom as it rises through the ionosphere, it will eventually curve back downwards, and strike the earth again.
Therefore, the HAARP facility is capable of projecting a Coherent Beam of Electromagnetic Radiation onto any spot on the earth that surrounds it for a certain distance...
The distance is Dependant upon beam angle, and the height of the ionospheric reflection at the specific frequency.
About 50-200 kilometers.
So, using Ionospheric reflection, HAARP can cast a semi-coherent beam of electromagnetic radiation a great distance.
Now, it Gets Freaky!
THIS:
Is the Van Allen Radiation Belt.
A Cavity Region of Hydrogen plasma, separated by Charge/Mass.
These "Shells" are the rough outlines of the Orbital paths of these subatomic particles, given gravitation, charge, and magnetic coupling.
IT is, essentially a charged particle Resonance cavity that is shaped like a doughnut around the earth (twice)
Since the Charge density increases towards the center of the Belt... the same Ionic refraction from earlier ALSO applies... this would in theory, give HAARP a MUCH longer Range than just bouncing off the ionosphere, since it is several orders of magnitude farther away.
This is a problem for beam diffusion, unless very high frequencies are used.
Furthermore, Since the Van Allen Radiation belts are, for all intents and purposes... nearly PERFECT plasma resonance cavities...
The frequency of a circular resonance cavity is Dependant upon the speed of the wave through the propagation material, and its total distance. Circumference)
You have heard that a photon can circle the earth 7 times in one second?
Yeah... it's actually more like 7.83 times per second.
Which is the Schumann Resonance frequency.
7.83 cycles per second...
This puts it in the far radio end of the spectrum.
www.williams.edu...
Because:
299792458 = speed of light in meters per second.
40075000.16 = Circumference of the earth in meters
299,792,458 / 40,075,000 = 7.48078495
So, yeah.... close enough.
Increase the circumference to add in the height of the Ionosphere, and you have your Schumann resonance cavity effect.
All 5 Octaves of it.
THIS:
Is a Sprite.
IT is a high altitude form of lightning that occurs in the upper mesosphere, and lower ionosphere.
en.wikipedia.org...
This charge differential, which we call lightning, is a series of progressive charge steps between the Electron Rich Outer Van Allen Belt, and the Electron Poor Earth.
(High energy plasmas from solar winds that have their electrons stripped off by the Magnetosphere, as their protons spiral inward, which creates the charge imbalance. Also Cosmic ray induced Neutron Production and subsequent decay into a proton near the earths upper atmosphere.)
You could think of it like a Plasma Globe... but in reverse.
This lightning (Short Circuit) produces an EM pulse across the visible spectrum, as the ions in the path of the current flow reach an EXTREMELY HIGH energy level, and radiate at their Blackbody temperatures as they cool down.
Now.... back to HAARP.
A Plasma Torus (doughnut / Hoop) that is contained in a vacuum (space) can be exited by radiation at the frequency that excites the plasma.
Or, at the resonance frequency of the Cavity of that material.
For a Torus the size of the Inner Van Allen belt, this would be below 2 cycles per second.
Our own personal Photon Spheres.
They Sing, you know...
Sorry.... Tangent... Back to HAARP
Since HAARP is capable of generating a fairly controllable beam of Radiation and reflecting it to almost any place on the globe...
It should be no trouble at all to create a near microwave frequency "Display" that heats the surface of the water in a rotating pattern, in order to induce the creation of rising Thermals, that spin around a cold vortex.
Shaped Kinda like this, actually:
Of course... the only way that a HAARP like beam would manifest itself in the sky like that... is if it was being destructively interfered with by another projected wave that was 180 degrees out of sync with the original.
This would create a thin, highly excited region between both of the emissions.
So.... ya know....
-Edrick
[edit on 20-6-2010 by Edrick]
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 01:15 AM by virgom129
reply to post by Phage
What has been spent so far on HAARP and what has it achieved??
All I hear is what it cant do, or isnt trying to do....
What is it capable of regardless of if its doing it or not?
What has been spent so far on HAARP and what has it achieved??
All I hear is what it cant do, or isnt trying to do....
What is it capable of regardless of if its doing it or not?
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 01:50 AM by Oneolddude
Well,so much for your research.If this facility could do just a fraction of what it has been alleged to do,would it be even known about?
Think about that for just one rational moment.
That said,very few people know that there is a 2nd secret site in Alaska.
Of course nobody knows that because the one the public knows about is designed to lead people astray.
Don't believe me? Read this.
Think about that for just one rational moment.
That said,very few people know that there is a 2nd secret site in Alaska.
Of course nobody knows that because the one the public knows about is designed to lead people astray.
Don't believe me? Read this.
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 01:55 AM by Phage
reply to post by virgom129
Not really a lot (in comparison to other DOD funded projects) has been spent. A lot has been learned about what goes on in the ionosphere. Some of it has the potential of producing methods of protecting our assets from geomagnetic activity. Some of it has the potential of protecting our military assets from the prying eyes of our enemies. Some of the early ideas haven't panned out but some new possibilities have arisen. It really is pure scientific research at its best. None of it really translates well to weaponry as such. The problem is that it is pretty complex science that doesn't translate to "nuts and bolts" stuff that is easy to explain.
Here's a "sampler" (as of a few years ago). There are hundreds of papers, written by hundreds of scientists from universities and other institutions all over the world. HAARP is a research facility. A good one.
www.gi.alaska.edu...
Not really a lot (in comparison to other DOD funded projects) has been spent. A lot has been learned about what goes on in the ionosphere. Some of it has the potential of producing methods of protecting our assets from geomagnetic activity. Some of it has the potential of protecting our military assets from the prying eyes of our enemies. Some of the early ideas haven't panned out but some new possibilities have arisen. It really is pure scientific research at its best. None of it really translates well to weaponry as such. The problem is that it is pretty complex science that doesn't translate to "nuts and bolts" stuff that is easy to explain.
Here's a "sampler" (as of a few years ago). There are hundreds of papers, written by hundreds of scientists from universities and other institutions all over the world. HAARP is a research facility. A good one.
www.gi.alaska.edu...
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 01:57 AM by Phage
reply to post by Oneolddude
Poker Flat is hardly a secret. It is not even operated by the government.
www.pfrr.alaska.edu...
Poker Flat is hardly a secret. It is not even operated by the government.
Poker Flat Research Range is the world's only scientific rocket launching facility owned by a university. Poker Flat is located approximately 30 miles north of Fairbanks, Alaska and is operated by the University of Alaska's Geophysical Institute under contract to NASA's Wallops Flight Facility, which is part of the Goddard Space Flight Center. In addition to launching sounding rockets, Poker Flat is home to many scientific instruments designed to study the arctic atmosphere and ionosphere.
www.pfrr.alaska.edu...
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 02:03 AM by virgom129
reply to post by Phage
You sure they have nothing to do with Poker Flats???
From the bio you posted me..
12. Anonymous. (1994). Establishing the National Polar Radio Science Consortium. (Report No.
ADA2792307). University of Alaska Fairbanks, Geophysical Institute, Fairbanks, AK.
BTW, thanks for the link Phage..I will read up a bit.
You sure they have nothing to do with Poker Flats???
From the bio you posted me..
12. Anonymous. (1994). Establishing the National Polar Radio Science Consortium. (Report No.
ADA2792307). University of Alaska Fairbanks, Geophysical Institute, Fairbanks, AK.
BTW, thanks for the link Phage..I will read up a bit.
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 02:27 AM by Phage
reply to post by virgom129
HAARP and Poker Flat have engaged in cooperative research projects. HAARP has radar which is used to watch the rockets launched from Poker Flat. Poker Flat has radar which is used to study the effects of HAARP's IRI.
Neither is a secret facility.
HAARP and Poker Flat have engaged in cooperative research projects. HAARP has radar which is used to watch the rockets launched from Poker Flat. Poker Flat has radar which is used to study the effects of HAARP's IRI.
Neither is a secret facility.
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 02:48 AM by Edrick
reply to post by Phage
Yeah... I should proofread better... I know.
So... the pattern of In-phase wave fronts that coalesce into a narrow focus is.... Not Coherent?
I was under the assumption that Additive interference both requires and implies coherence of the Electromagnetic Waves...
Otherwise they would cancel out.
It is also not the purpose of a Wrench to hammer in a nail... but it still works as such.
Atmospheric reFRACTION is a bending of light through a medium of varying refractive index.
Ionized layers of the atmosphere HAVE such properties. and Refract electromagnetic waves in this fashion.
I think I already covered this when speaking of the Van Allen radiation belts.... I put a picture there and everything!
Yeah.... you might have to use multiple "Grazing" bounces off the ionosphere to make it that far past the horizon....
But the Van Allen Radiation belt is MUCH higher... several Earth Radii, in fact.
Is shortwave Radio not "Near" microwave?
Couple hundred thousand cycles per second WILL refract off the ionosphere...
Microwave gets bent a little... but not much.
I guess that's why they are scattered across the globe then?
It Lacks the Capability to project radio waves in spiral patterns?
Really?
-Edrick
Tangents aside, you say that:
HAARP produces a coherent beam of energy. This is not true....
In the next paragraph you contradict yourself (now it's a "semi-coherent" beam
Yeah... I should proofread better... I know.
but it's not even that
So... the pattern of In-phase wave fronts that coalesce into a narrow focus is.... Not Coherent?
I was under the assumption that Additive interference both requires and implies coherence of the Electromagnetic Waves...
Otherwise they would cancel out.
You claim this beam is reflected by the ionosphere. The purpose of the IRI is not to reflect radio signals off of the ionosphere.
It is also not the purpose of a Wrench to hammer in a nail... but it still works as such.
Atmospheric reFRACTION is a bending of light through a medium of varying refractive index.
Ionized layers of the atmosphere HAVE such properties. and Refract electromagnetic waves in this fashion.
HAARP can reflect its beam to almost anyplace on the globe. Even if the purpose of the heater beam was to be reflected (it is not), it could not be reflected to anywhere on Earth. The maximum deflection of the beam from vertical is 30º. We know that the angle of reflection is equal to the angle of incidence. This means that, at most, a reflected beam from HAARP would end up 60º from Gakona. Reflected from an altitude of 200 km
I think I already covered this when speaking of the Van Allen radiation belts.... I put a picture there and everything!
Because the world is round...it gets a bit more problematic.
Yeah.... you might have to use multiple "Grazing" bounces off the ionosphere to make it that far past the horizon....
But the Van Allen Radiation belt is MUCH higher... several Earth Radii, in fact.
It's no trouble to produce a "near microwave frequency 'display'". The IRI transmits high frequency radio at between 2.8 and 10MHz (107m to 20m). Microwaves are in the hundred gigahertz range (less than 3mm), thousands of times shorter wavelengths than what HAARP produces. HAARP does not use microwaves. Another thing to note (though it is somewhat irrelevant) is that microwaves do not reflect well off of the ionosphere, they punch right through it. If they did reflect, there would have to be a lot fewer cell phone towers all over the place. Microwaves are line of sight.
Is shortwave Radio not "Near" microwave?
Couple hundred thousand cycles per second WILL refract off the ionosphere...
Microwave gets bent a little... but not much.
it could not be reflected to anywhere on Earth. The maximum deflection of the beam from vertical is 30º
I guess that's why they are scattered across the globe then?
HAARP did not, and cannot, produce anything like the Norway spiral.
It Lacks the Capability to project radio waves in spiral patterns?
Really?
-Edrick
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 03:03 AM by virgom129
reply to post by Edrick
Nice work....
Maybe you can tell us what HAARP and all the other places around the globe ARE capable of...
Not what it says they are trying to do but what COULD be done using this equipment..
BTW, I do not think a rocket caused the Norway spiral...
I don't know what did but it was too perfect for a rocket...
Nice work....
Maybe you can tell us what HAARP and all the other places around the globe ARE capable of...
Not what it says they are trying to do but what COULD be done using this equipment..
BTW, I do not think a rocket caused the Norway spiral...
I don't know what did but it was too perfect for a rocket...
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 03:14 AM by Edrick
reply to post by virgom129
Thank you!
Projecting a beam of electromagnetic radiation upon a distant area.
WHAT it could do... Depends upon the Target, and the POWER of the signal.
A couple kilowatts is not going to do that much.... but a GigaWatt?
It could melt some ice....
It could heat some water... or oil...
It might take a while... but it is possible.
With Several Emitter Arrays in conjunction... you could do some Damage.
-Edrick
Nice work....
Thank you!
Maybe you can tell us what HAARP and all the other places around the globe ARE capable of...
Not what it says they are trying to do but what COULD be done using this equipment.
Projecting a beam of electromagnetic radiation upon a distant area.
WHAT it could do... Depends upon the Target, and the POWER of the signal.
A couple kilowatts is not going to do that much.... but a GigaWatt?
It could melt some ice....
It could heat some water... or oil...
It might take a while... but it is possible.
With Several Emitter Arrays in conjunction... you could do some Damage.
-Edrick
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 04:13 AM by Phage
reply to post by Edrick
Phased synchronisation produces pulses of phase reinforced energy. When the signals from the individual transmitters are in phase the signal is reinforced. But there is no continuous synchronization, at times it is synchronized and at times it is not. This is different from a truly coherent beam which is essentially a single wave of electromagnetic radiation. A coherent beam does not spread unless it passes through a medium which diffuses it. It maintains its energy. The beam from a phased array spreads appreciably, losing energy as it does so.
A wrench makes a lousy hammer. The ionosphere is an unstable and highly variable environment. Its refractive characteristics are unpredictable. Where are these "grazing" bounces going to occur? Between the ionosphere and Earth's surface? Between the layers of the ionosphere? Out of the dark side of the ionosphere, through to the highly energized day side? And these multiple bounces are going to occur without attenuation?
No, shortwave radio is not "near" microwave. As I said, it is of thousands of times longer wavelengths. Tens of megahertz for HF frequencies as compared to hundreds of gigahertz for microwaves.
The animation you show is not radiation from the HAARP transmitter. It represents the propagation of secondary ELF radiation induced by HAARPs IRI (above Gakona). The simulation shows how vertical lines of magnetic force in the Earth's magnetic field act as a waveguide.
wwwppd.nrl.navy.mil...
Did you notice the time span of the simulation? Three thousand nanoseconds. That's 0.000003 seconds to cover the width of Alaska. Does that sound like the Norway spiral? ELF radiation is even farther from microwave radiation than HF. Pretty low energy stuff. It's not very good for heating anything (in or out of the atmosphere) and the best HAARP has been able to produce by "wiggling" the electrojet is about 30 watts (on a good day). There seems to be a saturation effect.
www.vlf.ece.ufl.edu...
Phased synchronisation produces pulses of phase reinforced energy. When the signals from the individual transmitters are in phase the signal is reinforced. But there is no continuous synchronization, at times it is synchronized and at times it is not. This is different from a truly coherent beam which is essentially a single wave of electromagnetic radiation. A coherent beam does not spread unless it passes through a medium which diffuses it. It maintains its energy. The beam from a phased array spreads appreciably, losing energy as it does so.
A wrench makes a lousy hammer. The ionosphere is an unstable and highly variable environment. Its refractive characteristics are unpredictable. Where are these "grazing" bounces going to occur? Between the ionosphere and Earth's surface? Between the layers of the ionosphere? Out of the dark side of the ionosphere, through to the highly energized day side? And these multiple bounces are going to occur without attenuation?
No, shortwave radio is not "near" microwave. As I said, it is of thousands of times longer wavelengths. Tens of megahertz for HF frequencies as compared to hundreds of gigahertz for microwaves.
The animation you show is not radiation from the HAARP transmitter. It represents the propagation of secondary ELF radiation induced by HAARPs IRI (above Gakona). The simulation shows how vertical lines of magnetic force in the Earth's magnetic field act as a waveguide.
The time varying current launches waves both up and down the Earth's magnetic field. In the simulations shown here, we start with a time-varying current and study the downward propagating waves and how they couple into the Earth-ionospheric wave guide.
wwwppd.nrl.navy.mil...
Did you notice the time span of the simulation? Three thousand nanoseconds. That's 0.000003 seconds to cover the width of Alaska. Does that sound like the Norway spiral? ELF radiation is even farther from microwave radiation than HF. Pretty low energy stuff. It's not very good for heating anything (in or out of the atmosphere) and the best HAARP has been able to produce by "wiggling" the electrojet is about 30 watts (on a good day). There seems to be a saturation effect.
www.vlf.ece.ufl.edu...
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 04:20 AM by virgom129
reply to post by Phage
Nice reply Phage...
Off topic but, do you stand by the idea that a rocket caused the Norway spiral???
I just can't get my head around the fact that it seemed to defy gravity if it was caused by a rocket...
Surely a rocket would have left an effect with at least a slight variation at the apex due to gravity....
Even an "out of control" rocket is effected by gravity...
Nice reply Phage...
Off topic but, do you stand by the idea that a rocket caused the Norway spiral???
I just can't get my head around the fact that it seemed to defy gravity if it was caused by a rocket...
Surely a rocket would have left an effect with at least a slight variation at the apex due to gravity....
Even an "out of control" rocket is effected by gravity...
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 04:25 AM by Phage
reply to post by Edrick
HAARP, with all its transmitters operating, can produce a maximum of 3.6MW. At the surface that is spread over an area of about 33 acres. This yields a power density of 2.5 watts per square foot. That isn't going to warm cold toast.
At an altitude of 100 km the beam has spread to an area of 247,000 acres and has a power density of about .0002 watts per square foot.
[edit on 6/21/2010 by Phage]
HAARP, with all its transmitters operating, can produce a maximum of 3.6MW. At the surface that is spread over an area of about 33 acres. This yields a power density of 2.5 watts per square foot. That isn't going to warm cold toast.
At an altitude of 100 km the beam has spread to an area of 247,000 acres and has a power density of about .0002 watts per square foot.
[edit on 6/21/2010 by Phage]
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 03:54 PM by Edrick
reply to post by Phage
Yes... this is why Semi-Coherent is more correct than coherent... I think we already discussed this earlier.
I'm afraid that you are wrong there....
Lasers spread through beam divergence, and I'm sure that you are aware of the phenomenon.
IT is Dependant upon wavelength.
Yeah... but it gets the job DONE.
Unstable?
Sure...
Unpredictable?
Hardly. We know that the ionosphere and the wave propagation height changes on a daily cycle, influenced by the changing position of the sun relative to the earth.
I mean... we CAN predict its actions...
Not with the GREATEST reliability.... but we Can.
Er... inside Both.
The refraction of waves occurs due to the changing speed of light in the different layers of the ionosphere.
The top of the wave moves faster than the bottom... so, it curves back.
That's impossible, and you know it.
Compared to the REST of the electromagnetic spectrum... *IT IS*
Do you see the word "Radio" next to the word "Microwave"?
Would you say that they are nearer to each-other than say... Radio and Gamma?
So, you are saying that it couldn't POSSIBLY look like a spiral, because it is not the HARP FIELD that produces the spiral, but merely an atmospheric effect OF the harp emissions?
Which looks like a spiral?
Did you notice the frequency?
You do realize that light is a rather fast little guy, right?
Yeah.... thanks for the links!
so, basically what HAARP is saying, is that radiation at a certain frequency, that is projected into the ionosphere will create a rotating Circular area of charged plasma, that emits energy in the electromagnetic spectrum!
WOW, SO COOL!
That would make kind of a.... spiral... pattern... wouldn't it?
Are you trying to tell me that those metal bars can only transmit at a certain power level?
They couldn't possibly.... I dont know... use a LARGER GENERATOR?
Are you saying that they couldn't *THEORETICALLY* just run more juice through the radio circuit?
I'm pretty sure that I have seen Helicon Antennas with a power outputs of much higher than that... and they were smaller.
So... yeah.
Yeah... and there are around 140 antennas in that array... meaning that each element would only be producing like 25 kilowatts.
Are you trying to tell me that *THAT* is the maximum possible power that can be pumped through an antenna?
Seriously?
Because YOU know that is not true.
And what is the power density at that distance if each transmitter is measured in megawatts, instead of kilowatts?
-Edrick
But there is no continuous synchronization, at times it is synchronized and at times it is not.
Yes... this is why Semi-Coherent is more correct than coherent... I think we already discussed this earlier.
This is different from a truly coherent beam which is essentially a single wave of electromagnetic radiation. A coherent beam does not spread unless it passes through a medium which diffuses it.
I'm afraid that you are wrong there....
Lasers spread through beam divergence, and I'm sure that you are aware of the phenomenon.
IT is Dependant upon wavelength.
A wrench makes a lousy hammer.
Yeah... but it gets the job DONE.
The ionosphere is an unstable and highly variable environment. Its refractive characteristics are unpredictable.
Unstable?
Sure...
Unpredictable?
Hardly. We know that the ionosphere and the wave propagation height changes on a daily cycle, influenced by the changing position of the sun relative to the earth.
I mean... we CAN predict its actions...
Not with the GREATEST reliability.... but we Can.
Where are these "grazing" bounces going to occur? Between the ionosphere and Earth's surface?
Er... inside Both.
The refraction of waves occurs due to the changing speed of light in the different layers of the ionosphere.
The top of the wave moves faster than the bottom... so, it curves back.
And these multiple bounces are going to occur without attenuation?
That's impossible, and you know it.
No, shortwave radio is not "near" microwave.
Compared to the REST of the electromagnetic spectrum... *IT IS*
Do you see the word "Radio" next to the word "Microwave"?
Would you say that they are nearer to each-other than say... Radio and Gamma?
The animation you show is not radiation from the HAARP transmitter. It represents the propagation of secondary ELF radiation induced by HAARPs IRI (above Gakona).
So, you are saying that it couldn't POSSIBLY look like a spiral, because it is not the HARP FIELD that produces the spiral, but merely an atmospheric effect OF the harp emissions?
Which looks like a spiral?
Did you notice the time span of the simulation?
Did you notice the frequency?
That's 0.000003 seconds to cover the width of Alaska. Does that sound like the Norway spiral?
You do realize that light is a rather fast little guy, right?
The heated region is typically at 75 km (though this depends upon the carrier frequency) and can be 30 km in diameter and a few km thick. Viewed from above (see Figure 1b) the heated region is a roughly circular patch.
Yeah.... thanks for the links!
so, basically what HAARP is saying, is that radiation at a certain frequency, that is projected into the ionosphere will create a rotating Circular area of charged plasma, that emits energy in the electromagnetic spectrum!
WOW, SO COOL!
That would make kind of a.... spiral... pattern... wouldn't it?
HAARP, with all its transmitters operating, can produce a maximum of 3.6MW
Are you trying to tell me that those metal bars can only transmit at a certain power level?
They couldn't possibly.... I dont know... use a LARGER GENERATOR?
Are you saying that they couldn't *THEORETICALLY* just run more juice through the radio circuit?
I'm pretty sure that I have seen Helicon Antennas with a power outputs of much higher than that... and they were smaller.
So... yeah.
3.6MW
Yeah... and there are around 140 antennas in that array... meaning that each element would only be producing like 25 kilowatts.
Are you trying to tell me that *THAT* is the maximum possible power that can be pumped through an antenna?
Seriously?
Because YOU know that is not true.
At an altitude of 100 km the beam has spread to an area of 247,000 acres and has a power density of about .0002 watts per square foot.
And what is the power density at that distance if each transmitter is measured in megawatts, instead of kilowatts?
-Edrick
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 04:40 PM by Phage
reply to post by Edrick
Compared to the size of the Milky Way, the Solar System is "near" Centauri. We aren't talking about the entire electromagnetic spectrum, we are talking about radio frequencies. Within the spectrum of radio frequencies microwaves are not close to high frequency. HAARP does not transmit microwaves, visible light, or gamma rays.
static.howstuffworks.com...
Once again, the simulation does not show atmospheric effects. It shows the propagation of ELF radiation outward from the area in the ionosphere where it is produced. Did the Norway spiral spread at the speed of light?
No, HAARP does not create a "rotating circular area of charged plasma". It creates a roughly circular area of heated ions (which are pre-existing, the heater just warms them up). The affected area of the ionosphere does not rotate. When the electrojet encounters this area it undergoes slight changes, it "wiggles". It is the electrojet, not the affected area of the ionosphere which produces the ELF radiation. By modulating the heater signal, the affected area induces ELF radiation by the electrojet.
www.vlf.ece.ufl.edu...
There are 180 antennas in the array. Each antenna is driven by two transmitters. Each transmitter can produce 10kW.
www.haarp.alaska.edu...
Increasing power input to the transmitters will not increase power output, that is not how transmitters work. HAARP's maximum is 3.6MW.
[edit on 6/21/2010 by Phage]
Compared to the size of the Milky Way, the Solar System is "near" Centauri. We aren't talking about the entire electromagnetic spectrum, we are talking about radio frequencies. Within the spectrum of radio frequencies microwaves are not close to high frequency. HAARP does not transmit microwaves, visible light, or gamma rays.
static.howstuffworks.com...
Once again, the simulation does not show atmospheric effects. It shows the propagation of ELF radiation outward from the area in the ionosphere where it is produced. Did the Norway spiral spread at the speed of light?
No, HAARP does not create a "rotating circular area of charged plasma". It creates a roughly circular area of heated ions (which are pre-existing, the heater just warms them up). The affected area of the ionosphere does not rotate. When the electrojet encounters this area it undergoes slight changes, it "wiggles". It is the electrojet, not the affected area of the ionosphere which produces the ELF radiation. By modulating the heater signal, the affected area induces ELF radiation by the electrojet.
Periodic heating of the ionospheric region through which these currents flow with an HF transmitter modulates the conductivity of the region and, in turn, modulates these naturally-forming (and pre-existing) currents, constituting what amounts to a giant radiating antenna at »60-100 km altitude.
www.vlf.ece.ufl.edu...
There are 180 antennas in the array. Each antenna is driven by two transmitters. Each transmitter can produce 10kW.
www.haarp.alaska.edu...
Increasing power input to the transmitters will not increase power output, that is not how transmitters work. HAARP's maximum is 3.6MW.
[edit on 6/21/2010 by Phage]
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 05:08 PM by Edrick
reply to post by Phage
Yeah... I'm glad you see my point.
Radio waves that are NEAR microwaves perhaps?
As opposed to the Colossal radio waves with cycles measured in hours, or days.
Maybe I'm missing the part where Radiation spreading outward from an area of the ionosphere is not an "Atmospheric Effect"
I Don't know... do you have a picture of the norway spiral in VHF radio?
heated ions are a form of plasma.
Plasma is when a gas is IONIZED and separated into a cloud of disassociated ions.
You just said that HAARP produces a display similar to one that *I* just said that it did...
Oh, seriously.... you are not listening.
Take a look at THIS:
Do you see that spiral?
Did you know that *IT* is not spinning either?
Yeah... it is just a pattern of lights on your monitor that APPEAR to be spinning....
Are we now on the same page, phage?
So you know for a fact that they do not have transmitters that are more powerful than what they state they have?
Buried underground hooked up to a nuclear reactor or something?
Are you saying that a power increase *CANNOT* happen, or are you saying that the Government SAYS that is not what *IS* happening?
Just in-case you don't remember... this Thread is about LOGISTICS....
So... in that particular idiom.
-Edrick
Compared to the size of the Milky Way, the Solar System is "near" Centauri.
Yeah... I'm glad you see my point.
Radio waves that are NEAR microwaves perhaps?
As opposed to the Colossal radio waves with cycles measured in hours, or days.
Once again, the simulation does not show atmospheric effects. It shows the propagation of ELF radiation outward from the area in the ionosphere where it is produced.
Maybe I'm missing the part where Radiation spreading outward from an area of the ionosphere is not an "Atmospheric Effect"
Did the Norway spiral spread at the speed of light?
I Don't know... do you have a picture of the norway spiral in VHF radio?
No, HAARP does not create a "rotating circular area of charged plasma". It creates a roughly circular area of heated ions.
heated ions are a form of plasma.
Plasma is when a gas is IONIZED and separated into a cloud of disassociated ions.
You just said that HAARP produces a display similar to one that *I* just said that it did...
The affected area of the ionosphere does not rotate.
Oh, seriously.... you are not listening.
Take a look at THIS:
Do you see that spiral?
Did you know that *IT* is not spinning either?
Yeah... it is just a pattern of lights on your monitor that APPEAR to be spinning....
Are we now on the same page, phage?
Increasing power input to the transmitters will not increase power output, that is not how transmitters work. HAARP's maximum is 3.6MW.
So you know for a fact that they do not have transmitters that are more powerful than what they state they have?
Buried underground hooked up to a nuclear reactor or something?
Are you saying that a power increase *CANNOT* happen, or are you saying that the Government SAYS that is not what *IS* happening?
Just in-case you don't remember... this Thread is about LOGISTICS....
So... in that particular idiom.
-Edrick
reply posted on 21-6-2010 @ 05:52 PM by Phage
reply to post by Edrick
Please tell me more about radio waves with periods of hours or days. That's something I was not aware of.
Radiation spreads. In the presence of magnetic fields, the ELF radiation is guided by those fields. The simulation is not showing changes to the atmosphere, it is not an atmospheric effect. It is showing the patterns that the ELF radiation follows as it propagates from its source. The ELF radiation is not affecting the atmosphere and it certainly does not produce visible effects.
I know what ions are. I know what plasma is. Please show me where I said that HAARP produces a display of any sort.
The area affected by HAARP does not rotate. But you are correct, the Norway spiral did not rotate either. The effluent from the rocket expanded radially from its source, at the speed at which it was ejected.
So, you start with a few real facts about HAARP but then you start working in circles. When shown that the facts do not fit your idea you resort to speculating about its "true" capabilities in order to "prove" that it can do what you think it can do. A Nuclear reactor? In Alaska? Northern Canada? Maybe a secret reactor built just to power HAARP? If that's the case why is HAARP not a classified facility? The hundreds of scientists (from around the world) and students who work there know the equipment. Why would they be allowed to work in such a secretive environment? Why would they be allowed to publish detailed articles about what they do? Try to find the same volume of publicly available work published from a truly secret facility, like this one for example.
[edit on 6/21/2010 by Phage]
Please tell me more about radio waves with periods of hours or days. That's something I was not aware of.
Radiation spreads. In the presence of magnetic fields, the ELF radiation is guided by those fields. The simulation is not showing changes to the atmosphere, it is not an atmospheric effect. It is showing the patterns that the ELF radiation follows as it propagates from its source. The ELF radiation is not affecting the atmosphere and it certainly does not produce visible effects.
You just said that HAARP produces a display similar to one that *I* just said that it did...
I know what ions are. I know what plasma is. Please show me where I said that HAARP produces a display of any sort.
so, basically what HAARP is saying, is that radiation at a certain frequency, that is projected into the ionosphere will create a rotating Circular area of charged plasma, that emits energy in the electromagnetic spectrum!
The area affected by HAARP does not rotate. But you are correct, the Norway spiral did not rotate either. The effluent from the rocket expanded radially from its source, at the speed at which it was ejected.
So, you start with a few real facts about HAARP but then you start working in circles. When shown that the facts do not fit your idea you resort to speculating about its "true" capabilities in order to "prove" that it can do what you think it can do. A Nuclear reactor? In Alaska? Northern Canada? Maybe a secret reactor built just to power HAARP? If that's the case why is HAARP not a classified facility? The hundreds of scientists (from around the world) and students who work there know the equipment. Why would they be allowed to work in such a secretive environment? Why would they be allowed to publish detailed articles about what they do? Try to find the same volume of publicly available work published from a truly secret facility, like this one for example.
[edit on 6/21/2010 by Phage]
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