QUESTION: For Palestinians and Israelis

reply to post by LittleSecret


Hamas uses RPGs, AK74s and 47, M16s, sager, cornet, millan, metis and fagot anti tank missiles, they also have tons of explosives which they use to rig just about anything, they use mortars of every variety, grenades, etc.
They're greatest weapon is the terrain in which they fight- It's rigged, full of alleys, rooftops, and tight spaces.
As for their rockets- They usually have 10-20 kg of explosives in them. What's worse is that it's full of shrapnel. What does it do? Look up some pictures.
Don't trivialize this conflict.
Why were they attacked for these fire crackers?
Imagine I had a gun, a really #ty gun that only shoots once every 100 times I pull the trigger.
Imagine I point it at your face 3 times a day and pull the trigger.
How would you feel after 100 times?
How would you feel after 9000 times? (I know you'd be dead, just go with the analogy.. )
How would you feel if I was pointing it at your mother? Or best friend?

Would you not have done something to stop me? Would you not have tried to take the gun out of my hands?

Why aren't there more dead Israelis? Because their government protects them.
Why are there more dead Palestinians? Because their government puts them in the line of fire.
Period.

With respect,
Eliad.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by LittleSecret

 

You're talking about events that had happened 10 years ago. Much has changed.
Fatah stopped resisting because Arafat, its militant leader, died.

No because just like before, Fatah seems to have fallen for Zionist hope, but that hope was given to them previously also, and it shattered all their dreams over and over again.

Because it stopped resisting Israel has pulled out most of the checkpoints, it gives the fatah tens of millions of dollars each month to rebuild, it has a police force of its own, a government, and the only thing stopping it from reaching its full potential are those damn settlements which will be removed soon hopefully.

Most Palestinians see Fatah as corrupt, and it has been proven over and over again that they are corrupt, for a corrupt government to stay in power, it must do the bidding of external forces, hence Israel and the West.

Don't forget Hamas was chosen by the people, Democratically, and no the votes weren't rigged .

The west bank is flourishing, it has night clubs and restaurants.
It's not prefect, but it's headed in the right direction.

Ahh your West mentality is showing, night clubs? Restaurants? And Gaza is in a blockade, wow, I expected them to flourish too by now, and wait a second, Gaza got destroyed before the blockade. So connect the dots.

This tension that you speak of started when hamas started shooting fatah activists in the street.
This made all of fatah leave the Gaza strip..
I'm pretty sure they're pissed off as it is.

No it began when Hamas won the election and the Western world didn't want to see Hamas as a legitimate government for Palestinian people because they were too legitimate.

The West and Israel doesn't want a government which serves Palestinians, that would be ludicrous.

And wasn't the building in the settlements frozen?

With respect,
Eliad.

www.presstv.ir...

reply to post by Eliad


No, no, not ak47 ^^

What are you talking about, we are talking about Jets, Tanks, Drones, Missiles, White Phosphorous, Nuclear Weapons, and most are latest models..

Please, please, don't demean Israel by trying to support them.

Palestinian rockets are home made, get it? I make home made fire works also, and sometimes I get injured by it.

Once again, how many people get killed in car crashes in Israel?

How many die from Fire Works?

Don't even try to twist this lol

-Israel has continued its occupation (which gives Palestinians the right to resist)

-Israel has continued its settlement expansion (which gives Palestinians the right to resist)

-Israel has continued the blockade (which gives Palestinians the right to resist)

-Israel has continued the murder of innocent civilians, infact it was charged with war crimes not long ago (which gives Palestinians the right to resist)

-Israel has continued to absorb all important resources for itself (which gives Palestinians the right to resist)

The Palestinian people have many reasons which gives them the right to resist Israeli oppression.

-Israel was charged with war crimes, that is why so many innocent Palestinians get killed.

-Palestinians have no real weapon to be of any security threat to Israel, that is why Israel has so little innocent civilians deaths.

reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth


Because I believe Israel controls America and not the other way around.

Turkey's regional popularity soars, find out why?

reply to post by LittleSecret


You think my comments applied only to the Palestinians?

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by LittleSecret

 

You think my comments applied only to the Palestinians?

Nope, Jews were forced to go to a hostile environment because of Europeans.

In the end I'm talking about justice.

No justice no peace.

No truth no justice.

Connect the dots.

reply to post by LittleSecret



President Obama has absolutely nothing to gain from the continuing hostilities between the Israeli's and Palestinians. I'm sure he was just as frustrated as you were over the flotilla incident.

“If the U.S. doesn’t have a close relationship with Israel, it will be harder, not easier, to get it to withdraw from certain territories in the West Bank because an Israel that is not secure will not take risks for peace,”

Forget about my western mentality for a moment and consider this: Again I ask the question, What does President Obama have to gain politically by the continuing hostilities between Israeli's and Palestinians?........the answer, NOT A DAMED THING!

Every US President since Truman would have loved to have brokered a true and lasting peace in the region. They would have loved to have this feather in their cap.

And believe me, President Obama wants peace and justice in the Middle East. If there was any "ploy" as you have stated, it was toward this end.

The president and his party are in deep trouble here in the United States.
He has failed to fulfill many of his campaign promises. Many people are angry because of the recession and the economy has not recovered like it has in the past. The excessive government spending has angered many Americans. New Taxes, cap and trade, and a health care plan that will surely bankrupt the nation. His handling of the Gulf oil leak has been criticised across the board. The federal lawsuit against the state of Arizona,
and on and on etc. etc. And as his approval ratings continue to slide, the people are becoming more angry and frustrated. He is in deep deep ...t.

If there was one thing that could happen that would possibly negate all of these things, it would be to broker a just and lasting peace in the Middle East.......Hell, if he could pull this off he would have the presidency handed to him in the next election. It would be akin to President Nixon opening up the door to China. Nixon had his second term handed to him on a silver platter. The presidency was his for the asking. He never once, not once mentioned his opponents name during that campaign. I know of no other US presidential campaign where this happened. And Nixon won by a landslide during the Vietnam war and with Watergate knocking on his door.

Do not for one minute think that President Obama does not want peace and justice in the Middle East. If you think that he doesn't care, you insult my Western mentality.

So again I ask the question, What does the president have to gain politically by not advancing the peace process?

reply to post by LittleSecret


When was this "before"? fatah has been fighting Israel since forever, it started the first intifada in 87' and hasn't stopped since..
Are you old enough to even have been a grown up during 87'? What are you even talking about?
Zionism hopes?
Enough with those idiotic definitions.. Zionism is dead, it's done, whatever occupation is done now, it is not done in the name of Zionism, it's done in the name of political lobbies, leaders with no balls, who always try to please everyone so they end up doing nothing.
But they're not just given hope.. They're given money, and control, and they'll be given their lands back, rest assured..

My west mentality? I know this first hand, my girlfriend is an Arab Israeli and she goes to Rammalah and nablus and tells me what it's like.
Gaza's in a blockade, partly for the right reasons, and partly for the wrong ones.
There's another big difference- Gaza's killing people, fatah is trying to make peace.
Now what you're deliberately ignoring is that because of the fact that the fatah stopped being violent, it is now growing and flourishing compared to the hamas and Gaza, this is a direct result of pursuing peace.
If the government doesn't get its damn settlements out, though, they might lose their chance..

I agree, fatah is extremely corrupted. But not much more than hamas.
Do you want to know who has swimming pools in Gaza? Who has nice big houses with bunkers in the basements? Would you like to guess?
Would you like to guess who steals shipments of aid? Who eats well, and sleeps even better?
It's not the civilians of Gaza, I can assure you.

The Palestinians in the west bank are done with terror. They might think their government is corrupt, they might think abu mazen is weak, but they know they're doing much better than when they resorted to violence.
I know this for a fact, as I have many Arab friends.
And really, who wants violence? Only leaders go to war. Even the Israeli people never wanted violence, I'm sure the same is true for the people of Gaza and Palestine.

The sad thing about Gaza, and their elected government of hamas is that when we evacuated the settlements, we gave them full control over everything- The land, the waters, everything.
Hamas used this to tell the people- "See this? We drove them out of Gaza, elect us and we'll drive them all the way to tel aviv"..
So they spun the whole thing to their favor, and now instead of using the freedom that was given to them to advance, to make Gaza better, they used the territories that were evacuated not for building, but for launching rockets.
Also there was a crazy increase in the amounts of arms smuggled through sea, and the amount of rockets fired.
Israel caught two big ships full of weapons on their way to Gaza during that period.
So, yeah, it wasn't working out...
I hope you can relate as to why...

The tension did start when they lost to hamas, but I think they sort of went up a notch when hamas started butchering the fatah in the streets...
Hamas isn't legitimate. Hamas guns people down in the streets.
Do you seriously don't know that? Have you not seen the videos on youtube?
Whoever's feeding you these one sided biased opinions never told you any of this?
Why do you cling so hard to your opinion when you're so clearly wrong?
Hamas is not good, neither for the future of Palestine, nor for the future of Israel. It targets only civilians and its aim is to terrorize the people of Israel.
I have yet to see anything that they did in relations to Israel that was not for that purpose. It is a fact, undisputed.
Do you know what they did when Israel removed the ban on civilian commodities? They said it's a trick by Israel meant to convince the people of Gaza their for them.. That's because their power comes from inciting people against Israel, and not from any of their actions.

As for the settlements not being frozen- STUPID STUPID GOVERNMENT!!!

Jets were used only at the start of the operation, tanks are useless in an urban environment, white phosphor is easy to avoid, and nuclear missiles? If nukes were involved there would be no hamas.

As I said their biggest weapon is the urban environment they fight out of, it is impossible to fight in, you have no idea.
They don't need tanks, and jets or anything else. A man with an advanced anti tank missile is much better to them.
So don't make the mistake of thinking you know anything about guerrilla warfare. It might look uneven, and at times I agree, Israel's military superiority is an advantage. But hamas knows that the best way to fight is within their own people, using women and children as nothing more than sand bags. And if you tell me those are lies, and propaganda and what not, then I'd tell you that you are the one being fed lies. It happens, and that's a fact. They shoot out of schools, they rig zoos and civilian facilities, etc.
They're not stupid.

Home made? lol
You have no idea. They don't just cook it up in the kitchen, they have labs, and equipment brought from Iran and Lebanon.
Did you think you can make these rockets in your back yard out of hummus and dish washing liquid?

I 2009 348 people were killed in car accidents.
I don't think anyone was killed by fire worksץ
As for the rockets- 770 injured and 3 killed between 27.12.2008 - 19.1.2009.
I gave you an analogy for what it's like being under rocket attacks, haven't I? Use your imagination.

Let's untwist the facts, shall we?
Israel is not occupying Gaza, and therefor they should not have been shooting at us or at least should have given us a chance to pull out of the west bank instead of trying to murder our civilians.
Agreed?
So their right to resist is pretty much gone, and they've proven themselves to be no more than common thugs.
Speaking of Zionist hopes- Israel evicted people from there homes so that Gaza would be settlement free, we hoped this would bring peace. In reality they just used this to launch rockets further. That's hope for ya.
Uhhh... There was no blockade in 2005 after we left..
Are we even talking about the same conflict? Get your facts straight.
Israel never targeted civilians. In fact it warned them to get out of combat zones in Gaza.
What resources are you talking about?

The Palestinians used to blow up and massacre people in our streets.. Is that not a threat?
They were charged for war crimes too, BTW.

There. Untwisted for you.

reply to post by LittleSecret

Originally posted by LittleSecret

In the end I'm talking about justice.

No justice no peace.

No truth no justice.

Connect the dots.

I agree.
I'm just not sure you have the whole truth..

reply to post by LittleSecret


As for my "homeless" comment, IT WAS AN ANALOGY! As for calling me ignorant, that simply demonstrates your unwillingness to engage in a dialogue where two differing views are respected by both parties. Have a nice day.

reply to post by Eliad


I need a smoke after reading all of that lol..

By the time I finish my smoke I want to ask you to bring me some sources for every claim you made.

I do that too.

I don't want there to be facts, then in between the facts Israeli propaganda.

But if you don't want to bring sources, then I'll just reply to the main claims, won't go in to detail, because you haven't brought any sources to back the details.

This post will be edited soon

reply to post by Eliad


OK main points it is:

-Fatah has been fighting for ever:
--The true violence only started after second intifada:
Source:
post by LittleSecret


-Zionism is dead:
--Evidence suggests other wise, hence the continuous settlement expansion.

-Fatah is trying to make peace while Gaza is killing people:
--Already answered previously:
All Palestinians tried to make peace with Israel, didn't work, I provided sources, hence the OSLO ACCORD. It was the failure in Israel's part which brought violence, it wasn't the failure in Palestinian part.

When Yasser Arafat and Yitzak Rabin shook hands on the White House lawn in September 1993 there were about 115,000 Jewish settlers in West Bank and Gaza. By the time of the second intifada seven years later there were more than 200,000 of them. Reports suggest another 1,500 families (17,000 people) have been added to this total during 2001, more than the 400 settler families that have moved back to Israel under the impact of the intifada.

-West Bank is flourishing while Gaza is not:
--Already been answered, Gaza is under blockade, Gaza has been bombed to pieces, West Bank is not because more Jewish settlements are installed in West Bank.

-Hamas is as corrupt as Fatah:
--Not true, provide evidence.
Hamas came to power due to their civil programs which was to build schools, hospitals etc.. I don't see that as being corrupt.

-The Palestinians are doing better without resistance, hence West Bank:
--Nope, the Palestinians are doing better due to their submission to Israel, allowing Israel to continue its settlements and occupy more land, and continue occupation.

-Israel withdrew from Gaza giving all control to Palestinians:
--No, wrong, even after the withdrawal Gaza's borders, airspace, sea port were under Israeli control.

Palestinian American attorney Gregory Khalil said “Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water to enter or leave the Gaza Strip. Its troops may not be there... but it still restricts the ability for the Palestinian authority to exercise control.”[22] Human Rights Watch also contested that this ended the occupation

-Israel caught to big ships filled with weapons:
--That is evidence that Gaza was still under control of Israel, and is under control of Israel, if they left Gaza to its people then that means they can bring any good they like, they have the same rights as Israel, to brings arms for self defense, to bring construction materials to build, to bring humanitarian good for people, to export, to import etc.

-Hamas started butchering Fatah in the streets:
--In the Palestinian parliamentary elections held on January 25, 2006,

Hamas won a plurality of 42.9% of the total vote and 74 out of 132 total seats (56%).[30][31] When Hamas assumed power the next month, the Israeli government and the key players of the international community, the United States and the EU refused to recognize its right to govern the Palestinian Authority. Direct aid to the Palestinian government there was cut off, although some of that money was redirected to humanitarian organizations not affiliated with the government.[32] The resulting political disorder and economic stagnation led to many Palestinians emigrating from the Gaza Strip.[33]

In January 2007, fighting erupted between Hamas and Fatah.

-Military superiority doesn't matter due to gorrilla warfare:
--

At least 11 people have been injured by Israeli air strikes targeting Gaza's airport, Palestinian officials say.
The Israeli military confirmed the missile strikes near Rafah, in southern Gaza, which it said targeted militants.

-"I gave you an analogy for what it's like being under rocket attacks, haven't I?"
--Yes you did, but what does that have to do with my analogy that more people die from car crash than home made fireworks thrown towards Israel?

I 2009 348 people were killed in car accidents.

If you use the same propaganda techniques used to justify the treatment of Palestinians, you could also treat Jewish motorists the same way, get it? Infact Jewish motorists are more of a national security threat than Hamas home made fireworks.



Now for the untwisting part:

Israel is not occupying Gaza, and therefor they should not have been shooting at us or at least should have given us a chance to pull out of the west bank instead of trying to murder our civilians.

Gaza was and still is under occupation:

In his statement on the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on "the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories" wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel "in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war."

Palestinian American attorney Gregory Khalil said “Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water to enter or leave the Gaza Strip. Its troops may not be there... but it still restricts the ability for the Palestinian authority to exercise control.

Speaking of Zionist hopes- Israel evicted people from there homes so that Gaza would be settlement free, we hoped this would bring peace. In reality they just used this to launch rockets further. That's hope for ya.

Nope they were forced to leave, it was the resistance which force the Israeli government to leave that land because they couldn't expand its settlements anymore due to resistance. Even after they left the occupation was still under effect.

After the Hamas takeover Israel announced it would allow only basic humanitarian supplies into the Strip.[59] Israel closed off all remaining access to Gaza.[60] The blockade allowed Israel to control the flow of goods going into Gaza, including power and water.

Between 2005 and 2007, Palestinian groups in Gaza fired about 2,700 locally-made Qassam rockets into Israel, killing four Israeli civilians and injuring 75 others. During the same period, Israel fired more than 14,600 155mm artillery shells into the Gaza Strip, killing 59 Palestinians and injuring 270.

Continue to next post

[edit on 20-6-2010 by LittleSecret]

[edit on 21-6-2010 by LittleSecret]

reply to post by LittleSecret

Uhhh... There was no blockade in 2005 after we left..

After the Hamas takeover Israel announced it would allow only basic humanitarian supplies into the Strip.[59] Israel closed off all remaining access to Gaza.[60] The blockade allowed Israel to control the flow of goods going into Gaza, including power and water. Israel halted all exports

Israel never targeted civilians. In fact it warned them to get out of combat zones in Gaza.
What resources are you talking about?

www.youtube.com...
Check the weapons of Israel, and the war crime accusation, make sure you watch the whole video.

The Palestinians used to blow up and massacre people in our streets.. Is that not a threat?
They were charged for war crimes too, BTW.

They were charged with war crimes because they didn't have guided missiles, or drones to target the military.

There. Untwisted for you.

Hope you watch that video.

Edit to add sources:
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

The first post keys:

(-) your claim
(--) my response

[edit on 20-6-2010 by LittleSecret]

Edit to add:
West Bank:
www.youtube.com...

[edit on 20-6-2010 by LittleSecret]

Edit to add:

West Bank:

Palestinians, protesting Israel's settlement policy, clashed with Israeli troops near the West Bank city of Nablus. A 16-year-old Palestinian was killed in the violence.

It seems people are not happy with continuous settlement expansion.



[edit on 20-6-2010 by LittleSecret]

reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth


Your question:

Again I ask the question, What does President Obama have to gain politically by the continuing hostilities between Israeli's and Palestinians?........the answer, NOT A DAMED THING!

As I said previously, THE US is controlled by Israel and not the other way around.

Obama is just another puppet, just like Karzai, or the previous Shah of Iran.

That is the exact reason why America's policy never changes in regards to Israel.

Think about it, Israel bombed 59 medical fascilities in Gaza, huge evidence points towards Israeli war crimes, watch:
www.youtube.com...

This is available even for President Obama to see, but he is the president, so he probably gets even more than this:

Now think again, why did the US VETO the condemnation of Israel, again?

Then the Flotilla, again?

The US Secretary of State has slammed the findings of a United Nations report on Israel's war crimes against people of Gaza.

Addressing the annual meeting of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Clinton condemned the Goldstone report, calling it "deeply flawed."

The United States has "repeatedly voted against the deeply flawed Goldstone Report," Clinton boasted.

So once again, why does Obama, just like Bush, just like Clinton, just like.... have the same exact policy in regards to Israel?

Easy answer, because US is controlled by Israel, not the other way around.

Why does every US supposed leader prioritize Israel's interests before the US?

Bill Clinton attempted to free a convicted Israeli spy in a US prison but was rebuffed by American judicial and military officials. At the end of his term, he also issued an 'executive pardon' for another convicted criminal with dual US and Israeli citizenship who was a major contributor to the Tel Aviv regime.

reply to post by LittleSecret


I watched the YouTube video and am currently reading the Goldstone report. It might take a while. It's 575 pages. I will try to read as much as possible in the days and weeks to come.

War is hell my friend, lets hope this conflict deescalates before it engulfs the whole world.

Talk at you later.

Originally posted by Axial Leader

How come every time I meet a Palestinian or an Israeli here in the USA they appear to be remarkably civil, friendly, intelligent, polite? I have met many people from that region, from both sides, and also from Syria and Lebanon.

All of these people strike me as a very attractive and philosophical bunch of people who are quite compassionate and tolerant. It is actually a very distinguishing feature of both the Palestinians and Israelis I have met.

Do you think it is because they are on their "best behavior" while visiting here?

Maybe the pressure associated with living in that region is so intense and horrible that, when they escape to America for a visit or a vacation, it is a total pleasure for them, which brightens their whole demeanor?

Or maybe, when they come to the USA for a while, they get a sense of perspective on how pointless the Palestinian and Israeli conflict actually is, and they experience some sort of revelation?

Or maybe, only the more intelligent, serene, and affluent get the opportunity to travel here?

Or is there something weird about that region of our planet, which drives people who actually live there slightly insane?

Or is it something else?

I don't know the answer. That is why I am asking.

They are experience some sort of "revelation" from/in U.S with the currant problems of what_is happening to the U.S? I do not think so.

I am sure it is due to some_level of having a "best behavior" situation, but there would be other reasons, aswell.

Maybe they just want to "get away from it all"... and visit America, for a holiday/vacation type.

Some, but all do of the more intelligent, serene, and affluent get the opportunity to travel to the U.S, but as for other's, I personaly think it is due for personal reasons, aswell as for other events that they would_need to want to travel to the U.S.

Because of thier are 'other countries' in the world, that they can escape too, but why to U.S?

reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth


Thank you for taking your time to examine the information provided, I appreciate it, at least I feel like i haven't waste my time with my responses

Because the nypd is here to kick either palestenians or israelis ass if they do something wrong...there is no Nypd over there to watch them...